Cesar debate thread

[QuickSilver]

Misc thought: I understand the pleasure of the power walk. I started out walking Thor this way, and I've devolved back to relaxed, sniff what you want walk (though I do not let him walk in front of me. I don't believe it means he's alpha, but it does mean he isn't paying attention to me). I want to get ready to formally teach him the Heel command. Anyway, it used to crack me up looking at him on a Power Walk, because he really looked all business. Put a little suit and cell phone on him, and he could have running late to close a million dollar deal.

[QuickSilver]

Read the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior - AVSAB - Home statement. Googled a little on the org itself, and it appears to be well-respected. You may not agree with its conclusions, but this is not just a crackpoint-dogs should have the right to vote-type organization.

A a lay person reading the article, I am confused by some points. First, it says that scavenger dogs should be a better model for dog behavior - but when dogs play, they are clearly practicing hunting, and play behaviors, like grabbing a toy and not letting do, are the same behaviors that would tear an animals throat out.

Also, with the alpha roll - adult dogs DO roll puppies, so I'm not convinced it has no merit. If nothing else, it's an uncomfortable position for the dog, and could be used as a punishment.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

First of all I never set a dog up to lunge at me. Way I train is not to have a dog repeat and there for ingrain a behavior.
He set that boy up to fail and he is choking. That is gasping for air.
He is fighting cause he is choking.

Ton of lip licks and a ton of blinks.
As for the kick not needed if he not set him up of fail.

That was him trying to save him self and keep alive and on the ground is whipped puppy that had given up.

JL

You do not know what that dog would have done. Cesar was holding the dog in tht way so the dog could not get to his face.

You did not answer the question.

What would you have done if the dog were lunging at your face, especially being a woman and not as strong as Cesar?

And Cesar hardly had time to look at lip licking he was a little busy.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Okay, back for more scrapping.

Read a little on CAT, looks interesting. It actually looks like the "gypsy horse break" thing I was talking about before.

Watched the husky vid with Cesar. I think that's past my abilities to analyze. I do see that the husky did not turn on Cesar until Cesar kicked / tapped / nudged / sprinkled the dog with fairy foot dust . Why not use a gentler technique and save yourself the cost of a new shirt? It's also well known that dogs often get more aggressive when they feel restrained (like, if you have a leash tied up behind your ears). I have made that mistake myself. I was walking a dog-aggressive boxer, and these people with their dog ran up to greet me and tell me how beautiful she was. My error, I should have warned them away, but I wasn't quick enough, and I pulled the boxer's leash tightly to keep him under control. That prompted him to snap at the other dog. I felt awful, hopefully lesson learned for me.

My guess is that Cesar wished he put a muzzle on the dog. I'm also guessing that another trainer would put much less pressure on a dog to begin with. VS generally starts by walking the aggressive dog well behind a calm one, and gradually letting the dog sniff the front dog's butt. Then maybe they start walking side by side, but 50 feet apart. If the dog begins to aggress, she takes a time out. Gradually, the dogs get closer and closer, until the dog can tolerate face to face contact.

I'm sure in hindsight Cesar could see his errors also. Hind sight is great, unless you are the hind dog then the sight not so great.

I'm sure he learns from his mistakes too. but also being a man and being stronger he probably takes greater risk than a woman would.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

First of all I never set a dog up to lunge at me. Way I train is not to have a dog repeat and there for ingrain a behavior.
He set that boy up to fail and he is choking. That is gasping for air.
He is fighting cause he is choking.

Ton of lip licks and a ton of blinks.
As for the kick not needed if he not set him up of fail.

That was him trying to save him self and keep alive and on the ground is whipped puppy that had given up.

JL

You didn't really answer the question though - WHAT would you do if a dog lunged at you? Don't give "a dog would never lunge at me" because that's not true. An agressive, unstable dog would lunge at anybody. You simply repeated what we already know you think... yes, the dog was "choking" and "miserable" but what would YOU do if a dog lunged at you, like so?

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Misc thought: I understand the pleasure of the power walk. I started out walking Thor this way, and I've devolved back to relaxed, sniff what you want walk (though I do not let him walk in front of me. I don't believe it means he's alpha, but it does mean he isn't paying attention to me). I want to get ready to formally teach him the Heel command. Anyway, it used to crack me up looking at him on a Power Walk, because he really looked all business. Put a little suit and cell phone on him, and he could have running late to close a million dollar deal.

LOL, so true. I can see little Thor now. You should buy him a suit - that'd be great.

And I usually let Jackson wander off at some point in the walk as well. I think it's only fair. He does so great walking that I like to let him sniff what he wants, mark whatever trees he wants, and then we'll go back to me being in control for the last part of the walk. Generally, I like to start and end the walk that way.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Britster

LOL, so true. I can see little Thor now. You should buy him a suit - that'd be great.

And I usually let Jackson wander off at some point in the walk as well. I think it's only fair. He does so great walking that I like to let him sniff what he wants, mark whatever trees he wants, and then we'll go back to me being in control for the last part of the walk. Generally, I like to start and end the walk that way.

Cesar has let up a little on the not allowing the dog to walk in front, he has instructed people to let the dog investigate for a while.

I think Cesar is learning and and adjusting his method all along.

No trainer knows it all and there is always more to learn.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

Cesar has let up a little on the not allowing the dog to walk in front, he has instructed people to let the dog investigate for a while.

I think Cesar is learning and and adjusting his method all along.

No trainer knows it all and there is always more to learn.

Yep, he does. I watched an episode the other day where he was just sooo happy that the dog was walking, he didn't care that the dog was walking in front. It all depends on the kind of case. If he has a case of a dog who's never walked on a leash before or hated the leash, he for sure allows them to walk in front. It's not a set-in-stone rule that he is. He changes them up for every case because every case is different.

[Gingergirlsmom]

I love Cesar. I also like Victoria. I struggle enough with my two angels, I think anyone who is able to work with difficult dogs and their owners and turn a miserable situation into a pleasant one must be doing something right. Even if their methods disagree. There is more than one way to skin...

That being said, I watched the video of Cesar with the husky several times and I saw the little tap Cesar gave the dog on his hind quarters. It was a little tap. I'm sorry, I just can't see that as abusive. The rest of the time, Cesar remained incredibly calm, I gotta tell you if that dog were coming at me like that, I'd be on the floor in a fetal position. So, maybe, if nothing else, watching Cesar is teaching me to approach mine and other animals calmly, no matter what. How can that be a bad thing?

[Gingergirlsmom]

Oh, and I know a really sad story about a golden retriever. He was a sweet dog. He was a huge retriever. He was turned into a local shelter because he had bitten his owner's hand. The doc at the emergency room said it was the worst dog bite he had ever seen.

The dog was taken in by a no-kill shelter and sent to live with a local trainer who uses only positive methods and who has had a ton of success with rehabilitating dogs. After 6 months, he attacked and bit her. He's since been put down.

I'm not saying another trainer might have had different results. But, I'm saying I think there is room to believe that no one method or type of training is perfect.

jmo

[Gingergirlsmom]

Oh, and did anyone see the eppy where he helped the disabled woman's dog calm down on the bus? She was starting to limit her outings because her service dog got so stressed on the bus she was afraid he'd bolt. Cesar also helped her add a rabbit to her little family and bolstered the woman's confidence as well. I love that one!

By the end of the show I'm watching a calm, relaxed, and happy dog climb on and ride the bus. Even I can read enough dog body language to see that.

I'm not saying he's never made mistakes, but he could come train my two anytime.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Gingergirlsmom

Oh, and I know a really sad story about a golden retriever. He was a sweet dog. He was a huge retriever. He was turned into a local shelter because he had bitten his owner's hand. The doc at the emergency room said it was the worst dog bite he had ever seen.

The dog was taken in by a no-kill shelter and sent to live with a local trainer who uses only positive methods and who has had a ton of success with rehabilitating dogs. After 6 months, he attacked and bit her. He's since been put down.

I'm not saying another trainer might have had different results. But, I'm saying I think there is room to believe that no one method or type of training is perfect.

jmo

Excellent point.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by Gingergirlsmom

I love Cesar. I also like Victoria. I struggle enough with my two angels, I think anyone who is able to work with difficult dogs and their owners and turn a miserable situation into a pleasant one must be doing something right. Even if their methods disagree. There is more than one way to skin...

That being said, I watched the video of Cesar with the husky several times and I saw the little tap Cesar gave the dog on his hind quarters. It was a little tap. I'm sorry, I just can't see that as abusive. The rest of the time, Cesar remained incredibly calm, I gotta tell you if that dog were coming at me like that, I'd be on the floor in a fetal position. So, maybe, if nothing else, watching Cesar is teaching me to approach mine and other animals calmly, no matter what. How can that be a bad thing?

I can't really analyze the dog's behavior fully. But the thing with the tap... we're starting off by saying, "it was a small tap, a normal dog should have been able to deal with it." I think some other people are saying you have to judge the method by the dog's reaction. You can't fault the dog for its reaction, it is a dog. So if an ever so gentle tap on the hindquarters startles a dog badly enough to provoke that kind of behavior, it's a bad method. I've seen enough of Cesar's show to see that a lot of dogs DO NOT like the "tap". If I (or a strange handler) did that to Thor on a walk, even adjusted down to his size, he would jump straight into the air and cry the whole way home.

I can't say this for certain... but to me, it did not look like the dog wanted to kill Cesar, it looked like it REALLY wanted to let Cesar to let go of his leash and give him back his air supply. That's why he was biting the leash, and yes, he was gasping for air. Now would the dog have run off and picked flowers for everyone? Don't know. I think he might have just run away a to a certain distance and observed. But keep in mind, there is a huge camera crew around, and almost certainly people on hand to step in and protect the on camera people. If there are not, they should be.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by Gingergirlsmom

Oh, and I know a really sad story about a golden retriever. He was a sweet dog. He was a huge retriever. He was turned into a local shelter because he had bitten his owner's hand. The doc at the emergency room said it was the worst dog bite he had ever seen.

The dog was taken in by a no-kill shelter and sent to live with a local trainer who uses only positive methods and who has had a ton of success with rehabilitating dogs. After 6 months, he attacked and bit her. He's since been put down.

I'm not saying another trainer might have had different results. But, I'm saying I think there is room to believe that no one method or type of training is perfect.

jmo

Very true.

Also, yes, I've seen that episode with the disabled woman and I love that episode! I absolutely adore how he can open up people as well as animals. That woman was a self-proclaimed "loner" really who didn't really have a life that she desired. She then learned that she CAN be powerful and be a good person in this world. When Cesar was trying to get her to think about something else... do you remember what she wanted to get? She really like shrimp, I think? She said "I'm goin' to get some shrimp!" and Cesar kept repeating "shrimp, shrimp, shrimp, shrimp!" to get her to NOT think about being tense or nervous, lol. I loved that.

[Britster]

I'll be tuning into the Dog Whisperer today in 20 minutes Anyone else? lol.
I'm actually babysitting my brother today, so perfect day to watch it.