Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[jencar98]

Originally Posted by dinkyweil

This is a very interesting thread. I know zero to nothing about breeding, showing, etc.
So here is a question that may seem really dumb. I've looked at images of Biewers and Parti's and to my undiscerning eye, I see no difference. So what is it?

Your question is not dumb at all, it has been asked before, because you're right, the two do look very similar. Many believe, myself included, there isn't a difference other than that Biewers originated in Germany and the partis here in the U.S. Some Biewer breeders wanting acceptance in AKC maintain Biewers are a new breed and AKC should accept them as such. The original full name given to Biewer was Biewer Yorkshire Terrier a la Pom-Pon.

It gets confusing in these threads as you will see or have already seen.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I agree, many who read this will not have any idea who the early yorkshire terrier people were. I surely did not know prior to 2006! No room here for high handedness or trying to belittle those wanting to learn! We all started somewhere!!! I will just bet there was a day in the life of every person reading here when they did not know who she was!

If we could just keep the sarcasm, insults, and other TOS violations off the thread, maybe we could have a valid discussion without a thread being locked closed.

it would be nice to actually have a debate for once that doesn't end in fighting wouldn't it. i just like hearing all the "Factual" information from both sides of the debate. it's how i best form an educated opinion.

[RachelandSadie]

i think i'd have a much better peace about it knowing that they were biewers and a "new dog breed" than partis which still want and desire to be known as a yorkie. a yorkie is a yorkie is a yorkie. blue and gold standard, but a biewer could become a whole new dog breed someday if they maintain that it's not a yorkie it's a new dog...who knows.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I hadn't seen your edited response when I asked about price. I did check Amazon, now I just have to order it.

1. Also try Google books-there's a "preview of it looks like the entire text to me-I have a student account associated with my University so I can't tell if its one you can see there without a certain membership...but if it is... there is FREE! P.S. You can by pass the c.r. or fees from downloading by copy paste in the student version of MS Word if you have 2007 or more so you can save the text.
2. I think the reference to not having things referenced off breeder sites was to keep sales pitches out of the equation-at least I hope that was the ideal...I see Debra also posted she'd lie this thread to be for references...I don't know about anyone else but I'm stoked on that-something besides someone saying so too see for yourself-really hard to sift through all the "junk" on the net to find something reliable, when you are on either side-in the middle or just trying to learn-I really get annoyed seeing so called authorities being quoted with their opinion though as a relevant fact...but at least I can see it for myself this way.
3. To the few who posted with confusion-don't feel bad. The first few times I saw Biewers I thought they were just Parti's that carried a name of a breeder because someone felt like naming "their" Partis after them-seeing the distinction between a Biewer and a Parti now is recognizable to me...but when you first see them and try to associate it can be very confusing. I'm still under the impression Biewers were created and that Parti's are a naturally occurring "fault" but a natural occurrence nevertheless due to the basics of genetics...now bred specifically for the natural occurring "fault" (recessive gene dominance).
4. I didn't know that knowing whom was who in the Yorkie world was a requirement of YT...I thought we all came here to share, learn, enjoy and socialize about Yorkies...of all kinds...

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

i think i'd have a much better peace about it knowing that they were biewers and a "new dog breed" than partis which still want and desire to be known as a yorkie. a yorkie is a yorkie is a yorkie. blue and gold standard, but a biewer could become a whole new dog breed someday if they maintain that it's not a yorkie it's a new dog...who knows.

Since the AKC requires a new breed to be from at least 3 other breeds, one of the several Biewer clubs in the US is now trying to say exactly that so they can apply as a new dog breed and get into the AKC. The Biewers are accepted in some registries outside the US and one of the NON-AKC registries here has decided to let them in. But the AKC has not as yet.

[Woogie Man]

Partial Quote

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I do have some questions about the history and just where white was introduced.

I don't think there is a definitive history on white appearing in these dogs. Some older texts do have mentions of dogs with white, white dogs, etc., but nothing definite.

One of the parti clubs has several old texts on their website.

I've found mention in a book from 1894 of off colored dogs in the ring. Here's a quote from it...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"There are some other rough-haired toy terriers, which are, however, of little account, because they have never been bred to any particular type. Occasionally wee things very like what a miniature Skye terrier would be are seen; and, again, some smart little dogs with cut ears, evidently a cross between a Yorkshire terrier and some other variety of small dog, are not at all uncommon, and were quite numerous before the dog show era commenced. Since then the general public will not look at anything other than what is considered to be of blue blood. At one of the early London shows separate classes were provided for Scotch terriers under 71b. weight and white in colour, fawns with the same limit, and blues likewise, each of the three attracting a fair entry, most of which were, however, what we should now call "cross-bred" broken-haired toy terriers."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...and this is from the breed standard for the Yorkshire Terrier from the same book.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Coat
The hair as long and straight as possible (not wavy), which should be glossy, like silk (not woolly); colour, a bright steel blue, extending from the back of the head to the root of the tail, and on no account intermingled the least with fawn, light, or dark hairs."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


here's the link... The Terriers. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland | by Rawdon B. Lee

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Yeah, it seems funny to me when people name drop on here. I'm not into famous people in any genre. Famous breeders to pop icons are all people to me, so I don't follow names. I do however like to learn, and will be looking forward to getting this book.

The Book of the Yorkshire Terrier by Joan McDonald Brearley is another good book.

And if you want to get into stastics, the Heritage I & Heritage II, you use to be able to order them from the YTCA.....

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

breezeaway something from your website caught my attention here:

from Joan's book you posted that:

"It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower fore jaw. These will not be visible as an adult. A large amount of white marks on the chest, paws, jaws, or skull, places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color: black, white, and tan; all blue; bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors. These mismarked Yorkie puppies are not the result of the mis-alliances or throwbacks but are rather the net product of incorrectly inherited genes which have failed to activate the pigment glandular system to providing what they require to be in accord with the Yorkshire terrier standard. Puppies incorrectly colored or marked should not be sold as rare, they should not be registered as Yorkshire terriers, but should simply be found a loving home If one cannot bring oneself to having them put down."


This makes me understand that selling partis as a rare genetic trait or trying to call them a yorkie is NOT acceptable to this woman who is so highly respected it seems to me.

As I said Mrs Gordon herself believes totally in the yorkie standard. I am not disputing that. I said she said the mismarked dogs should be spayed/neutered and petted out.
What I am trying to educate about is that the parti and other colors CAN be born to 2 traditional yorkies and by that it does not make them another breed. They are still yorkies, just the wrong color for the standard. As I have pointed out, even Joan had a parti born into their kennel, she registered him AKC because he was a yorkie. She had the parents and him spayed and neutered so they could not pass on this gene. She certainly didn't want to contribute to a color that she did not believe represented the yorkie.
Yes, I understand the yorkie standard, its blue and tan coat is what it is known for more so than anything else about it.

I am not disputing this, I am just showing that the parti can be in the genetics of the yorkie. And I'm tired of people saying they are a mix.
Frankly by all that keep preaching they are a mix, you are calling Joan a liar.
#1 She states they can be born tri color in her book.
#2 She had one born into her kennel from a very long line of Wildweir dogs, and she didnt mix anything into them, she registered her one tri color with AKC.
So I say yes, parti's can be born from 2 traditional color yorkies, that is why AKC opened the registery for them because they were shown that it does happen.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

1. Also try Google books-there's a "preview of it looks like the entire text to me-I have a student account associated with my University so I can't tell if its one you can see there without a certain membership...but if it is... there is FREE! P.S. You can by pass the c.r. or fees from downloading by copy paste in the student version of MS Word if you have 2007 or more so you can save the text.
2. I think the reference to not having things referenced off breeder sites was to keep sales pitches out of the equation-at least I hope that was the ideal...I see Debra also posted she'd lie this thread to be for references...I don't know about anyone else but I'm stoked on that-something besides someone saying so too see for yourself-really hard to sift through all the "junk" on the net to find something reliable, when you are on either side-in the middle or just trying to learn-I really get annoyed seeing so called authorities being quoted with their opinion though as a relevant fact...but at least I can see it for myself this way.
3. To the few who posted with confusion-don't feel bad. The first few times I saw Biewers I thought they were just Parti's that carried a name of a breeder because someone felt like naming "their" Partis after them-seeing the distinction between a Biewer and a Parti now is recognizable to me...but when you first see them and try to associate it can be very confusing. I'm still under the impression Biewers were created and that Parti's are a naturally occurring "fault" but a natural occurrence nevertheless due to the basics of genetics...now bred specifically for the natural occurring "fault" (recessive gene dominance).
4. I didn't know that knowing whom was who in the Yorkie world was a requirement of YT...I thought we all came here to share, learn, enjoy and socialize about Yorkies...of all kinds...

The First Biewer(tri color yorkie) was born from 2 Champion traditional yorkies , which by the way has the very same ancestor in common from England and the Nikkos line of partis.
They are the same dogs. They both are yorkies.
You have YTCA members that own Biewers so they are spouting that they are a separate breed. Heaven forbid should they get caught owning a parti so they push and push the separate breed issue.
How can the Biewer suddenly morph into another breed when it derived from 2 yorkies and Mr Biewer bred back to the traditional color yorkies up until 1992. Some of his tricolors were registered with VDH/KFC as Yorkshire terriers.
The first Biewer/tri-color born to Mr Biewer was in 1984, Joan Gordon had one born in 1976, and she states that the tri color Yorkie was imported into Germany from England.

The first Biewer standard was that of a yorkie except for color and the Biewers tails were docked until Germany outlawed it.

Color does Not make a new breed.

[Breezeaway]

In this picture you can see Mr Biewers tri colors with his traditionals. These are the dogs he bred. As you can see they are yorkies.

[DvlshAngel985]

I've been wanting to ask, but didn't have the guts to before, (same reason I never asked about Joan Gordon) has there ever been any all steel blue or black yorkie? I have seen threads where people are proud of their all white yorkies, or close to it, and I think I recall seeing an all tan one. (can't remember, it could have been a mix) So has there ever been a yorkie that is all dark before? Or would the dark ones be considered "chocolate" or liver colored yorkies. Sorry if that's a dumb question, I was just wondering.

[Breny]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

No idea what a Biewers is,

My Biewer is in my Avatar

[kjcmsw]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

In this picture you can see Mr Biewers tri colors with his traditionals. These are the dogs he bred. As you can see they are yorkies.

Since I love my Yorkies I happened to think that's a very sweet picture --- however, looks like a puppy mill to me...running Yorkie down a cattle shute!
RE: all the debate over a parti/biewer being a Yorkie or not...again, love my Yorkies, but why is it important that a parti and/or biewer be recognized as a "Yorkie"...what's wrong with being a "parti" or a "biewer" Do parti or biewer owners think Yorkies are really "all that"?

After my first daughter was born at a large family baptismal gathering, there was much debate as to who she looked like (my hubby or myself)...baby Jessica was passed around with everyone giving their opinion, finally she was handed off to the wise, wise family matriarch, who looked her over slowly and very carefully and said, "I think she looks like...." --- the room got still, she was going to speak, her opinion would be the final word..."I think she looks like...Jessica." And that was that.

My point is if coloring isn't affecting their health, what's the big deal? What's wrong with a "parti" being a "parti" and a "biewer" being a "biewer"?
I think the pictures I've seen of YT members parti's and biewers they are beautiful and they deserve to be in a class by themselves.
Kendra

[DvlshAngel985]

I may be "speaking" out of place, but I believe the issue is when people start classifying partis and biewers as a rare commodity (which I have seen happen) people who think they can make a quick buck off of them. When people think that money can be made they will focus on the one trait and breed only for it, ignoring the important things when breeding (health and soundness). Have you seen this thread?
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...-luxpup-4.html

In this post you can see the link to what those pups look like. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/3367356-post48.html
My guess is they breed for tinnies and the head is subsequent deformity because of it. They give it a cutesy name and market it for more money.

[concretegurl]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

The First Biewer(tri color yorkie) was born from 2 Champion traditional yorkies , which by the way has the very same ancestor in common from England and the Nikkos line of partis.
They are the same dogs. They both are yorkies.
You have YTCA members that own Biewers so they are spouting that they are a separate breed. Heaven forbid should they get caught owning a parti so they push and push the separate breed issue.
How can the Biewer suddenly morph into another breed when it derived from 2 yorkies and Mr Biewer bred back to the traditional color yorkies up until 1992. Some of his tricolors were registered with VDH/KFC as Yorkshire terriers.
The first Biewer/tri-color born to Mr Biewer was in 1984, Joan Gordon had one born in 1976, and she states that the tri color Yorkie was imported into Germany from England.

The first Biewer standard was that of a yorkie except for color and the Biewers tails were docked until Germany outlawed it.

Color does Not make a new breed.

I'm blown away I thought Biewers and Parti's were different! My mind is so confused now! So they stereotypical black(ish) white and semi red (tan) toned Biewer is actually just a Parti at the extreme? So when people say Tri-colored they are talking about Biewers and Partis!?
I posted pics of the stereotypical Biewer first and the most commonly found example of a Parti-thus you can see the difference-was I the only one missing that whole part-WOW?
I thought the Biewer was a Parti the first time I saw one-then I thought they were different types of Yorkies now they're the same-my head is spinning here!
Good thing I'm reading this thread and learning! So breeding Parti to Biewer is a non-issue (what's this Biewer to Biewer only breeding claim ppl make then?) then because they are the same and both share a recessive gene which has been brought out purposefully-considered a "fault" gene or not...it was first attempted to be bred out and now attempted to be bred back in?
When the breeder whom bred one of my dogs explained to me she ended her Parti line and began breeding Biewers and that Elvis was purely the product of four generations of Parti to Parti directly showing his lineage to the (Nikko) line she was fudging it as Partis and Biewers are the same just somewhat divided now? Out of curiosity what is the division now?
And why is there a Poodle (schnauzer) looking (mix) dog in the pic of the Biewer's dogs? Yorkie guard dog?