My 4lb yorkie is pregnant by my 10lb yorkie! First timer.. Help!

[gemy]

I think/believe any-one can question a specialist --- otherwise why would any one get a second opinion from another specialist????

The OP says they consulted, so I will take them at their word. In my dealings with various vets over the years, (as I have posted elsewhere), I have been very surprised at what vets "think" is okay to breed!! In some cases I have had to justify to a vet my rationale for NOT breeding a female or a male for that matter. Most vets have very little direct knowledge of the breed specific pre-breeding tests recommended to be done. Certainly general vets have for the most part limited experience in whelping, pregnancy care, gestational issues, puppy rearing et al.

I can't help but find this concerning, and in my mind, goes a long way to understanding how any Tom/Dick or Harry thinks it is okay to breed willy-nilly.

To the OP, I do wish you the very best with the whelp, and hope for a complication free whelp and rearing of these pups. I also hope you are financially, emotionally, and time wise, prepared to deal with any and all snafu's that may occur.

[lynzy420]

I contacted the "specialist" because I was intrigued. Contained within and without edit (though things did move when pasted) are the emails that I sent/received. This information is very interesting and I was amazed how I have heard many of the same things here from our respected members. Dr. Lopate was kind enough to take her time to respond to "us" here, and I am very grateful! Thank You!

From: lynzy420
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 1:58 PM
To: lopatec1@gmail.com
Subject: Breeding

Hello,
My name is Lynzy and I belong to an Online community called Yorkietalk.com. It is a large community/forum made up of people from every single walk of life there is, from all over the world.

The "regulars" within this community consist of people who genuinely care
about pups and we routinely review many professionals, breeders, vets,
etc....the importance of this is twofold, it helps people who don't know
things to be led in the right direction, it also helps to educate many
people. If you google anything Yorkie you will see that often times it will
lead you right to the Yorkietalk.com community.

Recently, there has been a thread which I will attach that involves a very
small (we don't use the marketing term teacup) Yorkie having become
pregnant.

According to the Original Poster he/she consulted with you and now links to your bio have been posted. I am not asking you to discuss this particular pup (that I'm not sure even came to you for certain) but wonder if you could shed some light on the information within. Please read through the thread and weed through the important posts regarding this information and let me know your thoughts. Could you, with the information given tell us if the information provided is accurate? Why would proceeding with a delivery/csection be safer than an emergency spay? Under what circumstances is this true?

As someone who advocates for pups and regularly advises people to seek a specialist I want to be certain the information within this thread is
accurate or explained so that other people who read it are not misguided and that we can help others in the future.

I thank you in advance for any enlightening information you can provide!
Thank You,
Lynzy Greene

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/breeder-talk/269397-my-4lb-yorkie-pregnant-
my-10lb-yorkie-first-timer-help.html

[lynzy420]

RE: Breeding
Tuesday, November 5, 2013 10:54 PM
From: "Cheryl Lopate" <lopatec1@gmail.com>To: Lynzy420
Thanks for your interest regarding the situation where a small bitch is bred
by a larger male. I will not speak to the specifics of this case, but will
rather speak in generalities.

Normally when an accidental breeding happens, we recommend getting the bitch
in immediately for a vaginal cytology, speculum exam and progesterone to
determine where she is in regards to her fertile period. From there we can
determine when is the earliest we can have her in for a pregnancy ultrasound
to determine a) if she is pregnant; b) approximately how many embryos she
has; and c) to determine gestational age so we have a due date. U/S is quite
sensitive and allows us to determine all these things now with fairly good
accuracy.

If we don't get the call about the breeding right away, then as soon as we
feel we can get them in for the u/s, we recommend that. Gestational aging is
most accurate around mid- pregnancy but we can do it at any time during
pregnancy, right up till term, and we actually have gestational aging
formulas for Yorkies, so we can be pretty accurate with their due dates. The
further along in pregnancy and the larger the litter the harder to get
accurate counts, but we can make estimates in terms of fetal numbers.

During this pregnancy exam, we have a discussion with the owner in regards
to how the pregnancy will be handled. We can 1) allow it to go to term with
a free whelp; 2) allow it to go to term and plan an elective C-section; 3)
allow it to go to term and then do a radiograph close to the start of the
whelping window to assess fetal size in comparison to maternal size to
determine if free whelping is possible or not; 4) terminate the pregnancy by
ovariohysterectomy; 5) terminate the pregnancy medically (prostaglandins,
progesterone receptor antagonists or steroids can all be used successfully
and the type of pregnancy termination would be determined after discussions
with the owner and examination of the patient). Usually we only terminate
medically if the bitch is a broodbitch, because it is typically more
expensive to terminate medically than to perform a pregnant spay.

While there are risks with any surgery, a C-section is typically a less
risky surgery than a pregnant ovariohysterectomy for a number of reasons.
With a pregnant spay there are much higher risks of: 1) bleeding
post-operatively; 2) having the bitch throw a clot after surgery (pregnancy
is a thromboembolic state - which means that they are more likely to have
abnormal clotting issues, and with a spay you have cut and tied off
(ligated) many, many vessels, all of which can release a clot and have it go
into the circulation where it may go to the brain or lungs, killing the
patient); 3) having significant blood loss (the blood volume of the bitch is
shared with the pregnant uterus so when you spay a pregnant bitch you
removed this shared blood volume making the bitch immediately anemic), which
can cause a significant drop in blood pressure and make the bitch a much
higher anesthetic risk for the remainder of the surgery.

C-sections are a safer anesthetic procedure than a pregnant
ovariohysterectomy in the hands of a veterinarian who is experienced with
the physiologic changes that occur during pregnancy. So as long as the bitch
is managed well nutritionally so that she is not in poor body condition at
term, C-section is definitely safer than a pregnant spay (or even worse a
C-section spay- which has all the same risks as above plus additional
surgical time in a patient that has become a poor anesthetic candidate by
the acute removal of 1/3 of her blood volume).

In a case such as this, where the male is significantly larger than the
bitch, and the bitch is quite small to begin with, free whelping is most
likely going to be out of the question. So if the owner prefers not to do a
pregnant spay, C-section is the safest way to try to deliver pups. A x-ray
will confirm or refute the need for a C-section, if done close to term and
would absolutely be recommended in a situation like this if the owner was
contemplating free whelping. We would not recommend just trying to free
whelp and then seeking medical attention if she failed to progress, as she
could get into serious trouble quickly and depending on how far away from
emergency veterinary care the clients were and how quickly they could get
into surgery, the risk to the bitch could become significant. That said, the
bitch does contribute half the genetics to the pups and so fetal size may
not necessarily be too big, especially if litter size were high enough to
cause the fetus' growth to be subdued to space concerns in the uterus.

Hopefully that helps with your understanding about the risks of free
whelping, C-section, and pregnant spay as well as how we recommend dealing
with accidental breedings. Please let me know if you have any further
questions in this regard.

RE: BreedingWednesday, November 6, 2013 12:02 AM
Mark as Unread Flag this messageFrom: "Cheryl Lopate" <lopatec1@gmail.com>To: lynzy420 I just realized there was more than 1 page of comments.... so one other
comment that was made which is not really accurate is that small bitches are
no more likely than a large bitch to rupture her uterus. A bitch with an
obstructive dystocia has a risk of uterine rupture regardless of size. The
uterus has an amazing capacity to stretch such that the size of the fetuses
may preclude vaginal delivery but uterine rupture will not typically occur
unless the bitch has an obstruction during delivery or she is given too high
a dose of oxytocin against an obstruction.

I'd also comment that an early pregnancy spay is less risky than a last
third of pregnancy spay, although all pregnancy spays have a significantly
higher risk than a normal, non-pregnant spay. While shelters and general
practitioners may be willing to risk a bitch just to get her spayed as
quickly as possible, it my job as a specialist to consider all the risks and
benefits of all options and to present these to the client to help them make
an educated decision hopefully with the best interest of the bitch in mind
without all the emotion of the situation thrown into the mix.

I do understand that all of you on this list feel that bitches bred
accidentally need to be spayed and that breeding should not be undertaken
without complete health testing, pedigree analysis, assessment of
conformation and temperament and I completely agree with this. I spend a
considerable amount of time discussing these very things with my clients
every single day.

Ultimately though, what needs to be considered is when is the safest time
for a late pregnant bitch to be spayed? Spaying in late pregnancy has many
more risks (previously discussed in my last email) than waiting until she
has weaned the puppies. A managed pregnancy and an elective C-section puts
the late pregnant bitch at less risk, than all other options in this case
(besides medical termination of pregnancy - which also has its own risks).
Recommendations made to owners need to be made on a case by case basis and
broad generalizations need to be avoided.

Cheryl

Cheryl Lopate, MS, DVM
Diplomate, American College of Theriogenologists
(Board Certified in Reproduction)
lopatec1@gmail.com

Wilsonville Veterinary Clinic (small animal facility)
9275 SW Barber St
Wilsonville, OR 97070
503-682-3737
503-682-3540 (fax)
Wilsonville Veterinary Clinic - Reproductive Revolutions

Reproductive Revolutions (equine facility)
18858 Case Rd NE
Aurora, OR 97002
503-982-5701
503-982-5718 (fax)
Wilsonville Veterinary Clinic - Reproductive Revolutions

[ladyjane]

Thanks Lynzy for writing to this vet and thank you Dr. Lopate for all of this information! This will be a great reference thread for people seeking information in the future.

[Verbena]

Wow. Thank you Lynzy for sending her the email. Her responses was very informative.

[Wylie's Mom]

What great responses and information provided by this vet, wow! And, how generous of her to take the time to respond so thoroughly to us. Many thanks to Dr. Cheryl Lopate!

[gemy]

Yes very informative and I thank Dr Lopate for her time and the thoroughness of her reply.

How-ever there are other considerations that will need to be weighed by the owner. How one weighs these considerations will be a matter of opinion/belief and circumstance.

First of course is very early intervention, you have witnessed a tie, and then what? There are medical answers available to terminate immediately. Without a huge risk to the female, as far as I am aware. Here I am talking about 24hrs-1 week after the or even suspected tie. Surely immediate vet attention is what we would recommend.

But there are very real responsibilities and concerns with whelping either by C section or naturally with a litter of puppies in the hands of a novice, with no experienced support available to them. These are not easy decisions, they weigh the life of your bitch, with the future life/health of the puppies. They weigh your ability to knowledgeably rear healthy puppies, to socialize those puppies, your financial responsibility for these puppies, and the ultimate good health of the puppies involved. THey weigh your ability to secure and find good homes for the pups, and your ability to be up front with future purchasers about the lineage and un-known issues a would be purchaser might face in adopting/buying one of these pups.

Your vet is giving you advice on the best health decision for your dog, and not necessarily considering all future factors for the pups involved, and or what you will need to do after whelping.

[normarae63]

Thanks Lynzy & thank you also to this vet who took time from her schedule to write a very informative response.

As a complete non breeder, it may take ne a few reads of her responses to "get" everything she said but I totally agree that it's great information to have.

[Yorkiemom1]

I am reading this, rather bleary eyed, after spending all night with one of my little ladies that was whelping. After an hour of active pushing, I helped deliver this first baby.....it was a situation where there was no turning back....the baby was presenting, was having a very tight squeeze getting through the pelvic ring due to position of pups legs and head (something you can not ever know ahead of time)....suffice it to say, after a VERY difficult pulling, turning, rotating, twisting, and lots and lots of lubricant, 40 minutes later I managed to pull this baby out. This is a dam who routinely free whelps....she weighs 6 lbs. The sire weighs 5 lbs and routinely throws babies that usually are in the 2.5 - 3oz range at birth, maturing to 4.5 - 5.5 lbs. These dogs come from very well known, well monitored lines behind them, that I personally have a working knowledge of, 17 generations back....my mentor knows these dogs as far as 30 generations back....they are consistant and deliberate in what they throw. I have been doing this for many years, and thank God, I had the knowledge to get this done and save this baby's life. Then 3 hours later, we still had another puppy to deliver....and momma was no longer even actively pushing. I manually palpated her vaginal vault/birth canal, and rather than feeling a little round head or butt or even a leg, I hit a "wall".....that second baby was now sideways and would not be delivered....I had my vet on call, I called her, and we now had an emergent situation....GREEN DISCHARGE being expelled from momma....placenta is separating from baby.....EMERGENCY!!! I got to the vet office within 10 minutes, Buttons was in surgery within 7 minutes, and praise the Lord, we delivered a healthy, loudly protesting little boy! This entire whelping event, from start to finish, with careful monitoring of momma, until our trip to the vet, was from 10am on Tuesday morning, until 10:30am Wednesday morning, at the tune of final cost of over $2000.00........including my breeders discount.
I will continue to pray for this OP's litter of mixed breed babies from an undersized Yorkie female from unknown pedigree, and a much larger mixed breed male, also of unknown pedigree....born to a novice that has never attended a whelping, perhaps never even seen a puppy born.....this is all in God's hands because He is the only one overseeing this with the knowledge and where with all to pull it off successfully, without loss of anyone's life.

[lynzy420]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

I am reading this, rather bleary eyed, after spending all night with one of my little ladies that was whelping. After an hour of active pushing, I helped deliver this first baby.....it was a situation where there was no turning back....the baby was presenting, was having a very tight squeeze getting through the pelvic ring due to position of pups legs and head (something you can not ever know ahead of time)....suffice it to say, after a VERY difficult pulling, turning, rotating, twisting, and lots and lots of lubricant, 40 minutes later I managed to pull this baby out. This is a dam who routinely free whelps....she weighs 6 lbs. The sire weighs 5 lbs and routinely throws babies that usually are in the 2.5 - 3oz range at birth, maturing to 4.5 - 5.5 lbs. These dogs come from very well known, well monitored lines behind them, that I personally have a working knowledge of, 17 generations back....my mentor knows these dogs as far as 30 generations back....they are consistant and deliberate in what they throw. I have been doing this for many years, and thank God, I had the knowledge to get this done and save this baby's life. Then 3 hours later, we still had another puppy to deliver....and momma was no longer even actively pushing. I manually palpated her vaginal vault/birth canal, and rather than feeling a little round head or butt or even a leg, I hit a "wall".....that second baby was now sideways and would not be delivered....I had my vet on call, I called her, and we now had an emergent situation....GREEN DISCHARGE being expelled from momma....placenta is separating from baby.....EMERGENCY!!! I got to the vet office within 10 minutes, Buttons was in surgery within 7 minutes, and praise the Lord, we delivered a healthy, loudly protesting little boy! This entire whelping event, from start to finish, with careful monitoring of momma, until our trip to the vet, was from 10am on Tuesday morning, until 10:30am Wednesday morning, at the tune of final cost of over $2000.00........including my breeders discount.
I will continue to pray for this OP's litter of mixed breed babies from an undersized Yorkie female from unknown pedigree, and a much larger mixed breed male, also of unknown pedigree....born to a novice that has never attended a whelping, perhaps never even seen a puppy born.....this is all in God's hands because He is the only one overseeing this with the knowledge and where with all to pull it off successfully, without loss of anyone's life.

You literally have me shaking, heart pounding...genuine tears. Thank God you were there and have the 30+ years experience. Go to show that even with that knowledge anything can happen.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

I am reading this, rather bleary eyed, after spending all night with one of my little ladies that was whelping. After an hour of active pushing, I helped deliver this first baby.....it was a situation where there was no turning back....the baby was presenting, was having a very tight squeeze getting through the pelvic ring due to position of pups legs and head (something you can not ever know ahead of time)....suffice it to say, after a VERY difficult pulling, turning, rotating, twisting, and lots and lots of lubricant, 40 minutes later I managed to pull this baby out. This is a dam who routinely free whelps....she weighs 6 lbs. The sire weighs 5 lbs and routinely throws babies that usually are in the 2.5 - 3oz range at birth, maturing to 4.5 - 5.5 lbs. These dogs come from very well known, well monitored lines behind them, that I personally have a working knowledge of, 17 generations back....my mentor knows these dogs as far as 30 generations back....they are consistant and deliberate in what they throw. I have been doing this for many years, and thank God, I had the knowledge to get this done and save this baby's life. Then 3 hours later, we still had another puppy to deliver....and momma was no longer even actively pushing. I manually palpated her vaginal vault/birth canal, and rather than feeling a little round head or butt or even a leg, I hit a "wall".....that second baby was now sideways and would not be delivered....I had my vet on call, I called her, and we now had an emergent situation....GREEN DISCHARGE being expelled from momma....placenta is separating from baby.....EMERGENCY!!! I got to the vet office within 10 minutes, Buttons was in surgery within 7 minutes, and praise the Lord, we delivered a healthy, loudly protesting little boy! This entire whelping event, from start to finish, with careful monitoring of momma, until our trip to the vet, was from 10am on Tuesday morning, until 10:30am Wednesday morning, at the tune of final cost of over $2000.00........including my breeders discount.
I will continue to pray for this OP's litter of mixed breed babies from an undersized Yorkie female from unknown pedigree, and a much larger mixed breed male, also of unknown pedigree....born to a novice that has never attended a whelping, perhaps never even seen a puppy born.....this is all in God's hands because He is the only one overseeing this with the knowledge and where with all to pull it off successfully, without loss of anyone's life.

This is was scares me so much with these "accidents" breedings.

[bchgirl]

Great you got answers and I honestly wish people wouldn't automatically say abort the litter as most repro vets don't advise it.
And no breeding is not for the faint of heart

[bryce87i]

*****

MOD HERE WITH AN UPDATE!!
MOD HERE WITH AN UPDATE!!

So my little girl has safely finished carrying 3 pups!
2 girls and 1 boy!
All 3 pups are as healthy as can be, and so is momma.

First I'd like to say thank you all for the abundance of replies!
However, I'm astonished at how unfriendly this thread became.
Not only towards me and my situation, but also to eachother!
You are all extremely biased and opinionated, which is fine, because
as knowledgeable breeders you should be. But again, I think this
got a little bit out of hand.

I understand the situation was not optimal, and that's why I came here.
It was an accidental pregnancy, and was not realized until nearly 6 weeks!
Fearful, I came here to seek information and help getting through it all.
I agree that it was a dangerous situation, but instead of helping me get
through the pregnancy giving support, you all did nothing except post
hateful messages. I understand why to an extent, but again, all I wanted
was help and support getting through the pregnancy. After your initial
replies, it was suggested that I seek out professional advice from a vet,
which I went on to receive from my vet as well as a pregnancy specialist.
I was told that since she was so far along, an emergency spay would be
just as dangerous as carrying out the pregnancy. All of you disagreed and
stuck to your guns. But following the 2 vets advice, I decided to proceed
with caution. Oh and by the way, the specialist also authored a book on
animal pregnancy, so I'm pretty sure I can trust her advice confidently!

In the end, we receieved a small window for the possible duedate, so
a couple days prior to the window we went in to get an ultrasound and
test her progesterone levels, etc.. For the following 4 days we went in
daily to get her progesterone levels tested and take more scans.
In the end, she did need to get a Csection because the pups heads were
a bit too wide for her to deliver (which was highly expected), and as soon
as her progesterone levels had dropped to the correct level, she went into
surgery on day 4 (today).. Everything went great and as planned; the puppies
are as healthy as can be, and momma is doing great as well. From here
forward I will be giving momma oxytocin sprays nasally, taking close care
of the pups environment etc, and eventually weening.

I would say thank you for all the help and support, but honestly I didn't
receive any. All I got was yelled at. And although I understand why, I still
would've appreciated a bit more on the level of help and support, since
I had already understood the dangers of the situation, and chose to follow
the professional advice I got. Bottom line is, the educated decision was
made to proceed with the pregnancy because of how far along she was,
so it would've been nice if you all would've just accepted that and helped
me get through it.

Anyway, I do appreciate the info, opinions, and advice I was given, and am
happy to report a successful pregnancy.. I will try to get some pictures
of the 3 pups (as well as momma and poppa) posted up soon.

If there is anybody who is willing to provide help and support during the
next few weeks, I would greatly appreciate it, and will post any questions
or concerns I may have here on this thread.
Thanks again!

*****

[dottiesyrky]

Thank you for the wonderful update on momma and her three puppies. You and she must be very proud and happy. It has been a rough and scary time for you, but you soldiered on and came out smiling. You got the best advice and treatment for your girl and you were all rewarded. Please congratulate your vets too for helping you bring this pregnancy to a successful conclusion. Decisions like this are difficult but one has to trust the expertise of your advisors, and you did.
It will be hard work for you helping momma bring up her pups but the joy of seeing them grow and mature will be worth every minute.
I am sure all here look forward to pics and progress reports, and we pray mom and babes will continue to thrive. Momma deserves lots of lovely treats, she is a strong and brave little girl.
Wishing you peace and love. We are all praying for you. Thanks again for the great news!! All's well that ends well. :-))

[ladyjane]

Whatever....you had an intact female and an intact male.......so there was NO accident.