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12-22-2010, 08:57 PM | #1 |
Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: FL
Posts: 7,651
| Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor Thought I would start a new thread (instead of tacking on the end of another's) about the white/parti-color's and how they pertain to the Yorkshire Terrier. As I said in another thread, we mostly have to just form an educated opinion as we do not have our own genetics labs or a time machine to be physically present during those early breedings. But we can take information from some of the experts in the field that have studied Yorkshire Terriers for 20-30 years and formulated their own ideas. I had to redo my computer recently and lost my bookmarks but as I find the pertinent sites, I will post the info here. Everyone is welcome to post their references pro and con. References authored by those that sell the parti-colors are not really desired as their opinions are pretty biased and clouded by $$$. I think this is an important issue to the future of the Yorkshire terrier. I have no delusions that what I find or post will stop parti-colored dogs from being bred, but I do think it is important that people (especially new folks looking for puppies) understand this issue and what it might mean to the future of the breed. So, here is a good start -- several recognized experts comment on their thoughts on the tri-color possibility: Joan Gordon "According to many present-day writers Yorkshires were the result of a number of breeds being bred together to produce the desired points. How anyone could believe, or even imagine, these early fanciers would have bred from a Dandie Dinmont, a breed with an uneven top line; a Maltese, a totally white breed lacking any blue or tan markings or from a smooth coated Manchester Terrier (originally a smooth coated Old English Terrier) is not being realistic. "http://www.ytca.org/history.html Gale Thompson " Parti-Color Yorkshire Terriers? Do not be fooled into buying one of these dogs. Now that Designer Dogs are the rage, the “new” Parti-Color Yorkie is certain to draw attention. While we have had problems in the past with “rare gold” Yorkshire Terriers being advertised, the parti-color is a new one! While some breeds have an occasional mismark and some breeds do have a gene for a white dog, we do not. Had there been a problem with white markings, piebald dogs, or white dogs, it would have been addressed in our Standard. Due to unscrupulous breeders advertising parti-colored Yorkshire Terriers at premium prices, our members voted unanimously at our annual meeting to add a disqualification for these and other off colored dogs. The Yorkshire Terrier is a tan dog with a blue saddle. The “rare gold” Yorkie is actually a dog that appears as such due to an improper saddle pattern. Show breeders have seen this and commonly call it running gold. When the dog is cut down, you can see that the blue saddle does not come down far enough. The Yorkshire Terrier blue saddle extends lower than some of the other black and tan terriers extending to the elbow and also to the hock on the rear leg. Gold hairs can occur in the blue and black or blue hairs can appear in the gold. These faults are addressed in the Yorkshire Terrier Standard. These dogs have serious faults and they too should not be sold as "rare" but placed in loving homes as they are very incorrect. Yorkies do not have white markings…never have. A small white strip is sometimes seen on the chest of newborns but this always turns to tan within a few weeks. The AKC registration form for Yorkshire Terriers allows for four choices: blue and tan, blue and gold, black and tan, black and gold. There is no provision for markings. A brief history of the development of the Yorkshire Terrier will show that the dog was developed in the 1800’s. In England, the Waterside Terrier was often crossed with the old English terrier, a silky coated black and tan or blue and tan terrier weighing around five pounds. When crafters from Scotland came into England, they brought several “Scotch“terriers, among them the Paisley and the Clydesdale. The Paisley was a small silky coated dog in various shades of blue. The Clydesdale was a blue and tan dog with the exact color pattern as the Yorkie of today. All of these original breeds were grizzle, tan, blue, blue and tan, or black and tan. No white dog or dogs with white markings were involved in the process of developing the breed. The first Yorkshire Terriers were entered at shows as Broken Haired Scotch and Yorkshire Terriers. In the early days, dog classes were often divided by size, under five pounds and over five pounds; however, there was never a class for colors other than the blue and tan we see today. The color pattern and coat texture has bred true and has been dominate enough that the Silky Terrier evolved by crossing the Yorkshire Terrier and the Australian Terrier with basically the same coat of the of the Yorkie. " Yorkshire Terrier Club of America (Awards) Cher Hildebrand "If I personally had a Tri-Colored Yorkie, as a reputable breeder I would immediately spay/neuter the dog as the dog does not genetically represent a true Yorkie in breed type. Do not be misled by breeder's selling these dogs. They are not what a Yorkie should be and do not look like Yorkies, but more like a Shih Tzu and sometimes a Maltese. Beware! Don't be misled that someday the Parti Yorkie will be shown with AKC. This is not happening. It's much like the white German Shepherd. AKC registers off colored dogs, including the Parti color Yorkie, but they can NOT be shown. AKC is only a registration body. YTCA holds the Yorkshire Terrier standard and will not allow the Parti Yorkie to be shown and that is not going to change. The Biewer's can NEVER be shown AKC as they are not registered with an organization acceptable in the US. So the papers with that organization can never be transferred to AKC. The Parti Yorkie and Biewer can NEVER become another breed with AKC either unless they acknowledge they are a combination of atleast 3 breeds. That information is right on AKC's website on Foundation Stock Service. When you work to create a new breed, it takes atleast 3 breeds to be involved in the makeup of that breed and of course they would have their own name." Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Party Color and Biewer Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" The genetic makeup for the Yorkshire Terrier is: asasBBCCDDEEGGmmSStt S Self colour to totally pigmented surface si Irish spotting involving a few definite areas of white sp Piebald spotting sw Extreme-white piebald Most breeds without white markings are SS but from time to time markings do appear and in general appear on toes, chest or muzzle. These marks can be present at birth and are lost during infancy. The ones that persist are not other s alleles but to minus modifiers at the S allele and will be limited to those minute amounts in those locations. Irish spotting is also limited to certain areas of the body as the dominant S is, ruling out either gene in the makeup of Parti Yorkie Tri Colors or Biewers. Limited to forehead, chest, belly, feet and tail tip. Piebald shows much larger amounts of white on the dogs then the Irish spotting gene. Extreme-white piebald is seen in those breeds which are white in color. As a result of this double carrier of swsw all other colors can be suppressed. (From Malcolm Willis "Genetics of the Dog") So in essense, to have the white markings that are on the so called Parti Yorkie Tri Color or Biewer dogs, another breed had to have been in the mixture at some point. Since no one wants to admit this and in all honesty, it could be back far enough that no one is living any longer to admit to it, but unlikely that it is not much closer up. After some study of the current Biewer situation, which is somewhat the same situation, I've found they have both the Piebald gene and the Extreme-White Piebald gene. Some of the Biewer's are going almost solid white, which gives and indication of a couple different breeds. Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" When you read the genetic study of the Maltese, they have the Extreme-White Piebald gene. Even though the genetic studies were not conducted on Shih Tzu, it is quite apparent that they are carrying the Piebald gene. Either or both could figure into the equation. The ones going white are heavy on the Extreme-White Piebald and the ones keeping color on the backs are of the Piebald inheritance. Either way, the mix wherever it happend, by accident or plan, this is NO longer a purebred Yorkshire Terrier. In over 30 years of being involved in the sport and many Yorkshire Terrier champions, I have not had a Yorkshire Terrier with white. I find it interesting that the only ones coming up are the ones not bred by show exhibitors. A show exhibitor was getting them and had enough sense to realize there was more behind her breeding then just the Yorkshire Terrier and somebody had obviously done a breeding that was not pure Yorkshire Terrier. Otherwise the show exhibitors are not getting these white colored dogs." Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Party Color and Biewer
__________________ FlDebra and her ABCs Annie, Ben, Candy Promoting Healthy Breeding to the AKC Yorkshire Terrier Standard |
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12-22-2010, 08:59 PM | #2 |
Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: FL
Posts: 7,651
| (CONTINUED) All would not fit in one post Linda Bush ( a Yorkie show exhibitor of many champions) "was able to provide invaluable information on the show exhibitor and pedigrees which concludes who the culprit dog was in the past that started the Parti Yorkie Tri Color Biewer in the US. This is a wonderful breed, but breeds are controlled by standards and that is the way it should be. To be protected by breedings that can harm the breed. It has been posted publicly that there are inherent problems in these white colored dogs and a lot are not living past 7 or 8 years of age. This is also not a problem with Yorkshire Terriers. That genetic disorder has been brought into the breed they have created, with whatever other breed/breeds they have in their background. In doing research I have found that numerous breeds with white do have associated health issues. It also is noted by some on websites of these breeders of parti's that you can NOT get parti's from 2 regular Yorkshire Terriers. Well then how did they get them in the 1st place? Supposedly they got them from 2 Yorkies. Yet this proves a contradiction itself. They acknowledge all Parti Yorkies go back to a certain English dog. The one show exhibitor in the US that also was getting parti color Yorkies had breeding from the same kennel in England. At this point I think the most important issue to look at is the fact that the Yorkshire Terrier only carries the SS gene, not the piebald gene which is needed for the white coloring. " Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Party Color and Biewer "Disqualifications: Any solid color or combination of colors other than blue and tan as described above. Any white markings other than a small white spot on the forechest that does not exceed 1 inch at its longest dimension. Approved July 10, 2007 Effective October 1, 2007" American Kennel Club - Yorkshire Terrier
__________________ FlDebra and her ABCs Annie, Ben, Candy Promoting Healthy Breeding to the AKC Yorkshire Terrier Standard |
12-22-2010, 09:02 PM | #3 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member | References authored by those that sell the parti-colors are not really desired as their opinions are pretty biased and clouded by $$$. Debra, I don't think this is fair if you want opinions from both sides. Undoubtedly you are going to have traditional color yorkie breeders posting on this thread and their opinions are also biased and often motivated by $$.
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12-22-2010, 10:00 PM | #4 |
Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mississippi
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| Debra, there was a massive parti thread a few months ago. There's about everything that could be said about partis, both pro and con, and some cited historical references for both arguments. It's 61 pages...... Here's the link... http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...olor-ytca.html
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12-22-2010, 10:10 PM | #5 |
Donating YT 500 Club Member | This author was around not long after the time the Yorkie was established as a breed. He had word of mouth knowledge none of the above authors could have had access to. British dogs, their points, selection, and show preparation, by William D. Drury, pg 582 published 1903, L. Upcott Gill, London, and Charles Scribner's Sons, New York (no ISBN) Quote: "I think the Yorkshire gets the softness and length of coat due to Maltese blood". Also, to my point above about biases, and motivation. Four of your five references are from show breeders. Of course their opinion is biased and I'm quite certain they have sold dogs before, hence part of their motivation?
__________________ ~Ruby, Reno, Razz, & Jack~ |
12-22-2010, 10:38 PM | #6 |
Donating YT 1000 Club Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Maui, Hawaii
Posts: 7,740
| There was an interesting thread a while back about AKC listing parti as a color choice on registrations, though it got confusing toward the end. Was it resolved? http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/bre...ne-partis.html
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12-22-2010, 11:27 PM | #7 |
Thor's Human Donating Member | FlDebra mentioned a book, "Genetics of the Dog", by Malcolm B. Willis. Is this a good book on canine genetics? I'd be interested in reading up on this subject. I see that it was published twenty years ago? I'm kind of surprised that the reference books rec'd on YT are so old. Why aren't new books on these topics coming out?
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12-22-2010, 11:54 PM | #8 |
Between♥Suspensions Donating Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Vaissades
Posts: 7,979
| I have a silly question-maybe not-isn't it said that the Biewer's origins are a hidden secret of the Biewer family and despite the listings of the dogs he used in his records for the AKC acceptance the parentage of some of the original or breed originating dogs were unknown I'm wondering if Biewers should even be considered in the argument (HA HA I mean conversation) about Standard and Partis...and their white coloration or tri-coloration? Does anyone have a really good factual reference of Biewers from the family or directly to their records? Well one that is already translated to English as well? Last edited by concretegurl; 12-22-2010 at 11:56 PM. |
12-23-2010, 08:41 AM | #9 | |
Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 159
| Quote:
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12-23-2010, 08:55 AM | #10 |
Donating YT 4000 Club Member | Or perhaps because by registering Parti's, those who desire to avoid them in their lines can do a more thorough research on the ancestory of their prospective lines. Just a thought.
__________________ Don't get your knickers in a knot. Nothing is solved and it just makes you walk funny. |
12-23-2010, 09:06 AM | #11 | |
Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
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12-23-2010, 09:10 AM | #12 |
Donating YT 2000 Club Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Angeles, California, USA
Posts: 12,693
| I agree. For those that are careful when choosing their lines, it would be nice information to know that the "Parti gene" is present in the lines. (shouldn't every responsible breeder be choosy anyway?) That way they can choose whether or not that is something they want to incorporate into their breeding program.
__________________ Littlest JakJak We miss you Kaji |
12-23-2010, 09:14 AM | #13 | |
Donating YT 500 Club Member | Quote:
Amazon.com: Genetics: An Introduction for Dog... This is one that I have seen referenced before. I did order it because I am familiar with it through discussions on other threads and forums and want to learn more on this subject. I've never studied genetics (except for basics) but guess it is time to teach this old dog new tricks. Amazon.com: The Inheritance of Coat Color in...
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12-23-2010, 09:16 AM | #14 |
My Three Hearts Donating Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Wrapped around their paws :-)
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| "Everyone is welcome to post their references pro and con. References authored by those that sell the parti-colors are not really desired as their opinions are pretty biased and clouded by $$$". So in essence, you are saying we welcome your opinion on parties but not if you are a parti breeder? Why are tradional breeder not biased then? Would this not be a one sided conversation??
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12-23-2010, 09:37 AM | #15 |
No Longer a Member | I don't know why this has to be rehashed over and over. Any information one might need is posted on my website or on the parti Yorkshire Terrier club website. There is no way Linda Bush could trace who the culprit is for all the parti color dogs. Tri-color dogs were showing up in England long before they arrived in the U.S. because the yorkie originated there. As I posted part of the letter I received from Joan Gordon, I will post again for those who did not see it. "Dear Ms Mullins Thank you for your letter, I'm glad you enjoyed our books I must say however that I'm always fascinated by the amount of misinformation that is placed on the computer and even more so when it becomes exaggerated. WE actually had exactly one tri-color puppy born in all the years we bred Yorkies. After my sister died I gave up breeding extensively as it was what we did together. Since Jans death in 1985. I have bred exactly 4 litters and I stopped breeding completely probably 9 or 10 years ago. I could go look it up but I know Katie and Nicky were the last 2 puppies born. I have shown several dogs that I purchased from others since then. Our one tri-color puppy was born Dec. 10, 1976 and was a single puppy. His sire was Wildweir Counterspy and his dam was Wildweir Stitch in Time. His Recorded name Wildweir Triplicate. He was reg with AKC #: TB426843. This was a first litter for either of his parents. We had the bitch spayed and the male neutered and both were placed as pets. I had heard of Yorkies being born in England that were Tri's but "Trippy" was the only one we'd ever seen. We kept him until he matured. He was born a white dog with black spots and developed his tan marking as he grew up. His black spots turned to blue-gray and his tan markings came out by the time he was around six months. His temperament was all yorkie and size was very typical around 5 1/2 to 6 lbs. His coat was not as wiry as a fox terrier but certainly not as silky as a yorkie. We placed him with friends who had tried to buy him earlier when he was 2 years old and he lived to be 12 years old. I don't have a problem writing about our "Trippy" but since the others who bred mismarked dogs that I knew about are deceased, I don't believe I can comment on them. I can only hope that they seek the truth and not just rumors! If they thought Trippy was not a yorkie, why did they register him with AKC. She also states in her letter that the tri-color was imported into Germany from England. Other colors have always popped up in the yorkie. Joan stated that in the 1930's there was a breeder that was raising golds exclusively and AKC put a cease and desist on him. The real truth is that they have always existed, No, they are not the standard, we all agree on that but that does not mean that others colors were never born. The Wildweir dogs do not trace back to Streamglen kennels, She did not know why they got a tri color, it just happens. In her book she did state that:" "It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower fore jaw. These will not be visible as an adult. A large amount of white marks on the chest, paws, jaws, or skull, places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color: black, white, and tan; all blue; bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors. Joan in no way ever stated that partis were not born from 2 traditional color yorkies. What she does say is that these dogs are mismarked and should not be shown. That does does not constitute them being another breed or a mix. Malcoms book does not anywhere mention a parti yorkie or a Biewer. Parti yorkies can be born from 2 traditional yorkies, I don't know where you get your misinformation from. Joans "Trippy" was born from 2 regular yorkies. There are enough books and references that say there were other colors, you cant go around and just pick and choose only the ones you want to believe. I believe I have as good a source as there is by having it in writing from Joan Gordon herself. No she did not think the line should be carried on when a parti showed up as they were not standard and she refers to them as mismarked. Mismarked , Yes , but still a yorkshire terrier. You can also go to the big thread mentioned earlier and it tells about the fox and the white suddenly showing up in it. You might want to read that. |
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