Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Raymond's Mom

I will answer and my view point is from one who is not in favor of the parti color movement.
How they ever showed up in the breed is a question that can never be answered. But the fact is that they're here and people are breeding them because they want to be first, to try to develop something new. There are white german shepherds, parti color poodles, white boxers and schnauzers, etc. and all are put in the category of mismarks and are not desired in the breed. That's how most feel about parti colored yorkies. They cost so much because there truly is a "sucker born every minute". They cannot be shown in AKC conformation shows. The parti color yorkie and off color yorkie is a DQ in this breed.

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

Thank you. Same as the Cane Corso that i have. White, except for a small patch is a disqualification. Unless the standard is white, why breed for it? I agree about the sucker a minute. Why anyone would pay $6,000 for one that can't be shown is unbelievable, unless they show in ARBA.

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Here are her exact words. When she says they, she is referring to Parti owners:

Debra, I feel very calm about this whole matter and have all day. However, you keep shouting using all caps (as above) at anyone who seems to step into this thread with a thought that differs from your line of thinking.

If you're asking for temperance, it would seem appropriate to give it as well. I haven't seen anyone behave 'intemperately' yet. I'm not sure how to ask people not to feel *personal* about their opinions/thoughts/feelings about a subject....so I can't really offer anything there.

All members are welcome to post on this thread. Members are also welcome to having different opinions, as I've stated innumerable times. I too am a member, and have the privilege of expressing my opinion on this thread. Thanks.

I think I have remained very temperant -- I have exercised self-control when I have been accused of saying things I did not say, when my words are twisted, when the thread has been hijacked over and over with sometimes very false information having nothing to do with the discussion, sometimes irelevant information, and sometimes ... I am not sure what. I tried to explain to you that no one was calling you a sucker. I did that in caps to get specific attention to what I thought was the most important message to you in my post. I forget that internet thing about caps = yelling which I wish they had never started. I did think it was only frowned on if you use caps for your whole post. That was the only time I ever saw anyone complain.

I wrote Training Manuals for a living -- caps were headings, caps were used for emphasis, caps were used to focus attention --caps never meant yelling in that world. But even if they were to mean yelling -- would that always be a negative? Couldn't you use punctuated "yelling caps" for emphasis, for attention-getting, for good things even?

I do use a lot of capitals, color changes, bold, underlines, etc. to show emphasis on certain passages in my posts -- always have and it was never an issue until here and now. Funny as I have been doing it since 2006. I will try to refrain from it if you want, but I find it breaks up a long post and makes things stand out that I want to emphasize. But I am not yelling. Is it only the capitals that are a problem? Can I still use bold/underlines & color changes? I tend to make long posts and without something to break it up or help in a quick scan.....they might get skipped (sheepish grin) altogether.

The question was asked why they (partis) cost so much. It was answered with an unfortunate choice of words (the sucker comment) but I took that to only refer to those paying exorbinant prices and not all of the parti owners. I do not think anyone would have tried to intimate that every one of our parti-owners was a sucker! (Exclamation point for emphasis and not for yelling or intemperance). I was pretty sure that you knew that too and that is what I said. But maybe you don't think that. If that is the case, I really am sorry -- sorry that you would think any members here would think that, let alone post it. I am not saying you don't have the right to feel that way either, so please don't turn this on me too -- I am just saying I am sorry you would have those feelings as I know that would make you feel bad. I hope I am getting this worded so as not to be misunderstood or misinterpreted yet again. Think empathy, sympathy, compassion, and genuine caring for my fellow YT member here!!

I never asked anyone not to post here in this thread or another? I have asked that we stay to topic and that we try to provide more reference than opinion but that seems to be a lost cause. I surely never asked you not to post! I definately have not asked that any stay away because of their opinions -- I asked that both sides be represented. I wanted a all-sided discussion not just one! So, I am not sure why you would advise me on everyone's posting rights. I don't want to assume anything by it.

I would never presume to deny you or anyone else their opinion or feelings, I was just so hoping we could get a really good parti thread with BOTH sides presenting facts, historical information, and references and maybe, just maybe we could get it into a sticky for future reference. I truly wanted a thread without silly fighting, an intelligent sharing of information. I think I can do it without being personal. I can also do it without twisting meaning, words, or going completely off topic. Part of the temperance thing I spoke of before. Temperance does not just mean being calm.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Just like alot of you want to pick and choose what Parti color yorkies sell for?
I am so tired of seeing they sell for 5,000.00 to 7,000 when in fact they do not. There are more traditional color yorkies selling for exuberant prices than partis.
Again alot of you want to place blanket statements about the parti's, its either the standard, the price, the health or we are all just bad people for breeding parti's.
I cannot speak for everyone, but I do know that I have extensive knowledge in dog breeding and Raised Champion Brittanys for over 15 years. I know what it takes to breed great healthy dogs, no matter the color. I do Health testing on all my dogs. I do not sell any of my pups for exuberant prices or market them as rare and am quite frankly getting tired of some of you making these kinds of blanket statements.
Just a few pics of my awards and dogs.

I didn't say anything about them costing that much so why are you posting it to me? I simply explained what someone said -- and there are Parti-s selling for $6,000 which is what was said in the post I mentioned. Now you CAN quote me as I am saying it. (Caps for emphasis and maybe a little raised voice but not a yell) In fact here are a couple of examples: DreamParti yorkie -- selling teacup partis for $4000-$6000, Texas Parti yorkies are a little less though -- going for up to $4500. I also said I didn't like it any more than I did traditional yorkie breeders charging that much. I made a very equalizing comment and you are now giving me heck for saying some "blanket statement?" Why is it you cannot hold a debate with me without trying to slant the comments or attribute all sorts of things to me that I did not say? I also did not say anything about parti breeders being bad people -- I didn't read anyone else saying it either. Where are you getting that one? I don't think I am making any of these blanket statements you are talking about. Never mentioned much of anything you are slamming me for in this post.

Tell the truth -- is this a tactic y'all thought up in advance? Get me spending so much time answering a lot of false accusations and I would have no time to post relevant information contrary to your opinion? Clever.

It is hard to get used to not using caps for emphasis! I had to go back and change a few to underline which are harder as I have to use the Underline feature instead of just the shift key as I typed. I like caps better.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Mardelin, What Selected Awards?

Yes, I feel health testing in the most important when it comes to breeding. But how truthful are those tests?

FlDebra, It was only a few months ago,on 9/14/10 that there were only 38 yorkies that were certified. Now you are stating all YTCA dogs in the ring have been certified...where is that documentation or is that just your opinion?
I also have to ask why the AKC is not even requiring (just recommending) bile acid tests with the Yorkie even though they have one of the highest % of liver shunt dogs in all the breeds? Where is the health concern there?

The following is just one small part of the two articles...

”Who would admit that their OFA certified dog became crippled or the CERF certified dog went blind? Not the vets, not the breeders, and least of all, the burgeoning health registries that were raking in . OFA doesn’t care that less than 5% of owners ever re-certify a dog's hips or elbows due to expense, radiation exposure, or anesthesia risk. That alone makes a mockery of hip certification. But it gets worse. The priceless clear-hips certificate may not belong to that dog. Substitution has become so common that breeders joke about dogs that "glow in the dark."

HEALTH CERTIFICATION (1) PERSPECTIVES, by Barbara J. Andrews

CERTIFYING HEALTH CERTIFICATION & TESTING, by Barbara J. Andrews

My post said OFA/CERF certification which has been around for a whole lot longer than a year! Try over 40 years for OFA!! Maybe you are talking CHIC but you know my post said OFA/CERF because you quoted it! So, here i am again answering to something I did not say. But I will not yell

You must have anticipated my justifying the certification since you are also saying the tests themselves are no good either. Wow -- covered all the bases on that one. I do notice you say your dogs are tested. Are you just wasting your money? What yardstick do you propose we use instead? Maybe we should just throw everything out -- no standards, no testing -- everyone just breed whatever you want? Is that what you are saying? (See how I ask you if you are saying that instead of just putting words in your mouth?) BTW .... since you are referring to CHIC.... they do require that "each dog be permanently identified in order to have test results included in CHIC. Permanent identification may be in the form of microchip or tattoo." So maybe that will cut down on your "glow in the dark" dogs.

Pretty good huh? Made it through addressing all those accusations and still not yelling! I am going for the poster child of temperance. So missing my caps though!

[Woogie Man]

Beyond some old historical mentions of off-colored dogs and generic explanations of the piebald gene, there's not really much to say about partis that doesn't get into opinions. One curious thing...there's mentions of off colored dogs early on, then no mention at all for many years, and then they pop up again in recent years. I'm pretty sure what parti fanciers would say to this, but the re-emergence of these dogs after so many years makes me wonder.

The thing about the pure bred dog world is that there are standards for each breed and, IMO, those standards should be followed.

This was posted earlier from Webster's.....

"Definition of PUREBRED according to the merriam-webster definition is:

bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without a mixture of other blood over many generations".

I would just say that the 'recognized strain', as pertains to the Yorkshire Terrier, has always been that of a blue and tan dog. There has never been a standard for this breed that included any other colors. My belief is that, when in doubt, always refer back to the standard.

One other thing about this subject is the decision by the AKC to allow a parti designation in registering Yorkies. It goes against the parent club, which sets the standard. To me, this only fuels the debate and muddies the water on what the average person should make of this.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Beyond some old historical mentions of off-colored dogs and generic explanations of the piebald gene, there's not really much to say about partis that doesn't get into opinions. One curious thing...there's mentions of off colored dogs early on, then no mention at all for many years, and then they pop up again in recent years. I'm pretty sure what parti fanciers would say to this, but the re-emergence of these dogs after so many years makes me wonder.

The thing about the pure bred dog world is that there are standards for each breed and, IMO, those standards should be followed.

This was posted earlier from Webster's.....

"Definition of PUREBRED according to the merriam-webster definition is:

bred from members of a recognized breed, strain, or kind without a mixture of other blood over many generations".

I would just say that the 'recognized strain', as pertains to the Yorkshire Terrier, has always been that of a blue and tan dog. There has never been a standard for this breed that included any other colors. My belief is that, when in doubt, always refer back to the standard.

One other thing about this subject is the decision by the AKC to allow a parti designation in registering Yorkies. It goes against the parent club, which sets the standard. To me, this only fuels the debate and muddies the water on what the average person should make of this.

I have tried and tried to find substantiated information about the "white" showing up early in the breeding of our Yorkies. You are right -- everything comes back to something they think happened or heard happened. But then I was reminded....does it really matter? If it was in there early, why indeed did it sort of "go away and re-emerge" so long after? Could it be that ethical breeders only bred the yorkies that MET the standard? The rare occasional white color went to a pet home and if they were not bred, they rarely reoccur. Makes sense to me. Parti's did not really start showing up with frequency until Mr. Biewer made his dogs "famous" and they were also being sold for much higher prices than standard yorkies. The question to me is even if some did suddenly reappear in the Yorkshire lines..... should the trait be bred for? Where would it stop if we decided to adjust the Yorkshire Terrier Standard to accomodate the people who like parti-colors?

Let's take some of the other Yorkshire standards -- how about ears? Do we really need to adhere to upright, pointed ears? Some love their floppy eared dogs! Some yorkies are born with thicker ears that stay floppy no matter what a breeder does. Some aren't even pointed, but more rounded. Maybe we could okay those too. If we start only breeding the floppy eared dogs to each other, pretty soon they will all be floppy ears in our lines! Would it be fair to okay a change to standard for the color and not the ears?

How about body structure? Is it necessary to have a compact "square" body? Why not start breeding those with the longest bodies with each other? Might be able to get a dachshund-shaped yorkie eventually! And is a straight topline really that important? How about size? Should we change that too -- maybe increase the maximum to 25 pounds? See where this is going? Pretty soon, there is little of the traditional yorkie so many great breeders spent so many years perfecting. Lifetimes have been devoted to our blue and tan beauties. I just want to see that future generations get to enjoy them.

[Woogie Man]

I'm all out of anything but opinions , but I do think that breeding for a fault....any fault, only sets a breed back in the larger sense. Not to say that off standard dogs don't turn up, even in good lines, but there's a big difference between having an off standard dog pop up in a litter as opposed to breeding for them.

BTW, I love teapots!!

[QuickSilver]

Totally OT question... what is done when a yorkie's hair is "wrapped" for showing? I've seen this referred to a lot, but never really understood it. How long do the wraps stay in for, and is the dog restricted from activity while they are in?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I think I have remained very temperant -- I have exercised self-control when I have been accused of saying things I did not say, when my words are twisted, when the thread has been hijacked over and over with sometimes very false information having nothing to do with the discussion, sometimes irelevant information, and sometimes ... I am not sure what. I tried to explain to you that no one was calling you a sucker. I did that in caps to get specific attention to what I thought was the most important message to you in my post. I forget that internet thing about caps = yelling which I wish they had never started. I did think it was only frowned on if you use caps for your whole post. That was the only time I ever saw anyone complain.

Debra, when I responded to some things you said - I quoted you verbatim, I didn't twist your words -- so accusing me or anyone else for that matter, seems like a way to deflect what was actually said. What you typed is still right there. I think what you seem to be so angry about is the way *I* (and others) intrepreted what was typed. And that was (and is) my interpretation, not yours.

Btw, we get several Reported Posts complaining of people 'yelling' - so maybe it's more familiar to me bc I have to deal with those posts. That said, there are plenty of posts here where people mention 'yelling', and address it right there on the thread. It's not new. Also, it's been in the YT Rules for years now.

Originally Posted by FlDebra

The question was asked why they (partis) cost so much. It was answered with an unfortunate choice of words (the sucker comment) but I took that to only refer to those paying exorbinant prices and not all of the parti owners. sorry that you would think any members here would think that, let alone post it.

Like I said before - you are welcome to have your own perception, as are all other members here. Because you 'took it' one way, does not mean it's the right way, the wrong way, or the only way. I'm very comfortable with how I interpreted what was said .

Yes, it does appear that members here 'would think that' -- since it's posted and is the very subject of what we're talking about here (hello?). So no, I'm sitting here 'thinking' ..."hmmmm, self, I wonder if any members want to call anyone a sucker". I didn't have to think it, Debra, it was stated by another member.

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I would never presume to deny you or anyone else their opinion or feelings, I was just so hoping we could get a really good parti thread with BOTH sides presenting facts, historical information, and references and maybe, just maybe we could get it into a sticky for future reference. I truly wanted a thread without silly fighting, an intelligent sharing of information. I think I can do it without being personal. I can also do it without twisting meaning, words, or going completely off topic.

It has been a good parti discussion, imo. Because you want the thread to go a certain way, it doesn't mean it will. We allow a lot of leeway here so threads can take their natural course, and we'll continue in this manner. I don't view what was said yesterday as OT or silly, since the comments made were about partis - and that is the topic here.

An opinion is 'a personal view, attitude, or appraisal'. If you can give your opinions "without being personal", then great. But, my opinions come from me, personally....so I'm not sure how to give a non-personal opinion, as it seems like an oxymoron to me .

And again with the 'twisting words' or whatever - that is starting to seem like a control issue. So, I'll repeat this -- members can and *will* interpret things according to their own experience. YOU may view it as an altered meaning, incorrect, or off topic, etcetera - but please don't presume that the way you view things should be shared by everyone.

Please stop informing the members that they're simply wrong in what they interpret - it's their interpretation!

If you are truly interested in fostering discussion here, you might consider whether the way to go about it is to tell others that their perception or interpretation is basically just incorrect.

[Pinehaven]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

One other thing about this subject is the decision by the AKC to allow a parti designation in registering Yorkies. It goes against the parent club, which sets the standard. To me, this only fuels the debate and muddies the water on what the average person should make of this.

I agree with you here but I understand AKC's point too. AKC is a breed registry. They DNA tested numerous litters and living generations of this parti line and they spoke to old time breeders who saw parti show up in their own litters ... AKC feels as I do, that they are Yorkshire terriers because of their PUREBRED bloodlines and AKC understands how recessive genes work.

By allowing these colors to be registered against YTCA's wishes (obviously), it has created a mess.

But here's an example of how genes can hide for many generations. The American Morgan Horse assoc. put a rule in the books 50 years ago, called the high white/blue eye rule, it was like the parti DQ rule. It was put in place because a single line of morgans started producing pinto coloring and the Morgan standard called for black, brown, chestnut or bay horses with minimal white markings. This rule, denied horses with white above the knee or blue eyes to be registered (trying to keep the pinto genes out of the gene pool).

In the 80's blood typing became mandatory for registering foals and in the late 90's to the early 2000's, it was switched over to DNA. Then in 1996, the rule was repealed and it was felt by many, that the pinto gene had been erridacated from the gene pool but minimally white marked horses (who were actually carrying different genes for pinto coloring) began throwing louder marked foals with white over the knee and sometimes belly spots. I had my own surprise pinto foal born that year and I must have called the registry 5 times in 24 hours to see if I could register him. Luckily, he was born 3 months after the repeal of the High White rule so I named him High White Revolution aka, Rebel and he's registered with the American Morgan Horse assoc and double registered with a pinto registry, he's a minimally marked sabino with stockings above the hock, 8 inch belly spot, other various disconnect small spots and an apron blaze. This is where my interest in color genetics began.

PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums - slide show of Rebel, 4 of the photos are when I owned him.

Today, 50 years after the High white rule began and 25 years after parental verification started through blood typing and/or DNA, here are two examples of how pinto coloring is popping up out of minimally marked parents - these two horses are the loudest marked Morgans that I'm aware of, both get their pinto markings through the splash gene.

http://memcmorgans.com/Tiger/Tiger-ad.jpg

pinto news

My point here is that these sneaky spotting genes, can hide in the form of "accepted" minimal white markings in animals for many generations. It happened in the Morgan breed and it happened in the Yorkshire Terrier breed as well.

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Totally OT question... what is done when a yorkie's hair is "wrapped" for showing? I've seen this referred to a lot, but never really understood it. How long do the wraps stay in for, and is the dog restricted from activity while they are in?

Wrapping a yorkie hair is done to protect the hair from breaking and damage. The wraps are little lightweight papers (like deli papers). The yorkie coat is divided into sections, the papers are wrapped around those sections and banded. The wraps are taken down, the hair brushed and re-wrapped daily or every couple of days. Wrapping is generally done during a yorkie's show life, after they have reached their championship, most show breeders cut down the coat and wrapping is no longer needed.

Some show breeders do restrict the dogs activity (even living most of their life in a kennel or ex-pen), others will tell you they don't.

Here's a link showing how it's done: Jon-An's Yorkshire Terriers (How I wrap a show dog)

Jon-An's Yorkshire Terriers (How I wrap a show dog)

[Raymond's Mom]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Mardelin, What Selected Awards?

Yes, I feel health testing in the most important when it comes to breeding. But how truthful are those tests?

FlDebra, It was only a few months ago,on 9/14/10 that there were only 38 yorkies that were certified. Now you are stating all YTCA dogs in the ring have been certified...where is that documentation or is that just your opinion?
I also have to ask why the AKC is not even requiring (just recommending) bile acid tests with the Yorkie even though they have one of the highest % of liver shunt dogs in all the breeds? Where is the health concern there?

The following is just one small part of the two articles...

”Who would admit that their OFA certified dog became crippled or the CERF certified dog went blind? Not the vets, not the breeders, and least of all, the burgeoning health registries that were raking in . OFA doesn’t care that less than 5% of owners ever re-certify a dog's hips or elbows due to expense, radiation exposure, or anesthesia risk. That alone makes a mockery of hip certification. But it gets worse. The priceless clear-hips certificate may not belong to that dog. Substitution has become so common that breeders joke about dogs that "glow in the dark."

HEALTH CERTIFICATION (1) PERSPECTIVES, by Barbara J. Andrews

CERTIFYING HEALTH CERTIFICATION & TESTING, by Barbara J. Andrews

I believe that YTCA will be requiring, to win the club's award, that the Top Winning YT Dog and Bitch (breed points) and the Top Winning Owner Handled YT Dog and Bitch (breed points) will need to have CHIC numbers. Also dogs born after 2011 will need a CHIC number to qualify for a ROM or Top Sire and Top Dam award.

How truthful are the tests? Only as truthful as the dog's owner. If the owner chooses to cheat I would guess they will. But for every scum bag that is dishonest my bet is that there are many owners who use the tests honestly. I know that OFA will refuse to list a dog owners tests results on all dogs owned by a person that has been shown to switch dogs or falsify test results. I would hope that YTCA would take action too.

Unfortunately most dogs in the ring these days do not have CHIC numbers. AKC is a registry and does not involve themselves in issues such as dogs having CHIC numbers. There are a few breeds that require all the adult dogs entered at their specialty have a CHIC number. Wouldn't that be great in our breed? That rule in itself would probably put some breeders/exhibitors in an early grave!!!!

As for the frequency of the tests, one CERF and one OFA Patellar is required for a CHIC number in yorkies. And eye disease can be late onset. So it's up to the person wanting to use the dog at stud or buy a pup from a breeding pair of yorkiess to ASK why the dog's test hasn't been redone!!! Insist that tests are up to date. When that type of pressure is put on breeders they will start testing and retesting.

Hip Dysplasia - Do you know it is in this breed and there are kennels that are knowingly breeding and showing dysplastic dogs? As some parti breeders are welcoming CH yorkie lines into their breeding programs they should be very concerned with OFA results. And a one year old dog isn't going to test good for hips on the preliminary x-ray and then become dysplastic as an adult.

Knees - it goes without saying that you want the knees examined by manual examination on a dog that is fully awake. Not by x-ray and not under anesthesia. Why would anyone justify breeding two dogs with bad knees, parti or normal colored yorkie?

Bile Acid testing - Right now test results are all over the board. There is no consistency in the test protocol or test results. When the marker is found for liver disease I'm sure that you'll see that test required for CHIC.

You can find many excuses for not testing. Your post resembles the sentiments of many breeders. They haven't tested in all the years that they've been breeding so why start? And a good number have "secrets" about their dogs that they don't want known. CHIC is about disclosure. That is what so many don't want any part of! But given time more and more will test. Parti breeders want respect for their dogs and recognition as ethical breeders so will they start testing too?

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Totally OT question... what is done when a yorkie's hair is "wrapped" for showing? I've seen this referred to a lot, but never really understood it. How long do the wraps stay in for, and is the dog restricted from activity while they are in?

Wrapping is done for a couple of reasons. 1. To allow the dog to be a dog while cultivating the coat. It is done in such a manner as to not restrict movement. 2. It is done to protect to the coat to prevent breakage while in play and during their normal activity

How long are they left in....they are taken down daily to check for ring around (matting under the band). Fresh wraps are put in as needed.....but, replaced completely after each bath.

The types of wraps used is dependent on coat texture and sex of the dog. Plastic used more for male dogs. Paper/silk used for females and coats with less density.

[QuickSilver]

Thanks, jencar and Mardelin for explaining wrapping. Does anyone here have pictures of their dog wrapped?

Also, I was wondering if someone could provide a short "CHIC for Dummies" post (or reference) for the rest of us trying to keep up.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Thanks, jencar and Mardelin for explaining wrapping. Does anyone here have pictures of their dog wrapped?

Also, I was wondering if someone could provide a short "CHIC for Dummies" post (or reference) for the rest of us trying to keep up.

Here's the website for the Canine Health Information Center:

Canine Health Information Center

[Maximo]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Totally OT question... what is done when a yorkie's hair is "wrapped" for showing? I've seen this referred to a lot, but never really understood it. How long do the wraps stay in for, and is the dog restricted from activity while they are in?

There was a discussion about this in the show section this summer. Gemy and CarlyBaby's champion Yorkies live very active lives in wraps. Several other exhibitors indicated that their show dogs are not restricted in any way.