Cesar debate thread

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

Very true.

Also, yes, I've seen that episode with the disabled woman and I love that episode! I absolutely adore how he can open up people as well as animals. That woman was a self-proclaimed "loner" really who didn't really have a life that she desired. She then learned that she CAN be powerful and be a good person in this world. When Cesar was trying to get her to think about something else... do you remember what she wanted to get? She really like shrimp, I think? She said "I'm goin' to get some shrimp!" and Cesar kept repeating "shrimp, shrimp, shrimp, shrimp!" to get her to NOT think about being tense or nervous, lol. I loved that.

I missed that episode, sounds great, and that's exactly what he does with the dogs, he redirects their thinking, to the calm submissive state, and they can handle small doses of anxiety. For the lady, it sounds like the thought of shrimp could put her into a more relaxed or better frame of mind. I'm simply amazed at so many of these training shows have episodes of people who no longer can socialize with other people because dogs rule their lives. Instead of enhancing their lives, the dog has become their life.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I can't really analyze the dog's behavior fully. But the thing with the tap... we're starting off by saying, "it was a small tap, a normal dog should have been able to deal with it." I think some other people are saying you have to judge the method by the dog's reaction. You can't fault the dog for its reaction, it is a dog. So if an ever so gentle tap on the hindquarters startles a dog badly enough to provoke that kind of behavior, it's a bad method. I've seen enough of Cesar's show to see that a lot of dogs DO NOT like the "tap". If I (or a strange handler) did that to Thor on a walk, even adjusted down to his size, he would jump straight into the air and cry the whole way home.

I can't say this for certain... but to me, it did not look like the dog wanted to kill Cesar, it looked like it REALLY wanted to let Cesar to let go of his leash and give him back his air supply. That's why he was biting the leash, and yes, he was gasping for air. Now would the dog have run off and picked flowers for everyone? Don't know. I think he might have just run away a to a certain distance and observed. But keep in mind, there is a huge camera crew around, and almost certainly people on hand to step in and protect the on camera people. If there are not, they should be.

Of course the dog wanted Cesar to let go of the leash. I don't think the dog was lunging because he couldn't breath tho. i think he was lunging because Cesar took control and wouldn't give in to the dog. I didn't see the whole episode but i can imagine that the owners gave in to the dog all the time and he always got his way, so when Cesar wouldn't let go the dog flipped out. There was no way Cesar could have let go of the leash at that point. He would have endangered his crew, the family, and the other dog. To many bad things could have happened if he dropped the leash. Instead Cesar let the dog flip out on him so that no one else would get hurt. I really don't think there was any thing else he could have done. if he gave the dog some more slack it would have bit him, so that was not an option. Cesar rode it out and waited for the dog to tire out, and as soon as he saw the dog give a little, he grabbed the scruff and put the dog on the ground. I've been in similar situations and i would have done the same thing. If the dog is trying to bite me, i'm not gonna let him. I'm going to do whatever it takes to prevent it.

Again, didn't see the whole episode but i'm pretty sure Cesar didn't try the tap again LOL

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by kalina82

Of course the dog wanted Cesar to let go of the leash. I don't think the dog was lunging because he couldn't breath tho. i think he was lunging because Cesar took control and wouldn't give in to the dog. I didn't see the whole episode but i can imagine that the owners gave in to the dog all the time and he always got his way, so when Cesar wouldn't let go the dog flipped out. There was no way Cesar could have let go of the leash at that point. He would have endangered his crew, the family, and the other dog. To many bad things could have happened if he dropped the leash. Instead Cesar let the dog flip out on him so that no one else would get hurt. I really don't think there was any thing else he could have done. if he gave the dog some more slack it would have bit him, so that was not an option. Cesar rode it out and waited for the dog to tire out, and as soon as he saw the dog give a little, he grabbed the scruff and put the dog on the ground. I've been in similar situations and i would have done the same thing. If the dog is trying to bite me, i'm not gonna let him. I'm going to do whatever it takes to prevent it.

Again, didn't see the whole episode but i'm pretty sure Cesar didn't try the tap again LOL

More support and agreement. The Husky was obviously not choking or in any distress. He was pissed that Cesar "invaded his space" and interrupted his intimidation of the other dog and was going to eat Cesar's face. It is amazing how quickly Cesar's calm response diffused the situation.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by kalina82

Of course the dog wanted Cesar to let go of the leash. I don't think the dog was lunging because he couldn't breath tho. i think he was lunging because Cesar took control and wouldn't give in to the dog. I didn't see the whole episode but i can imagine that the owners gave in to the dog all the time and he always got his way, so when Cesar wouldn't let go the dog flipped out. There was no way Cesar could have let go of the leash at that point. He would have endangered his crew, the family, and the other dog. To many bad things could have happened if he dropped the leash. Instead Cesar let the dog flip out on him so that no one else would get hurt. I really don't think there was any thing else he could have done. if he gave the dog some more slack it would have bit him, so that was not an option. Cesar rode it out and waited for the dog to tire out, and as soon as he saw the dog give a little, he grabbed the scruff and put the dog on the ground. I've been in similar situations and i would have done the same thing. If the dog is trying to bite me, i'm not gonna let him. I'm going to do whatever it takes to prevent it.

Again, didn't see the whole episode but i'm pretty sure Cesar didn't try the tap again LOL

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. As I said, I think the dog wanted Cesar to give him some slack on the leash, in and of itself. Not to get slack so he could bite Cesar, just to get free. How could the dog NOT be choking? He is in a choke hold! I'm not saying the dog was on the verge of death, but of course the dog was trying to get air.

It's a matter of common sense that there would be other people ready to step in to handle the situation if something happened. To NOT have that would be really stupid. What if the leash broke?

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. As I said, I think the dog wanted Cesar to give him some slack on the leash, in and of itself. Not to get slack so he could bite Cesar, just to get free. How could the dog NOT be choking? He is in a choke hold! I'm not saying the dog was on the verge of death, but of course the dog was trying to get air.

It's a matter of common sense that there would be other people ready to step in to handle the situation if something happened. To NOT have that would be really stupid. What if the leash broke?

i do agree that the dog was choking itself but there was nothing Cesar could have done at that point. If he gave the dog more slack he would have been bitten. The dog was in such a crazed state that even with slack on the leash he still would have been freaking out. I do think there are other people on hand in case of emergencies but i don't think that is a situation Cesar wants to create. He won't drop the leash so the dog can run off in his frenzied state to bite some one else. Maybe if the dog was in a fenced in yard he might have done so but he can't risk public safety on the streets. we don't know if there were neighbors or anybody not involved with the show there watching. There's only so much his crew can do. Plus Cesar doesn't want them to be bitten either.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. As I said, I think the dog wanted Cesar to give him some slack on the leash, in and of itself. Not to get slack so he could bite Cesar, just to get free. How could the dog NOT be choking? He is in a choke hold! I'm not saying the dog was on the verge of death, but of course the dog was trying to get air.

It's a matter of common sense that there would be other people ready to step in to handle the situation if something happened. To NOT have that would be really stupid. What if the leash broke?

I understand how you could see the situation differently, truly I can but please watch the video one more time.

At no time did Cesar tug on the leash or deprive the dog of oxygen. He was, however holding the leash in such a way that the dog couldn't rip his face off . When the dog lunged or came up on his two hind feet, he took up slack out of the leash so that the dog could not reach him. Cesar had complete control of the leash at all times and the amount of pressure on the leash was directly related to the amount of aggression in the dog. AND when the Husky put all four feet down on the ground the tension on the leash was released. I didn't see one point in the entire event where the Husky was lacking oxygen. He was definately way too active and aggressive to be in distress.

If you will note, too, Cesar made every attempt to continue walking, more or less ignoring the dogs aggressive temper tantrum (except for handling the leash in such a way that he wouldn't get hurt).

[chachi]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

I understand how you could see the situation differently, truly I can but please watch the video one more time.

At no time did Cesar tug on the leash or deprive the dog of oxygen. He was, however holding the leash in such a way that the dog couldn't rip his face off . When the dog lunged or came up on his two hind feet, he took up slack out of the leash so that the dog could not reach him. Cesar had complete control of the leash at all times and the amount of pressure on the leash was directly related to the amount of aggression in the dog. AND when the Husky put all four feet down on the ground the tension on the leash was released. I didn't see one point in the entire event where the Husky was lacking oxygen. He was definately way too active and aggressive to be in distress.

If you will note, too, Cesar made every attempt to continue walking, more or less ignoring the dogs aggressive temper tantrum (except for handling the leash in such a way that he wouldn't get hurt).

I agree! The dog didnt look in distress to me either

[QuickSilver]

Maybe it's splitting hairs. The dog was opening and closing its mouth in such a way that it was clearly trying to gasp. Imagine if you yourself were in that situation - someone you don't know has a firm tie around your jugular while you are walking and out of nowhere you feel a "tap" on your butt. You would naturally whirl around, and then if this stranger pulls back on your jugular, it's going to pull tight when you fall back to the ground. Would this not panic you and make you start scrabbling at the stranger to get off your neck? You still don't know what potential threat made contact with your rear.

This is why you shouldn't pull a dog away from a fight by its collar. Almost any dog worth its salt will automatically redirect a bite at this new, unfriendly restraint, in this case your hand.

I guess we have different interpretations, and I have not covered "red rocket" body language, so I'm not going to stake my life on my understanding. As yes, Cesar maintained his composure. But I don't think it should be shrugged off that there was no need to start the dog off in a high pressure situation. The owners in the clip said this dog had shown a lot of aggression towards other dogs before (Cesar said it was actually a wish to dominate), but obviously, that dog was going to be under a lot of pressure.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I can't really analyze the dog's behavior fully. But the thing with the tap... we're starting off by saying, "it was a small tap, a normal dog should have been able to deal with it." I think some other people are saying you have to judge the method by the dog's reaction. You can't fault the dog for its reaction, it is a dog. So if an ever so gentle tap on the hindquarters startles a dog badly enough to provoke that kind of behavior, it's a bad method. I've seen enough of Cesar's show to see that a lot of dogs DO NOT like the "tap". If I (or a strange handler) did that to Thor on a walk, even adjusted down to his size, he would jump straight into the air and cry the whole way home.

I can't say this for certain... but to me, it did not look like the dog wanted to kill Cesar, it looked like it REALLY wanted to let Cesar to let go of his leash and give him back his air supply. That's why he was biting the leash, and yes, he was gasping for air. Now would the dog have run off and picked flowers for everyone? Don't know. I think he might have just run away a to a certain distance and observed. But keep in mind, there is a huge camera crew around, and almost certainly people on hand to step in and protect the on camera people. If there are not, they should be.

I'm sure hindsite made Cesar realize it was the wrong move. However IMO the way the dog turned on Cesfar is just an indication of the dogs state of mind. He had already hit red zone.

There was no way he could release the dog, he had to protect all the other people, his crew, the lady that was there with the other dog, plus the other dog.

He did what he had to do. Good or bad, he had to hold on to the dog and hold it at arms length until it stopped attacking.

To me it was just a mistake in judgement.. And I sure every trainer has done that at least once. He is human.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, back for more scrapping.

Read a little on CAT, looks interesting. It actually looks like the "gypsy horse break" thing I was talking about before.

.

It is still way to new to me and I have not had enough time to get a good look at it to make any clear thoughts on it but like to de more research around it.
What we did with my girl was linited to when she took a breath, the item that concerned her left her sight. As long as they did not push into her fear zone and she stayed calm I was ok with it. Once she stiffened or held her breath I made them back off. Still not comfortable with her working inside that fear zone as under any stress as she crashs all to fast.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Read the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - AVSAB - Home statement. Googled a little on the org itself, and it appears to be well-respected. You may not agree with its conclusions, but this is not just a crackpoint-dogs should have the right to vote-type organization.

A a lay person reading the article, I am confused by some points. First, it says that scavenger dogs should be a better model for dog behavior - but when dogs play, they are clearly practicing hunting, and play behaviors, like grabbing a toy and not letting do, are the same behaviors that would tear an animals throat out.

Also, with the alpha roll - adult dogs DO roll puppies, so I'm not convinced it has no merit. If nothing else, it's an uncomfortable position for the dog, and could be used as a punishment.

Ok running short on time, i know you like to read and learn so try this bok oh and get it from Amazon ... no not an order just cheaper there it can be expensive.

Dogs, a new understanding of Canine Origin, behaviour and evolution.
By Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

In short dogs in the wold do not pack up they runs in sinlges, maybe twos and usually with an adult femle and current pups.

They can hunt rodents and small game but mostly they scavenge out of dumps and garbage cans.

As to wolves and dogs not rolling.. usually the one that looks to have been rolled has rolled itself. If a wolf rolled or faught with the leader he be fighting with dad and the main food getter and therefore putting himself at risk for starving.

Now as to dogs most calming singals and rolling be one is done more by the confident dog to tell the one that is afraid that he is not going to hurt it.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. As I said, I think the dog wanted Cesar to give him some slack on the leash, in and of itself. Not to get slack so he could bite Cesar, just to get free. How could the dog NOT be choking? He is in a choke hold! I'm not saying the dog was on the verge of death, but of course the dog was trying to get air.

It's a matter of common sense that there would be other people ready to step in to handle the situation if something happened. To NOT have that would be really stupid. What if the leash broke?

Muzzle, head harness, not getting so close to the other dog in the first place to cause that explosion woul have meet that Ceaser would not ahve been in over his head and got bite. Goal in training an aggresive dog is not to trigger a reaction and to teach it something else instead. Not set it off and choke the living day lights out of it and then stand lea n over it which is rude to a dog , when it is in full shut down.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chachi

I agree! The dog didnt look in distress to me either

Breath heavy, mouthing, shut down eyes, blinking,
total lack of the abiltiy to pull focus. That dogs was not in its own head.
That body was not limp cause he was sudmitting that body was limp cause hewas not inside anymore. That is a crushed soul.


JL

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Breath heavy, mouthing, shut down eyes, blinking,
total lack of the abiltiy to pull focus. That dogs was not in its own head.
That body was not limp cause he was sudmitting that body was limp cause hewas not inside anymore. That is a crushed soul.


JL

Oh, please.

[YorkieMother]

Unfortunately I have to stop here as I have my dog to deal with. Her health was taken a turn back to the worse and she loosing weight and she decided that just maybe it is time again to attempt a crash and burn.
So all eyes and hands are on deck to see if we can pull her through.
I am not so worried about the physical, it is the mental stuff and the lack of focus and knowing where she is that makes her a concern.
So muzzle ready and vet on stand by and here we go.
Last time she pulled this it was three weeks to get her back inside her head and thinking and going forward.
As I said somewhere in these last few days or I should have this is not a game for me. This is life and death for one little girl. one wrong move and she checks out and there is the great possibility she does not check back in.
Then we loose her for good. 7 years and no quick fixes and believe you me if there was I have done it and found it. No stone unturned.
I have looked and worked and gave up a great deal just to find one thing that one thing that makes her whole.
I give anything for this wee girl, my wee girl to be whole. She never will be. Poor breeding ( incredibally bad genetics), poor soicalization, rough start with a differnt owner and then me pulling tbe domanint crap on her,..... poor dear is lucky she even alive. No she was luck she got a vet that could help and was willing to teach and guide and a Mum that will not give up on her.
This wee girl my wee girl will still try to make it to the bathroom to have an accident and even into the shower all on her own. Without being taught. She is blind, confused and not all that happy right now. Man can we back up to Sunday when we thought we had this fixed.
MY child, my furry girl that taught me all about boucing back, over coming and trying till you can not and then coming back and trying again needs her Mum.

So consider it a pause will talk more latter..

JL