Cesar debate thread

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by Akbritt

Thank you

Hope it is all useful and helpful.
All I can find in such short notice.
Need More I may be able to pull some of the stuff I worte if I have that memory stick unpacked.

JL

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Actually, I think many of us believe Cesar's methods, to be very new and innovative. I see Victoria's methods, as extremely old.

Yes I agree
Cesar has studied dog packs and has studied how they communicate with each other.

That is what the magic is. Not how he handles agressive dogs.

He walks into a room watches the dog and then makes one move and the dog stops his bad behavior. That is the magic.

The rehab of agressive dogs takes much more but it still boils down to learning how to communicate with the dog.

As I stated earlier, a dog that was removed from his mother too soon does not understand dog language, so he has to figure out how to gt thrugh to them.

He first has to teach them the language and sometimes that can be difficult and takes getting physical. But if left the way they are they would have to be put down.

Other methods may work too, but this is how he does it. IMO the touch with the foot is like the sdwat on the butt of a 2 year old who refuses to listen. It just gets their attention and lets them know that yhou mean business. And no it is not done in anger.

Some people believe that spending hours in a battle of wills with a child, to get them to stay in time out, is the way to go. I believe a quick swat on the butt is much more effective and less damagiing to the child. It does not break their spirit, it merely lets them know that they had better stop what they are doing and stop it now.

And since child behavior specialists change their reccomendations every generation, I'm sure 20 years from now, time outs will be considered old school.

As for giving dogs drugs to control their behavior, I believe that is jsut as bad as giving children drugs to control their behavior. Too many kids are put on drugs when what they really need is more exercise, more sleep, more attention, and a better diet. But parents don't want to hear that.

[QuickSilver]

I've got to stop reading this thread, ha ha.

Just want to say one thing about VS recommending meds for that dog. First, while I like VS very much, I don't worship her or think she is flawless. Maybe it was wrong to give the dog meds, I can't say. However, I do want to point out that I believe this is the first time on the show she has ever recommended meds for a dog, and I was happy to see her do it, because many dogs can benefit from medication, just like people do. I think more people should be aware of this option for seriously damaged dogs.

It's a very interesting area, and it gives us insight about how these drugs work on us, since they are probably affecting the same brain areas. A common model of the brain is the oldest part of the brain, our reptile brain, which is really basic stuff like fear; then on top of that is the mammal brain, which has things like social function; then we have our big crinkly cerebellum that gives us things like abstract thought. Obviously grossly simplified, but that indicates that meds that work in dogs and humans are working under the cerebellum.

Anyway, VS also brought in an experienced veterinarian to assess the dog as well, she didn't just say, this dog seems upset, let's give it some drugs.

[Britster]

I haven't been commenting on this thread in a few hours because I was running some errands and have been out of the house, but I just caught up. I really have nothing more to say yet, as Chattiesmom and Nancy have basically summed up all of my thoughts and are much better explaining than I am so there's no need for me to add more.

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Also dogs in the wild do not pack and well somes pack is not a normal setting for a dog. Just like some humans are happy alone so are some dogs.

JL

I wanted to make a comment on this quote though... I honestly don't believe a person is truly happy alone. That's just my belief. I love my alone time but would never want to live the rest of my life truly alone. I've met a few people in my life who live really sad lives really and they act as if they're happy, but you can see by looking in their eyes that they're not. I know that's a little bit O/T but I just wanted to state my opinion on that. Yes, some adult dogs would prefer to be the only dog in the house but they were not born that way; they were born in a pack. Humans create a dog who wants to be the only dog by spoiling them, and then they learn that when another dog comes into the picture, attention goes off me but I don't think it's a natural way of dogs being. Dogs are highly social creatures who, in my opinion, need interaction of a lot of friends of their own species to fully live their life.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I've got to stop reading this thread, ha ha.

Just want to say one thing about VS recommending meds for that dog. First, while I like VS very much, I don't worship her or think she is flawless. Maybe it was wrong to give the dog meds, I can't say. However, I do want to point out that I believe this is the first time on the show she has ever recommended meds for a dog, and I was happy to see her do it, because many dogs can benefit from medication, just like people do. I think more people should be aware of this option for seriously damaged dogs.

It's a very interesting area, and it gives us insight about how these drugs work on us, since they are probably affecting the same brain areas. A common model of the brain is the oldest part of the brain, our reptile brain, which is really basic stuff like fear; then on top of that is the mammal brain, which has things like social function; then we have our big crinkly cerebellum that gives us things like abstract thought. Obviously grossly simplified, but that indicates that meds that work in dogs and humans are working under the cerebellum.

Anyway, VS also brought in an experienced veterinarian to assess the dog as well, she didn't just say, this dog seems upset, let's give it some drugs.

Sometimes I think you want to either fully endorse someone or hate them, I don't think this is really necessary, since as many have said earlier, not everything is known yet. You give great tips on the training forum and I love reading your replies, but I don't care where you've learned them, if they sound like something that would work for Joey, I will try it, (as long as I don't think it's abusive). I do want to make it clear that I'm not against meds; I thought she should have tried training first, but all she did was remove the other dog, and notice that the dog was anxious. When the vet came he noted it too, and believed the dog could be helped with the drugs. Then after the dog was on drugs, she tried the experiment of removing the anxious dog first, and taking it out of the house, and then removing the dog's pal. Since the dog could not see the removal of his pal, when he returned, he suffered from no anxiety. It was not the fact that the dog wasn't there; it was seeing the dog removed that made him anxious. She later said that the drugs take several weeks to work, yet her experiment worked immediately. I'm saying that the experiment should have been performed before the drugs, perhaps they weren't necessary.

I've seen Cesar do the same thing, and he gets the dogs into a relaxed state, and moves the other dog further from first dog, in small steps, if the first dog shows any anxiety, Cesar backs up, and calms the dog down, and continually reinforces with this calming type of behavior, the second dog eventually goes to the next room, and finally the door is closed, the steps are tiny, and where most trainer would do this with a food reward, Cesar is using this calming stance with them as the reward. Someone else could probably explain this calming thing better than me, but I really love the idea of training without all the food rewards, or meds. However, nearly all my training with Joey has involved food rewards. They are still useful for potty training, trick training, and getting Joey use to new people.

[JoshieBoy]

I like Cesar, because he taught me how dogs think and behave in their pack.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Britster

I haven't been commenting on this thread in a few hours because I was running some errands and have been out of the house, but I just caught up. I really have nothing more to say yet, as Chattiesmom and Nancy have basically summed up all of my thoughts and are much better explaining than I am so there's no need for me to add more.



I wanted to make a comment on this quote though... I honestly don't believe a person is truly happy alone. That's just my belief. I love my alone time but would never want to live the rest of my life truly alone. I've met a few people in my life who live really sad lives really and they act as if they're happy, but you can see by looking in their eyes that they're not. I know that's a little bit O/T but I just wanted to state my opinion on that. Yes, some adult dogs would prefer to be the only dog in the house but they were not born that way; they were born in a pack. Humans create a dog who wants to be the only dog by spoiling them, and then they learn that when another dog comes into the picture, attention goes off me but I don't think it's a natural way of dogs being. Dogs are highly social creatures who, in my opinion, need interaction of a lot of friends of their own species to fully live their life.

I thoroughly agree with this! Those people who would rather live alone, have learned that is easier for them. Some people just don't have the skills to cope with other people, and many have had traumatic events and huge betrayals, by what they thought were their loved ones.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I would love to see you train horses! I'm sure I would learn tons. Maybe I will be able to take you up on that sometime.

I guess my question for those of us who don't have farms, is where is the science behind Cesar's methods? What papers have been written, documenting the principles of Cesar's methods? What journals are they in? Who is trying to apply Cesar's techniques to other species? What conferences exist? Who is trying to extend Cesar's method further? Are people trying to precisely define the term "energy"?

Even if science gets it wrong the first couple dozen times, you have to keep trying and studying to progress. Otherwise, you just stay in the circus, beating elephants with sticks, because that's what your trainer taught you, and that's the way it's always been done.

Cesars method and theory is centered around having studied how dogs communicate with each other and communicating with them in the same manner. Just like Monty Roberts does with horses.

Cesar is the leading athority on this method and he has written books on it. I am quite sure that he has read dogs wrong and has learned along the wayd. That is what life is all about.

He says he is not a dog trainer, he trains people, he rehabilitates dogs..

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Thing is that dog should not have been in that close anyway.
To train a dog you need it to be not under stress so that it can learn.
Out of the " zone" the dog been calm and paying attention to the handler and therefor no " BUMP" be needed, nor a choke.

When under stress how is your memory?
What do you remeber say after a car accident?
Usually not much niether does the dog.

JL

How can you work on the issue of the dog attacking other dogs, unless you bring in another dog? The dog was just fine until the other dog came into the picture. He tried to get the dog to refocus by bumping him. Well the dog refocused allright. He refocused on Cesar. I'm sure every trainer has misread a dog if they work with enough of them.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Cesar may use new words, but that doesn't make it a new technique, any more than if I taught students using repetition and called it, "brain wave sharpener."

I don't understand, if Cesar's methods are new, why would scientists not be thrilled to use his findings to move forward? Why doesn't he have researchers following him around, the way Pryor did? You can say, oh, science is biased, but surely SOME would be interested.

Not sure why researches would need to follow him around, and maybe they are, how do you know they aren't?

He has written all there is to know about his dog psycology. not much more to be said if you agree with it. Of course there is a lot to be said if you don't agree.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

Oh you forgot the new stuff for dog alhzieners and the new drugs for that.
Fact that old dogs loose life skills just like a human and are not to rule the world.
Oh yes and the stuff they are working with with sound and music to calm dogs.
The leg work around bio calm and composure as well as off lable use of prozac in dogs not only for PTSD.

Yes on PTSD got it here in the house.

JL

Why not just put the whole world on Prozac and then there wouold be no wars, everyone would be happy.

Now there is a situation that has been studdied to death. But nothing being done. Too many people on anti depressents, and mind altering drugs. Many of them just need to get a life and to stop expecting the world to make them happy.

Children on drugs, sit in classrooms like zombies.

Now you think we need to drug our animals as well?

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

It is not instinct at all if it where then Ceaser understand what the dogs body is saying. He not even close in some cases.


JL

That is a matter of opinion. I'm sure he doesn't always get it right, but then I'm sure that you don't either. It's all learning all the time, with everything in life. When you get older and wiser you will realize that you don't know nearly as much as you thought you did.

[YorkieMother]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I've got to stop reading this thread, ha ha.

Just want to say one thing about VS recommending meds for that dog. First, while I like VS very much, I don't worship her or think she is flawless. Maybe it was wrong to give the dog meds, I can't say. However, I do want to point out that I believe this is the first time on the show she has ever recommended meds for a dog, and I was happy to see her do it, because many dogs can benefit from medication, just like people do. I think more people should be aware of this option for seriously damaged dogs.

It's a very interesting area, and it gives us insight about how these drugs work on us, since they are probably affecting the same brain areas. A common model of the brain is the oldest part of the brain, our reptile brain, which is really basic stuff like fear; then on top of that is the mammal brain, which has things like social function; then we have our big crinkly cerebellum that gives us things like abstract thought. Obviously grossly simplified, but that indicates that meds that work in dogs and humans are working under the cerebellum.

Anyway, VS also brought in an experienced veterinarian to assess the dog as well, she didn't just say, this dog seems upset, let's give it some drugs.

Drugs would not been given by her without a vet or a behaviorist able to write the prescription doing so.
Which requires blood tests and a check of the thyroid and blood count as well as a full physical to rule out other causes of the problem.

Dogs can and are chemically imbalance just like some humans are so they need help.

Some go on it short term so the stress level is down and learning goes up. Some have to be on it for life and some can use while training bio calm or rescue remedy to help take the edge off.

Some do not need drugs at all.
But for those that do , thank goodness there is.

If You have a look at Temple Grandins work on animals and autistic humans it very interesting how the brain is very similar. Like the same simalir between a dogs and a autistic person.

JL

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I feel like we are splitting hairs here. Of course the CONCEPT of drugs isn't new, that doesn't mean anti-depressants and studies on their success in dogs isn't new. I'm befuddled here.

And of course some things can't be scientifically tested, but that area shrinks year by year.

I guess I just disagree with you on Cesar know what dogs "really need". To me, he says they are fulfilled by not behaving in ways that bother their owners. Just for the record, I don't think VS is a ground breaking trainer either - however, she has obviously stayed current on modern techniques. Again, I think if Cesar were truly innovative, scientists would be motivated to study what he was doing, because scientists want to understand things, even if they do not appear to analyzable with current methods. Animal researchers love watching horse whisperers and all kinds of people who have special bonds with animals.

How do you know they aren 't studying it? But it is rather difficult to test because each dog is an individual and depending on how they were raised and what their issues are they require different things. no two dogs problems are exactly the same. So you are not comparing apples to apples.

But the real issue here is whether or not he abuses dogs. that is what the original accusations were.

Whether or not his methods are new or out dated or old methods revised is not the issue. My guess is that his methods were used a few hundred years ago when people knew their dogs and dogs had a purpose and were not beaten and abused and were not penned up in apartments alone for 12 hours a day, and their owners were not on Prozac and were not taken from their mothers at 6 weeks old and sold at flea markets to idiots that have no bsiness owning a pet rat let alone a dog.

but none of that is the issue. Yorkiemother accused him of abusing dogs and claimed to have top secret insider information on the matter from people who had signed silence contracts and therefore cannot report to the authorities that they saw Cesar abuse dogs.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by YorkieMother

You read this yet in full.http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

Resource guarding is not dominace it is keeping an item that one has for ones self. Even a puppy with a bone and grr at another older dog and say it is mine.
Just like if my sister walks up and yet agains trys to snag my ice cap I am going to grr at her.
Also dogs in the wild do not pack and well somes pack is not a normal setting for a dog. Just like some humans are happy alone so are some dogs.

JL

Apparently you missed the sries on the Wolfman, where the mqan lived with a PACK yup I said PACK of wolves. he lived with them slept with them hunted with them and ate with them and HE was the PACK leader. As LEADER he could come and go, only the leader can do that. Other members must stay with the pack.

When i remove one of my dogs from the PACK, for a trip to the vet etc. and then I return it, they all get on it as if to say, where have you been.

Years ago, I had a very smart little dog that would nip at me when ever I was gone and came back. Cesar and his theory were not around at that time, so I did not realize that this little dog was the leader, and I was not. This little dog also tried to be the leader of a litter of kittens and of a new born colt.

Oh I thought I was the leader cause I would tell her to sit, and she would sit and i would giver her a treat, I would tell her to lie down and she would obey and i would give her a treat. She obeyed all the commands and did all the tricks, but she did them for the treats.

Now I know that I am the leader of my PACK because Cesar taught me how to be, and my PACK responds just as he predicts that they should. I tell them to wait at the door and they sit in a row and wait until I say OK, and they get no treats, they just get me.

That is proof enough to me that his theory works.