It's official, Kaji has seperation anxiety

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Well, I'm puzzled now. Kaji will not walk out the front door, I don't know why but he won't. He'll come downstairs with me then watch me walk out. When I call him he quickly turns around and jets back upstairs. Once I get up there he is sitting by my bed and when I get close he lies on his back. When I reach down to pick him up because he needs to get out to potty, he dribbles pee. He did it three times today. Once before his mid-day walk, and twice before his before bed walk. The second one right now dribbled all over his belly. This is a fairly new behavior and it has me baffled. It only happens if I let him walk downstairs as we're heading out. If I carry him down and all the way outside, he's able to hold it long enough to pee outside. I thought I was seeing things for a few days but now I'm sure, I saw the stream when I picked him up all three times today.
My roommate was helping me show him that walking out the door is good. And he was getting the hang of it, too, when he ran back upstairs and then he peed (not dribbled but a small puddle). He knew he did something wrong because he cowered and hid under my desk.
Am I doing something to scare him?

When he walks out the front door where is he usually going, just for walks, or do you take him somewhere he might not like? It sounds like he's fearful of going somewhere, then runs upstairs. So many things could be going on. If he has a bladder infection or stone, and it's painful to pee, he could even associate this with going outside to pee. He could also associate it with his trip to the vet, or even when he goes to your parent's house. You can teach him to overcome this, but it would be best if you could figure out what caused it first. Has the vet checked for infections, or stones? Have you tried using the back door to see if he does the same thing? Perhaps, you could use the back door, and take him for a nice walk, and ensure nothing aversive happens, giving him a treat when he gets home. Then later use the back door again and see if he responds with fear.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

When he walks out the front door where is he usually going, just for walks, or do you take him somewhere he might not like? It sounds like he's fearful of going somewhere, then runs upstairs. So many things could be going on. If he has a bladder infection or stone, and it's painful to pee, he could even associate this with going outside to pee. He could also associate it with his trip to the vet, or even when he goes to your parent's house. You can teach him to overcome this, but it would be best if you could figure out what caused it first. Has the vet checked for infections, or stones? Have you tried using the back door to see if he does the same thing? Perhaps, you could use the back door, and take him for a nice walk, and ensure nothing aversive happens, giving him a treat when he gets home. Then later use the back door again and see if he responds with fear.

We have one entrance only, so I couldn't try your technique Nancy. I live in a condo so there really is only one way in. I don't think I take him anywhere unpleasant I take him to the park (different parks), out for walks around the complex, out to potty, the doggie park which I think he enjoys, to my parents house every weekend, and I've taken him to the vet for a full check-up when I got him and two days later for his neuter where he had bloodwork and all that done, he hasn't been back since.
He is a really shy boy, the only times I've heard a peep out of him is when I get home from somewhere and he wants to get my attention (he's upstairs in my room in his ex-pen). He did try lifting his leg the first day he got here, and I just quickly scooped him up since I knew that would make him stop mid-stream. After that I would put his belly band on him, and when I saw him try to mark I would clap twice and say "no" in a firm voice. Not like yelling but a firm no. It seemed to work so when I tried to get him to stop his obsession for licking the other dog's ear I would do the same. When clapping to distract him wouldn't cut it, I would either take Danger away (the other dog) or Kaji by picking him up. It seemed to work because he doesn't do it anymore and Danger is happier not to have a pushy little kid sticking his tongue in his ear. Kaji did whine then because he couldn't help himself, he really wanted to lick Danger's ears. Like I said he doesn't do it anymore, he can go up to Danger, sniff him, give him a quick lick but not in the obsessive manner he started with.
The only thing I can think of right now where I did push Kaji to far was brushing his hair. He got something caught in his hair and I was trying to remove it without cutting his hair and I kept pulling and pulling. Instead of taking a break when he got restless, I kept trying to get it. I realized later that all I did was aggrivate him, and now I try not to push him. If I see him getting restless I put the brush down give him five minutes, start petting him, and then try again with just a few brushes and then I give him a treat for allowing me to do so. It takes me longer to brush him this way, but I don't want him to fear the brush.
I tried to go the "set them up for success" route and repetition. For example, when I figured out that he would pee a few mins after I came back and he got settled, the first thing I would do once he was settled is pick him up, walk downstairs and give him a chance to pee in the correct place. I let him sniff to his hearts content and he chooses the pee place, I just give him options. An example of repetition is when I got him to stop jumping up in his expen when I would go get him. If he was sitting, laying down, or standing in a calm manner I would approach the door. If he started jumping up I would take a step back and wait for him to calm down. I would repeat the process until he allowed me to unlock the door (it has a latch) and open it.

[chachi]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

We have one entrance only, so I couldn't try your technique Nancy. I live in a condo so there really is only one way in. I don't think I take him anywhere unpleasant I take him to the park (different parks), out for walks around the complex, out to potty, the doggie park which I think he enjoys, to my parents house every weekend, and I've taken him to the vet for a full check-up when I got him and two days later for his neuter where he had bloodwork and all that done, he hasn't been back since.
He is a really shy boy, the only times I've heard a peep out of him is when I get home from somewhere and he wants to get my attention (he's upstairs in my room in his ex-pen). He did try lifting his leg the first day he got here, and I just quickly scooped him up since I knew that would make him stop mid-stream. After that I would put his belly band on him, and when I saw him try to mark I would clap twice and say "no" in a firm voice. Not like yelling but a firm no. It seemed to work so when I tried to get him to stop his obsession for licking the other dog's ear I would do the same. When clapping to distract him wouldn't cut it, I would either take Danger away (the other dog) or Kaji by picking him up. It seemed to work because he doesn't do it anymore and Danger is happier not to have a pushy little kid sticking his tongue in his ear. Kaji did whine then because he couldn't help himself, he really wanted to lick Danger's ears. Like I said he doesn't do it anymore, he can go up to Danger, sniff him, give him a quick lick but not in the obsessive manner he started with.
The only thing I can think of right now where I did push Kaji to far was brushing his hair. He got something caught in his hair and I was trying to remove it without cutting his hair and I kept pulling and pulling. Instead of taking a break when he got restless, I kept trying to get it. I realized later that all I did was aggrivate him, and now I try not to push him. If I see him getting restless I put the brush down give him five minutes, start petting him, and then try again with just a few brushes and then I give him a treat for allowing me to do so. It takes me longer to brush him this way, but I don't want him to fear the brush.
I tried to go the "set them up for success" route and repetition. For example, when I figured out that he would pee a few mins after I came back and he got settled, the first thing I would do once he was settled is pick him up, walk downstairs and give him a chance to pee in the correct place. I let him sniff to his hearts content and he chooses the pee place, I just give him options. An example of repetition is when I got him to stop jumping up in his expen when I would go get him. If he was sitting, laying down, or standing in a calm manner I would approach the door. If he started jumping up I would take a step back and wait for him to calm down. I would repeat the process until he allowed me to unlock the door (it has a latch) and open it.

It does sound like submissive peeing to me and I think the whole key is finding the trigger. He sounds alot like my dog Jewels and she is just a very cautious dog and you have to take baby steps with her which it sounds like your doing.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

We have one entrance only, so I couldn't try your technique Nancy. I live in a condo so there really is only one way in. I don't think I take him anywhere unpleasant I take him to the park (different parks), out for walks around the complex, out to potty, the doggie park which I think he enjoys, to my parents house every weekend, and I've taken him to the vet for a full check-up when I got him and two days later for his neuter where he had bloodwork and all that done, he hasn't been back since.
He is a really shy boy, the only times I've heard a peep out of him is when I get home from somewhere and he wants to get my attention (he's upstairs in my room in his ex-pen). He did try lifting his leg the first day he got here, and I just quickly scooped him up since I knew that would make him stop mid-stream. After that I would put his belly band on him, and when I saw him try to mark I would clap twice and say "no" in a firm voice. Not like yelling but a firm no. It seemed to work so when I tried to get him to stop his obsession for licking the other dog's ear I would do the same. When clapping to distract him wouldn't cut it, I would either take Danger away (the other dog) or Kaji by picking him up. It seemed to work because he doesn't do it anymore and Danger is happier not to have a pushy little kid sticking his tongue in his ear. Kaji did whine then because he couldn't help himself, he really wanted to lick Danger's ears. Like I said he doesn't do it anymore, he can go up to Danger, sniff him, give him a quick lick but not in the obsessive manner he started with.
The only thing I can think of right now where I did push Kaji to far was brushing his hair. He got something caught in his hair and I was trying to remove it without cutting his hair and I kept pulling and pulling. Instead of taking a break when he got restless, I kept trying to get it. I realized later that all I did was aggrivate him, and now I try not to push him. If I see him getting restless I put the brush down give him five minutes, start petting him, and then try again with just a few brushes and then I give him a treat for allowing me to do so. It takes me longer to brush him this way, but I don't want him to fear the brush.
I tried to go the "set them up for success" route and repetition. For example, when I figured out that he would pee a few mins after I came back and he got settled, the first thing I would do once he was settled is pick him up, walk downstairs and give him a chance to pee in the correct place. I let him sniff to his hearts content and he chooses the pee place, I just give him options. An example of repetition is when I got him to stop jumping up in his expen when I would go get him. If he was sitting, laying down, or standing in a calm manner I would approach the door. If he started jumping up I would take a step back and wait for him to calm down. I would repeat the process until he allowed me to unlock the door (it has a latch) and open it.

It sounds like you are doing many great things, and I don't think the brush incident would have anything to do with him being fearful of going out the front door. You are right, slow is better, and I had to give Joey about 10 cheerios in order to brush him when I first started. Start at the ends, and each time go closer to the body, until the final brushing is on the body, and end with a comb to the body, this will ensure all tangles are out, a good conditioner helps a lot with this too.

I know some trainers entice with a bit of treat to help overcome a fearful situation. The small piddling sounds like submissive peeing, and many things can cause this, but perhaps a previous owner was too strict on the housebreaking. Many people still will rub the dog's nose in the mess, and hit with a newspaper, and this often leads to submissive peeing, there are other causes as well, over excitement leads to the same type of peeing, but you usually see it at the door, and the dog is wiggling, and happy to see you, and just cuts loose. Since you have no way of knowing what your dog has experienced it may be more difficult for you to discover what's the cause is, but if being afraid of the front door happened suddenly, I would try to think back and see if there was something that could have set it off. Does he do this every time you try to get him to go out the door? Have you tried enticing him with treats? Overall, I think you are doing a great job!

[DvlshAngel985]

I tried putting bits of chicken that lead to the front door and out and smarty pants here went and ate all the chicken and then promptly walked back inside.

OH MY!! I think I figured it out... in the beginning I liked having him close because I wanted to be able to watch him in case he lifted his leg. So he would come out with me even when doing laundry (the washer and dryer are out on the patio). The screen door closed and he got stuck outside while I went to grab something inside. I didn't think it was such a big deal because Danger was outside with him. But he did panic and he peed in his belly band a good big pee. I had to get him cleaned up but I didn't let him inside since he was dripping. Again I thought it was no big deal because Danger was with him basking in the sunlight. I came back with something to clean him up with and let him back inside. I think he has a fear of me leading him out then leaving him... is it a possibility?

[DvlshAngel985]

To answer your last part Nancy, he only piddles if I try to lead him out the door. If I pick him up, which usually means being talked to and cuddles and kisses all the way out the door, nothing happens. If I try to get him to follow me out, that's when he'll stop when he's close to the door, goes back upstairs and waits for me by my bed.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I tried putting bits of chicken that lead to the front door and out and smarty pants here went and ate all the chicken and then promptly walked back inside.

OH MY!! I think I figured it out... in the beginning I liked having him close because I wanted to be able to watch him in case he lifted his leg. So he would come out with me even when doing laundry (the washer and dryer are out on the patio). The screen door closed and he got stuck outside while I went to grab something inside. I didn't think it was such a big deal because Danger was outside with him. But he did panic and he peed in his belly band a good big pee. I had to get him cleaned up but I didn't let him inside since he was dripping. Again I thought it was no big deal because Danger was with him basking in the sunlight. I came back with something to clean him up with and let him back inside. I think he has a fear of me leading him out then leaving him... is it a possibility?

This incident didn't come to mind before because I figured Kaji just really had to go potty. He figured he was outside it was ok to potty. Now I'm not so sure since he was whinning at the door because he wasn't with me.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I tried putting bits of chicken that lead to the front door and out and smarty pants here went and ate all the chicken and then promptly walked back inside.

OH MY!! I think I figured it out... in the beginning I liked having him close because I wanted to be able to watch him in case he lifted his leg. So he would come out with me even when doing laundry (the washer and dryer are out on the patio). The screen door closed and he got stuck outside while I went to grab something inside. I didn't think it was such a big deal because Danger was outside with him. But he did panic and he peed in his belly band a good big pee. I had to get him cleaned up but I didn't let him inside since he was dripping. Again I thought it was no big deal because Danger was with him basking in the sunlight. I came back with something to clean him up with and let him back inside. I think he has a fear of me leading him out then leaving him... is it a possibility?

Good detective work, yes, it's very possible, and who knows how long he had to stay outside with previous owner without food or water even. Also, peeing in the belly band probably was very uncomfortable and strange feeling, dogs innately hate to be in the own urine.

Regarding throwing treats on the floor, I think you must not let them know you are out of treats, and the treats come from you, not the floor. I would call him to me, and tell him to sit, and give a treat, I would back up closer to the door, and repeat the procedure, with a treat and praise. I don't believe in giving too much praise, a simple "good boy" will do, otherwise you can over excite them if you do the baby talking, for example, "Ooh baby such a good boy, yes he is, isn't he." If he acts really anxious, that's all the further I would go, and then try again next day, but I don't think the situation was that traumatic for him and you might be able to get him to do it all in one day. I have a little pouch I fill with treats that I use to carry around with me, and that way you can train them that there's always a reason to come to you, and they never know when you are out of treats. Cheerios can work for with this because they have so few calories, and dog usually like them enough to do the behavior. If you use chicken, make sure the pieces are very small, it's not so much the amount that motivates them as the food itself.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

To answer your last part Nancy, he only piddles if I try to lead him out the door. If I pick him up, which usually means being talked to and cuddles and kisses all the way out the door, nothing happens. If I try to get him to follow me out, that's when he'll stop when he's close to the door, goes back upstairs and waits for me by my bed.

When you are picking him up, you are redirecting his thinking, so he is no longer anxious about going to the door, you can redirect with food too. I also suggest taking him on one of the walks that Cesar recommends, it's a way of walking that builds more confidence in the dog. It is his opinion that a walk is part of a dog's job, and this walk really helps the dog see his purpose. I'm probably not explaining it that well, but it's different than a stroll, and I know when I use the tips with Joey, he just seemed to take on a different stance and a different attitude. I think you need to work at building confidence and trust in your dog. It takes time, but don't forget, he just had the surgery a couple of weeks ago, and as I stated before, setbacks are common right after neutering.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Good detective work, yes, it's very possible, and who knows how long he had to stay outside with previous owner without food or water even. Also, peeing in the belly band probably was very uncomfortable and strange feeling, dogs innately hate to be in the own urine.

Regarding throwing treats on the floor, I think you must not let them know you are out of treats, and the treats come from you, not the floor. I would call him to me, and tell him to sit, and give a treat, I would back up closer to the door, and repeat the procedure, with a treat and praise. I don't believe in giving too much praise, a simple "good boy" will do, otherwise you can over excite them if you do the baby talking, for example, "Ooh baby such a good boy, yes he is, isn't he." If he acts really anxious, that's all the further I would go, and then try again next day, but I don't think the situation was that traumatic for him and you might be able to get him to do it all in one day. I have a little pouch I fill with treats that I use to carry around with me, and that way you can train them that there's always a reason to come to you, and they never know when you are out of treats. Cheerios can work for with this because they have so few calories, and dog usually like them enough to do the behavior. If you use chicken, make sure the pieces are very small, it's not so much the amount that motivates them as the food itself.

I don't think he came from a neglected household, he came from his original breeder and a YT member. But his new living situation is completely different. He use to live out in the country, or an isolated area and now he's a big city boy filled with things I'm sure he never experienced on a daily basis. He went from living in a house full of yorkies to being the only one. He is still cautious of buses, bikes, strollers, and big crowds of people, but I'm working on it. I encourage him to keep walking instead of stopping and trying to hide in the bushes. It's only been three weeks but he's gotten loads better. All I have to say it "you're ok, c'mon" and we're walking again, slowly and cautiously, but we're walking. That's progress right?

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I tried putting bits of chicken that lead to the front door and out and smarty pants here went and ate all the chicken and then promptly walked back inside.

OH MY!! I think I figured it out... in the beginning I liked having him close because I wanted to be able to watch him in case he lifted his leg. So he would come out with me even when doing laundry (the washer and dryer are out on the patio). The screen door closed and he got stuck outside while I went to grab something inside. I didn't think it was such a big deal because Danger was outside with him. But he did panic and he peed in his belly band a good big pee. I had to get him cleaned up but I didn't let him inside since he was dripping. Again I thought it was no big deal because Danger was with him basking in the sunlight. I came back with something to clean him up with and let him back inside. I think he has a fear of me leading him out then leaving him... is it a possibility?

Very possible good trying to run things through to fid the cause. keep going.
I am still thinking it submision peeing.

JL

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I don't think he came from a neglected household, he came from his original breeder and a YT member. But his new living situation is completely different. He use to live out in the country, or an isolated area and now he's a big city boy filled with things I'm sure he never experienced on a daily basis. He went from living in a house full of yorkies to being the only one. He is still cautious of buses, bikes, strollers, and big crowds of people, but I'm working on it. I encourage him to keep walking instead of stopping and trying to hide in the bushes. It's only been three weeks but he's gotten loads better. All I have to say it "you're ok, c'mon" and we're walking again, slowly and cautiously, but we're walking. That's progress right?

Oh, I'm glad to hear that, so you probably aren't going to have any really serious traumatic events to overcome, I think you are right, he's still getting use to his new environment, and this will probably take some time.

We do the power walks with Joey, but we also do the fun/play walks were he is allowed to sniff and pee on ever object. We live next to a park, so we can do the fun walks there, and the power walks are done on the regular sidewalks.

[DvlshAngel985]

I do have a park, a teeny one, on the other side of the fence from where my condo is, literraly 10 steps away. There's a bigger one across the street, and a really nice park 2 blocks away. There's plenty of space for him to roam and sniff.
And his enviroment isn't stable yet, someone new is moving in, I haven't set a schedule yet for work so I know he won't be completely settled in until all of that is done.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I do have a park, a teeny one, on the other side of the fence from where my condo is, literraly 10 steps away. There's a bigger one across the street, and a really nice park 2 blocks away. There's plenty of space for him to roam and sniff.
And his enviroment isn't stable yet, someone new is moving in, I haven't set a schedule yet for work so I know he won't be completely settled in until all of that is done.

Sounds like you're living in a place that's perfect for dogs. Yeah, I think someone knew moving in could cause a little anxiety, and I would make sure that your new roommate and you are on the same page regarding training. I know some people are great with their dogs, and then the roommate comes in and starts yelling and that can really cause a problem. If it's your dog, you make the rules regarding how he should be disciplined. Keep us updated, and I wish you the best!

[DvlshAngel985]

It's not just the new roommate, it's a new roommate AND her dog. They haven't officially moved in yet and her dog isn't around much, but I think they'll be fully moved in by the weekend. I think the new roommate will be willing to follow along any rules we have for our respective babies. There will be a total of 4 dogs running around!