Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Thanks, jencar and Mardelin for explaining wrapping. Does anyone here have pictures of their dog wrapped?

Also, I was wondering if someone could provide a short "CHIC for Dummies" post (or reference) for the rest of us trying to keep up.

CHIC stands for Canine Health Information Center. It's a health database.

Canine Health Information Center

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I agree with you here but I understand AKC's point too. AKC is a breed registry. They DNA tested numerous litters and living generations of this parti line and they spoke to old time breeders who saw parti show up in their own litters ... AKC feels as I do, that they are Yorkshire terriers because of their PUREBRED bloodlines and AKC understands how recessive genes work.

By allowing these colors to be registered against YTCA's wishes (obviously), it has created a mess.

But here's an example of how genes can hide for many generations. The American Morgan Horse assoc. put a rule in the books 50 years ago, called the high white/blue eye rule, it was like the parti DQ rule. It was put in place because a single line of morgans started producing pinto coloring and the Morgan standard called for black, brown, chestnut or bay horses with minimal white markings. This rule, denied horses with white above the knee or blue eyes to be registered (trying to keep the pinto genes out of the gene pool).

In the 80's blood typing became mandatory for registering foals and in the late 90's to the early 2000's, it was switched over to DNA. Then in 1996, the rule was repealed and it was felt by many, that the pinto gene had been erridacated from the gene pool but minimally white marked horses (who were actually carrying different genes for pinto coloring) began throwing louder marked foals with white over the knee and sometimes belly spots. I had my own surprise pinto foal born that year and I must have called the registry 5 times in 24 hours to see if I could register him. Luckily, he was born 3 months after the repeal of the High White rule so I named him High White Revolution aka, Rebel and he's registered with the American Morgan Horse assoc and double registered with a pinto registry, he's a minimally marked sabino with stockings above the hock, 8 inch belly spot, other various disconnect small spots and an apron blaze. This is where my interest in color genetics began.

PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums - slide show of Rebel, 4 of the photos are when I owned him.

Today, 50 years after the High white rule began and 25 years after parental verification started through blood typing and/or DNA, here are two examples of how pinto coloring is popping up out of minimally marked parents - these two horses are the loudest marked Morgans that I'm aware of, both get their pinto markings through the splash gene.

http://memcmorgans.com/Tiger/Tiger-ad.jpg

pinto news

My point here is that these sneaky spotting genes, can hide in the form of "accepted" minimal white markings in animals for many generations. It happened in the Morgan breed and it happened in the Yorkshire Terrier breed as well.

The difference in your example with horses and with Yorkshires is that Yorkshires have never allowed white markings at all, except for those present at birth which turn tan/gold as the dog matures.

I'm not fully versed on the dilutes but that is apparently what is happening with the horses. If you take 2 minimally marked horses, which, according to your post is acceptable, and bred them, you could expect there to be a foal with more white than either parent at times. I could liken that to breeding two 7 pound Yorkies (acceptable size) together. You may not only get 7 pound offspring, but actually have pups bigger than either parent. You are essentially exaggerating an acceptable trait into something not acceptable. Then if you were to breed the bigger pups, resulting offspring could go even larger.

I believe that if one were to breed 2 Yorkies together that were barely dark enough to have the acceptable steel blue, some pups would be lighter than either parent, due to exaggerating the dilution factor, and fall into the unacceptable category. Now it's not so cut and dry, with each breeding having its own particulars, but the point is to be selective enough to not exaggerate any fault in future generations.

You have probably heard, as well as I, that some breeders have in the past used red leg Yorkies to preserve the color. Coat color is apparently not some static feature that can be just duplicated generation after generation. My feeling is that, if you breed a fault to a fault, you not only re-produce that fault, but in some instances will exaggerate it. That's where selective breeding comes into play to maintain and preserve a standard.

All this discussion of how a certain color came to be in an animal is a really a moot point, however. The Yorkshire terrier has always been a blue and tan dog, AKC registration notwithstanding. Some of the old breeders may have been illiterate, but they sure knew what they were doing with the Yorkshire. Their knowledge may have come through trial and error, but they got it right in drawing up the first standard. It has been tweaked since then, but has never allowed for any white on a mature Yorkie. Your example with the horses shows to me why they were right.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Maximo

There was a discussion about this in the show section this summer. Gemy and CarlyBaby's champion Yorkies live very active lives in wraps. Several other exhibitors indicated that their show dogs are not restricted in any way.

Tegamom1 also posted a pic of her CJ, freshly taken out of his wraps.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Your example with the horses shows to me why they were right.

Sorry you feel that way but luckily the AMHA didn't. If the AMHA followed the standard word for word, this breed would probably be extinct now. Not many people over 5 feet tall want to ride a 14 hand pony, but through the blood of the different mares bred by Justin Morgan; some mares having more size, more refinement or more color to pass onto their offspring, the versatile morgan has something to attract every morgan lover. From cutting and roping through the Western Working bloodlines, to the more refined and higher stepping park and english pleasure horses. Color is the icing on the cake because some people want something that stands out from the crowd. The Pinto coloration will drawn in new buyers who may have always loved the look of the morgan but wanted the coloring seen in paint horse. It's a win/win situation.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

Sorry you feel that way but luckily the AMHA didn't. If the AMHA followed the standard word for word, this breed would probably be extinct now. Not many people over 5 feet tall want to ride a 14 hand pony, but through the blood of the different mares bred by Justin Morgan; some mares having more size, more refinement or more color to pass onto their offspring, the versatile morgan has something to attract every morgan lover. From cutting and roping through the Western Working bloodlines, to the more refined and higher stepping park and english pleasure horses. Color is the icing on the cake because some people want something that stands out from the crowd. The Pinto coloration will drawn in new buyers who may have always loved the look of the morgan but wanted the coloring seen in paint horse. It's a win/win situation.

Not being a horse person, I was only trying to point out how the increased white may appear, and relate that to Yorkshires, and selective breeding, in general. I assume that was why you used the horses in your earlier post.

I don't think the rationale you give in the last couple sentences in the above post should carry over to the Yorkshire Terrier. Not sure it should even apply to horses, but then, I'm no horse person.

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Thanks, jencar and Mardelin for explaining wrapping. Does anyone here have pictures of their dog wrapped?

Also, I was wondering if someone could provide a short "CHIC for Dummies" post (or reference) for the rest of us trying to keep up.

I just received permission to post this. It tells how to get a CHIC number for a yorkshire terrier. I don't know if it'll reprint correctly but you can get the idea.

 The CHIC Checklist
There is NO pass or fail with CHIC. It's about completing the two screening tests, Patellar Luxation and CERF and releasing the results. Every dog will get a number.

Before taking your dog in for these exams be sure that it is either micro chipped (preferable) or tattooed.

OFA Patellar Luxation - minimum 1 year of age
Please note - this is a manual exam performed by a general practitioner and must be done GENTLY. Do not let the vet torque the dogs leg or handle the leg roughly. STOP the exam if you feel the Vet is hurting your dog.
NEVER ALLOW YOUR VET TO CONDUCT THIS EXAM WHILE THE DOG IS SEDATED OR UNDER ANESTHESIA!!!! The dog must be awake and standing for the exam.
1. Go to the OFA Web site. http://www.offa.org/pdf/plappbw.pdf. At this addy you'll find the form that you fill out for the Patellar Luxation exam. You can fill it out on your computer, print it out and take it with you to the vet. Your vet needs to fill out the exam portion and sign this form.
 2. Please note - in the middle of your form is a black box. It's titled Authorization to Release Abnormal Results. If there is any luxation you must initial that box to receive a CHIC number. Right above the black box is the line for the signature of owner or authorized representative. Be sure to sign there also.
 3. At the bottom of the form you'll find the list of fees. Send a check or you can provide a credit card number.
 4. The mailing address is at the top of the form.
You mail this form is to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals OFA. They will send the information to CHIC so there is nothing more you need to do.
CERF -Canine Eye Registration Foundation - no minimum age
 1. Make an appointment with an Ophthalmologist. This test CANNOT be performed by a general practitioner. A list of Ophthalmologists in each state can be found at CERF - ACVO Clinic List. Call vets and compare prices. Some will offer eye exams at excellent prices, especially if you bring in more than one dog. Check for CERF clinics at dog shows.
 2. Take your dog's AKC information with you. The form will be provided by the vet. Allow extra time to fill the forms out.
 3. The exam takes only a few minutes and causes no discomfort. Because the eyes are dilated you don't want to do this exam right before showing the dog.
 4. Fill out the required information on the back of the copy that the Dr. gives you, and mail it to CERF with the required fees.
 5. CERF will send the information to CHIC for you.
 6. One CERF exam is needed for a CHIC number.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Totally OT question... what is done when a yorkie's hair is "wrapped" for showing? I've seen this referred to a lot, but never really understood it. How long do the wraps stay in for, and is the dog restricted from activity while they are in?

Wraps are in 24/7 You can see Razzman if you go to my profile and the video posted there, swimming and retreiving in wraps. they do not interfere with his movement, as long as you wrap to clear movement through the joints; eg: above the knee and below the knee without wrapping across the knee.

As Mary said they are changed/inspected daily and dogs can be washed twice a week, dependent on the activity level of the dog.

I do remember one day, just washing, blowdrying, rewrapping Razzle, and my Hubby came home and decided to take the scamp for a walk, well we had had rain that day, they came home happily splattered with mud, had a grand ole time. I almost cried. Back to the bathtub we did go. He said but honey that is why you wrap him, so he can play and fetch and have fun. Well yes of course, but not in the MUD! Of course these were the early days, now hubby knows better

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Not being a horse person, I was only trying to point out how the increased white may appear, and relate that to Yorkshires, and selective breeding, in general. I assume that was why you used the horses in your earlier post.

I don't think the rationale you give in the last couple sentences in the above post should carry over to the Yorkshire Terrier. Not sure it should even apply to horses, but then, I'm no horse person.

The point to the story being, that if AMHA strictly followed and enforced the standards as they were written originally written, the breed would have died out. Justin Morgan was a 14 hand, stocky built work horse. But by allowing the genes that were already in our horses (coming from of the various different mares who were bred to this one stallion) the morgan breed is now more than just a short, little dark horse with no white.

The breed standard has changed over the years - I don't believe color is even listed in the breed standard any longer but back in the 1990's the only colors listed in the standard was black, brown, bay and chestnut with the only white being in the form of sock, stocking, star, stripe, snip.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by gemy

Wraps are in 24/7 You can see Razzman if you go to my profile and the video posted there, swimming and retreiving in wraps. they do not interfere with his movement, as long as you wrap to clear movement through the joints; eg: above the knee and below the knee without wrapping across the knee.

As Mary said they are changed/inspected daily and dogs can be washed twice a week, dependent on the activity level of the dog.

I do remember one day, just washing, blowdrying, rewrapping Razzle, and my Hubby came home and decided to take the scamp for a walk, well we had had rain that day, they came home happily splattered with mud, had a grand ole time. I almost cried. Back to the bathtub we did go. He said but honey that is why you wrap him, so he can play and fetch and have fun. Well yes of course, but not in the MUD! Of course these were the early days, now hubby knows better

Radar went to the beach with us and swam in his wraps and OMG you should have seen the sand that came out of his wraps when we got home LOL...he's gone swimming in the swimming pool in wraps, he chases my yorkies through all the red oak leaves that is covering my yard UGH and drags them in the house through the doggie door is now sleeping at my feet on a woolie blanket, not satin, always does in the winter. He's lived in wraps since he's been 18 months old and it's like second nature to him. He's a normal healthy pet as well as a normal healthy show dog. I was told a long time ago I needed to keep him in an xpen and no carpet, no grass ect...to have a nice long flowing coat but as most have seen in his pictures his coat is long and flowing

Donna

[gemy]

Donna he has a beautiful coat. But thank god I don't live near a beach, the sand would dry me crazy!!

Mostly we go to fresh water Lakes, after all I live right on Lake Ontario. But when we went camping to Lake superior (prior Razz) there was a big beach before the water, and oh boy did Magic every accumulate sand in his hair. Every night I had to put him up on the picnic table and brush him all out before bedtime.

We are thinking of PEI next summer, and I'm current looking for a house that has an outside shower, so our day at the beach can end with all pups getting hosed off from the sand. I can't wait to see PEI, it is supposed to be beautiful. Then we will let most air dry (except Razz), and I use an undercoat called muddypaws, this protects their legs and underbellies so when they lay down in the grass or patio they are protected from burrs, sand bugs,etc. I'm just a little concerned for razz's coat I use Plush Puppy SPF for the big dogs, do you use that product for your Yorkies? I'm considering keeping him in his wrapping jacket otherwise. This should give good sun protection except for his top knot. What about if I use the plastic wrapper over the paper one for the top knot? What do you think?

[Rhetts_mama]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

The point to the story being, that if AMHA strictly followed and enforced the standards as they were written originally written, the breed would have died out. Justin Morgan was a 14 hand, stocky built work horse. But by allowing the genes that were already in our horses (coming from of the various different mares who were bred to this one stallion) the morgan breed is now more than just a short, little dark horse with no white.

The breed standard has changed over the years - I don't believe color is even listed in the breed standard any longer but back in the 1990's the only colors listed in the standard was black, brown, bay and chestnut with the only white being in the form of sock, stocking, star, stripe, snip.

Are you suggesting that without the addition of the Parti Coloring to the AKC standards, the Yorkie breed is going to "die out"?

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by gemy

Wraps are in 24/7 You can see Razzman if you go to my profile and the video posted there, swimming and retreiving in wraps. they do not interfere with his movement, as long as you wrap to clear movement through the joints; eg: above the knee and below the knee without wrapping across the knee.

As Mary said they are changed/inspected daily and dogs can be washed twice a week, dependent on the activity level of the dog.

I do remember one day, just washing, blowdrying, rewrapping Razzle, and my Hubby came home and decided to take the scamp for a walk, well we had had rain that day, they came home happily splattered with mud, had a grand ole time. I almost cried. Back to the bathtub we did go. He said but honey that is why you wrap him, so he can play and fetch and have fun. Well yes of course, but not in the MUD! Of course these were the early days, now hubby knows better

I looked at the video, but it looks like he is wearing some type of suit under the life jacket? Are those the wraps? Also, is his head hair cut short? I'm still confused.

Razzle is one cute and talented doggie!

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

The point to the story being, that if AMHA strictly followed and enforced the standards as they were written originally written, the breed would have died out. Justin Morgan was a 14 hand, stocky built work horse. But by allowing the genes that were already in our horses (coming from of the various different mares who were bred to this one stallion) the morgan breed is now more than just a short, little dark horse with no white.

The breed standard has changed over the years - I don't believe color is even listed in the breed standard any longer but back in the 1990's the only colors listed in the standard was black, brown, bay and chestnut with the only white being in the form of sock, stocking, star, stripe, snip.

The Yorkshire Terrier is in no danger of dying out without changing the standard, so the Morgan horse analogy isn't very useful. Plus, I'm not sure why a horse that had been around for 200 years needed a standard change (rescinding the high white rule) in 1996 to keep it from dying out. Or are there other changes you are referring to?

I will say that you got me to looking around, though. Apparently, there is no separate breed club that sets the standard for the Morgans (such as the YTCA) and no overall registry (as in AKC). The Morgan horse has its own registry that sets its own standard, if I'm reading it right.

A couple of things I did notice. If you go to the AMHA site Morgan Ideal - AMHA, right at first you'll see 2 horses that are described as 'ideal'. Neither has the large areas of white. I did see some sites that has breeders advertising 'classic' Morgans, so there are those sticking with the old standard, whether the registry does or not.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by gemy

Donna he has a beautiful coat. But thank god I don't live near a beach, the sand would dry me crazy!!

Mostly we go to fresh water Lakes, after all I live right on Lake Ontario. But when we went camping to Lake superior (prior Razz) there was a big beach before the water, and oh boy did Magic every accumulate sand in his hair. Every night I had to put him up on the picnic table and brush him all out before bedtime.

We are thinking of PEI next summer, and I'm current looking for a house that has an outside shower, so our day at the beach can end with all pups getting hosed off from the sand. I can't wait to see PEI, it is supposed to be beautiful. Then we will let most air dry (except Razz), and I use an undercoat called muddypaws, this protects their legs and underbellies so when they lay down in the grass or patio they are protected from burrs, sand bugs,etc. I'm just a little concerned for razz's coat I use Plush Puppy SPF for the big dogs, do you use that product for your Yorkies? I'm considering keeping him in his wrapping jacket otherwise. This should give good sun protection except for his top knot. What about if I use the plastic wrapper over the paper one for the top knot? What do you think?

I just use Coat Handlers shampoo, put him in oil and wraps. I don't use a wrapping jacket at all. Radar isn't out in the sun for very long...he suns some when it's just like in the 70's or low 80's but for the most part he's in and out the doggie door LOL...he goes out when he wants and comes in when he wants along with the others LOL...

[gemy]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I looked at the video, but it looks like he is wearing some type of suit under the life jacket? Are those the wraps? Also, is his head hair cut short? I'm still confused.

Razzle is one cute and talented doggie!

He has his wrapping jacket on over the wraps, and then the life jacket on top of that. I learnt the hard way to put that wrapping jacket on when using the life jacket. The life jacket is all velcro ties, and the first time in the winter we went swimming, I simply put the life jacket on. When we finished the swim, I about cried because the life jacket stuck to his hair in all sorts of places, and I had to pull the hair away from the velcro.

On his topknot those white things are wraps. You can see some white wraps sticking out from underneath the silk wrapping jacket. Also my photo album shows him in wraps