Cesar debate thread

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, then, I feel that I have expressed my opinions on this, but I'm happy to repeat myself. In my non-expert opinion, I don't think Cesar has handled all that many truly extreme, aggressive cases. Lots of his training is fine. However, he often acts in a provocative way towards dogs, and then uses their reactions to prove his original contention. In several episodes in early seasons, I saw dogs make moves as if to bite him (always accompanied by ominous music). If those dogs had really been aggressive, they wouldn't have been posturing. Cesar was actually lucky that those dogs were much less aggressive than he claimed. I'm not even sure it's all Cesar -- I think the format of the show likes to emphasize the scariness of the dogs Cesar is working with and how they are THIS CLOSE to being put to sleep.

As I have also said, most of the owners Cesar works with are c-l-u-e-less. They know absolutely nothing about dogs, most have never taken their problem dogs to a class or a trainer. Who here on YT would complain about their horrifically aggressive yorkie, make no effort to train it, and then decide it should be PTS because it was such a problem? I mentioned a show where a dog rolled on its back in an effort to pacify Cesar and the owners thought the dog was taking a nap!

It is true I have much less experience with dogs than Cesar, and I would not be able to get the kind of results he does - not even close. Maybe in ten years. At the same time, you don't seem to give any weight to people who have studied dogs for years if their opinions don't mesh with your own, so I'm not sure why I should be held to a different standard.

I think we have to remember that we only see a tiny portion of the training this man does. He's worked with dogs for so many years and we only see what's on tv. we dont know what kind of cases he's done before TDW or what he does that doesn't get aired.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, then, I feel that I have expressed my opinions on this, but I'm happy to repeat myself. In my non-expert opinion, I don't think Cesar has handled all that many truly extreme, aggressive cases. Lots of his training is fine. However, he often acts in a provocative way towards dogs, and then uses their reactions to prove his original contention. In several episodes in early seasons, I saw dogs make moves as if to bite him (always accompanied by ominous music). If those dogs had really been aggressive, they wouldn't have been posturing. Cesar was actually lucky that those dogs were much less aggressive than he claimed. I'm not even sure it's all Cesar -- I think the format of the show likes to emphasize the scariness of the dogs Cesar is working with and how they are THIS CLOSE to being put to sleep.

As I have also said, most of the owners Cesar works with are c-l-u-e-less. They know absolutely nothing about dogs, most have never taken their problem dogs to a class or a trainer. Who here on YT would complain about their horrifically aggressive yorkie, make no effort to train it, and then decide it should be PTS because it was such a problem? I mentioned a show where a dog rolled on its back in an effort to pacify Cesar and the owners thought the dog was taking a nap!

It is true I have much less experience with dogs than Cesar, and I would not be able to get the kind of results he does - not even close. Maybe in ten years. At the same time, you don't seem to give any weight to people who have studied dogs for years if their opinions don't mesh with your own, so I'm not sure why I should be held to a different standard.

Mercury, what Cesar does is NOT magic. Or mysterious or abusive. Keeping the TV series in context, I am sure that the cases that are shown on TV are more extreme than the normal doggie problems so we see the extreme end of the training scale.

If you spent a few hours with him, or with any trainer and gave yourself permission you could glean techniques and taylor them to suit your lifestyle. It isn't about emulating a specific trainer, its about finding specific training techniques that will work.

Think about a training technique as a computer program module. You modify modules to suit a customer's needs -- there is seldom a case where a customer would buy a business application off the shelf that would work without modification. The same is true with dog training. You glean, modify, test and if it works keep it, if it doesn't work, either you debug or you ditch it and start over.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by kalina82

I think we have to remember that we only see a tiny portion of the training this man does. He's worked with dogs for so many years and we only see what's on tv. we dont know what kind of cases he's done before TDW or what he does that doesn't get aired.

We also do not see what he edits out. Or reorders around so that things look better then they are.
We do not see him aplha roll a dog off camera. we do not see him run the dog until he nearly drops. We do no see him zap a dog until he redirects a bite.
But it is done.
When watching the vidoe did you look at the dogs body language at all what did you see for eye blinks. head turns, shake offs, etc.
All signs of stress. Dog should not have been allowed to get to the state that it went off. No good learning can happen in that state and the indicators that he was going to go off are the lip lick and shake off etc. You back up a step or two in training so the dog can not rehearse that which you do not want and get the behaviour you do want and capture that.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Mercury, what Cesar does is NOT magic. Or mysterious or abusive. Keeping the TV series in context, I am sure that the cases that are shown on TV are more extreme than the normal doggie problems so we see the extreme end of the training scale.

If you spent a few hours with him, or with any trainer and gave yourself permission you could glean techniques and taylor them to suit your lifestyle. It isn't about emulating a specific trainer, its about finding specific training techniques that will work.

Think about a training technique as a computer program module. You modify modules to suit a customer's needs -- there is seldom a case where a customer would buy a business application off the shelf that would work without modification. The same is true with dog training. You glean, modify, test and if it works keep it, if it doesn't work, either you debug or you ditch it and start over.

I have spent any number of hours with several trainers and behaviorists.. lucky me and I do just that pick and choice what works for the dog I working on or couching client about.
But all to many do emulate Ceaser and his macho ways and dogs are paying the price.
Actually having thought of it quicksilvers view is right most of the dogs he works with have stinking amazing bite control...hummm. now what is up with that??? Must go ask a freind.... face book calling
Oh yes I know now cherry picked.... cool why did I not think of that.

JL

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

At the same time, you don't seem to give any weight to people who have studied dogs for years if their opinions don't mesh with your own, so I'm not sure why I should be held to a different standard.

But this thread is not the "quicksilver debate thread". It's about Cesar Milan and those who are tryhing to discredit him.

I have no idea how you train, I imagine you must effective or no one would hire you. I train my dogs too but this thread isn't about me either. I use Cesars metods and they work for me. Victoria's are way too time comsuming and too many treats and gadgets. Besides, since I used Cesar's metod I have no reason to use victoria's or yours or any other of the books that have been suggested.

[QuickSilver]

Hi, I know I promised to post in this thread, but I just wanted to clarify, I am not a professional trainer, far from it. I'm very interested in training, I try to read a lot about it, and I volunteer at a rescue so I see a lot of "problem" behaviors. It's not my job to fix them though. Maybe someday.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

We also do not see what he edits out. Or reorders around so that things look better then they are.
We do not see him aplha roll a dog off camera. we do not see him run the dog until he nearly drops. We do no see him zap a dog until he redirects a bite.
But it is done.
When watching the vidoe did you look at the dogs body language at all what did you see for eye blinks. head turns, shake offs, etc.
All signs of stress. Dog should not have been allowed to get to the state that it went off. No good learning can happen in that state and the indicators that he was going to go off are the lip lick and shake off etc. You back up a step or two in training so the dog can not rehearse that which you do not want and get the behaviour you do want and capture that.

JL

Your right we don't see what is edited. Why do you assume those things you mentioned even happen? Do you have proof?

I watched the video with the sound off like you suggested first. I saw him walking along at first, then stare the other dog down. cesar tapped him and the dog flipped out. You can't really see any of the things you mention while the dog is jumping and biting. afterwards the dog just lays there while cesar is talking. One lick lip, no shaking, no head turns. Cesar does not hold him down nor alpha roll him.

did you watch the video? what would you have done in that exact situation? do tell?

what we don't get to see is what happens before hand in this video. I can't find the whole episode online so this video isn't really helpful because we can't see the whole thing. its hard to judge his methods on a partial video

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by kalina82

what we don't get to see is what happens before hand in this video. I can't find the whole episode online so this video isn't really helpful because we can't see the whole thing. its hard to judge his methods on a partial video

Humm??? I am at this time not able to even find the link in this thread.. odd.
Oh well you are right though we need to see all of it even the stuff on the cutting room floor.

JL

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

We also do not see what he edits out. Or reorders around so that things look better then they are.
We do not see him aplha roll a dog off camera. we do not see him run the dog until he nearly drops. We do no see him zap a dog until he redirects a bite.
But it is done.
When watching the vidoe did you look at the dogs body language at all what did you see for eye blinks. head turns, shake offs, etc.
All signs of stress. Dog should not have been allowed to get to the state that it went off. No good learning can happen in that state and the indicators that he was going to go off are the lip lick and shake off etc. You back up a step or two in training so the dog can not rehearse that which you do not want and get the behaviour you do want and capture that.

JL

Cesar was kind of preoccpied with trying to keep the dog from ripping his throat out, he did not have a lot of time to analyze the dogs eye blinks. You're like an arm chair quarterback. You can see all the mistakes that were made, but you do not put yourself in his position.

And there come those accusations again. I've asked you before, if this is true and someone has firsthand knowledge of him abusing dogs, why hasn't it been reported to the athorities. It is a crime not to report animal abuse.

Why don't you have your own TV show? You could be the Canadian Dog Whisperer. Is it his training method that you don't like or his fame?

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Hi, I know I promised to post in this thread, but I just wanted to clarify, I am not a professional trainer, far from it. I'm very interested in training, I try to read a lot about it, and I volunteer at a rescue so I see a lot of "problem" behaviors. It's not my job to fix them though. Maybe someday.

Aww wish I had more time to do rescue work. Maybe someday.

JL

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Humm??? I am at this time not able to even find the link in this thread.. odd.
Oh well you are right though we need to see all of it even the stuff on the cutting room floor.

JL

forget about the cutting room floor for a minute. here is the video posted. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/2749576-post217.html i know you wouldn't have tapped the dog but lets suppose the dog just lunged at you for whatever reason. how would you have handled it? i would like to know because i've done the same thing Cesar has done to prevent getting bitten. any other ways of handling a dog like that would be great.

[chattiesmom]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

I have spent any number of hours with several trainers and behaviorists.. lucky me and I do just that pick and choice what works for the dog I working on or couching client about.
But all to many do emulate Ceaser and his macho ways and dogs are paying the price.
Actually having thought of it quicksilvers view is right most of the dogs he works with have stinking amazing bite control...hummm. now what is up with that??? Must go ask a freind.... face book calling
Oh yes I know now cherry picked.... cool why did I not think of that.

JL

Fortunately for me, I have spent countless hours over the past 20 - 30 years with many well respected dog trainers (obedience, agility, even a police K-9 trainer from Belgum) a few horse trainers as well as attending a plethora of teaching classes and reading countless books including Cesar's. Lucky me. I have respected and learned from all.

I have found that the best training methods involve thinking on your feet, being creative and not closing your mind to any method that will work as long as I do not get hurt, my dog does not get hurt and my dog is more relaxed at the end of the training session than at the beginning.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by kalina82

forget about the cutting room floor for a minute. here is the video posted. http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/2749576-post217.html i know you wouldn't have tapped the dog but lets suppose the dog just lunged at you for whatever reason. how would you have handled it? i would like to know because i've done the same thing Cesar has done to prevent getting bitten. any other ways of handling a dog like that would be great.

First of all I never set a dog up to lunge at me. Way I train is not to have a dog repeat and there for ingrain a behavior.
He set that boy up to fail and he is choking. That is gasping for air.
He is fighting cause he is choking.

Ton of lip licks and a ton of blinks.
As for the kick not needed if he not set him up of fail.

That was him trying to save him self and keep alive and on the ground is whipped puppy that had given up.

JL

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by chattiesmom

Fortunately for me, I have spent countless hours over the past 20 - 30 years with many well respected dog trainers (obedience, agility, even a police K-9 trainer from Belgum) a few horse trainers as well as attending a plethora of teaching classes and reading countless books including Cesar's. Lucky me. I have respected and learned from all.

I have found that the best training methods involve thinking on your feet, being creative and not closing your mind to any method that will work as long as I do not get hurt, my dog does not get hurt and my dog is more relaxed at the end of the training session than at the beginning.

If my mind was closed than I would not have to attend seminars or read books or go to confrences.
I also not be looking at the C.A.T. method of dog training that is working from a dirffent angle of training altogether. Cool direction they are going and have some of it done on my girl.
C.A.T. method does not set the dog up to fail either.
http://www.tawzerdogvideos.com/Jesus...llieSnider.htm


JL

[QuickSilver]

Okay, back for more scrapping.

Read a little on CAT, looks interesting. It actually looks like the "gypsy horse break" thing I was talking about before.

Watched the husky vid with Cesar. I think that's past my abilities to analyze. I do see that the husky did not turn on Cesar until Cesar kicked / tapped / nudged / sprinkled the dog with fairy foot dust . Why not use a gentler technique and save yourself the cost of a new shirt? It's also well known that dogs often get more aggressive when they feel restrained (like, if you have a leash tied up behind your ears). I have made that mistake myself. I was walking a dog-aggressive boxer, and these people with their dog ran up to greet me and tell me how beautiful she was. My error, I should have warned them away, but I wasn't quick enough, and I pulled the boxer's leash tightly to keep him under control. That prompted him to snap at the other dog. I felt awful, hopefully lesson learned for me.

My guess is that Cesar wished he put a muzzle on the dog. I'm also guessing that another trainer would put much less pressure on a dog to begin with. VS generally starts by walking the aggressive dog well behind a calm one, and gradually letting the dog sniff the front dog's butt. Then maybe they start walking side by side, but 50 feet apart. If the dog begins to aggress, she takes a time out. Gradually, the dogs get closer and closer, until the dog can tolerate face to face contact.