Yorkshire Terrier Club of Ethical Hobby Breeders

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Micah my love

JMO but this is one of the smartest statments made on this thread

Thank you! I am just as passionate about health as I am with the standard yorkie breed! Health and the breed standard should go hand in hand! As long as the standard is written and with health screening along with it everyone should abide by the standard as written. Until that is changed one should be doing it right

Donna

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Do you think show breeders would advertise they got a parti from their Champion dogs, I am sure some are still to this day put down.

I sure hope no one would put down a dog just because of an off color. While I don't agree with having an off color in my program there shouldn't be any reason to put it down. Just place in a pet home spayed or netuered and let it be a loving pet for someone just like a yorkie with floppy ears. I don't hear of anyone putting a yorkie down for that...

Donna

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

I read that too Donna, I'll have to check through my Gazettes......

So, Mary you read that too? I know some folks in AKC maybe I can follow up on that...if that's the case...I guess no varities will be added any longer...

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

So, Mary you read that too? I know some folks in AKC maybe I can follow up on that...if that's the case...I guess no varities will be added any longer...

This is really a moot point simply because partis are recognized by AKC. Individually, no, AKC won't consider a breed for inclusion into their FSS program which is a variation of a breed already recognized.

Copied and pasted.
The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed

Direct link -
Foundation Stock Service Program

[topknot]

JeanieK - I just got through reading a lot of your posts back from 2006 when you were stating that AKC needs to get with the program and that partis will be in the show ring soon - 4 years have gone by since your posts. Don't you think you need to give up. If they have not changed in 4 years - I do not think they are going to change. I know you love your partis, but I do not think that YTCA is going to change their minds on this one.
*************************************************

I am just trying to learn all I can about this topic.

What is going on in Breeder's Review @ Crownridge and all??

Good reads:
interesting post from here back in 2006 on partis - http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/my-...s-rare-11.html

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

This is really a moot point simply because partis are recognized by AKC. Individually, no, AKC won't consider a breed for inclusion into their FSS program which is a variation of a breed already recognized.

Copied and pasted.
The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed

Direct link -
Foundation Stock Service Program

Yes, Parti's are recognized with AKC as a yorkie but what I'm saying is I think I read somewhere that AKC will not be adding varities any longer and that is including those breeds that are already recognized with AKC. And I said I have to do some research on that as I think it's going to apply to all breeds that are currently recognized as well. So, it would be up to the YTCA to make the color change and that's not going to happen.

Donna

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

It doesn't mean the YTCA has doubts, it just means they don't want it to happen and they are fighting tooth and nail against it ... Goodness, there are people from the YTCA who have joined Biewer clubs NOT because they have a Biewer, love the Biewer or EVER intend on owning one.. but for the soul purpose to be in the club to do all in their power to PROVE that the Biewer is not a Yorkie.. there are other cases where yorkie breeders "befriend" Biewer breeders so to keep an "eye" on them.. "Keep your friends close, your enemies closer" type of scenerio.

To me, this type of behavior reflects fear. You are not going to be able to legislate the Parti's out of existance. The AKC has proven the Parti is a Yorkshire Terrier.. we are on the way to showing that the Biewer is the same.. We are not going to give up on this and there are more people every day who are becoming enthralled with these dogs.. Instead of bickering on forums and only REACTING.. by changing standards in haste and making unprofessional statements on your websites, don't you think it would be far more productive for the YTCA to sit down and chat.

In a business or in life..if you see something coming your way that you don't particularly like, you can't just slam the door.. cover your ears, shut your eyes and pretend it isn't happening. You have to figure out a solution. This solution may not be exactly as you would like it to be, sometimes change isn't in the beginning, but many times in the end you find that change was actually for the better.

Now, at the beginning of this process there is still time to put rules and guidelines in place.. there is a chance to map out how this can proceed logically, to the benifit of all but most importantly.. to the breed we ALL love. We don't want to see the standard changed for that stunning blue and tan/gold dog .. this is the dog most of us started with.. that we still love.. but we KNOW there is a variation of that dog.. we know what they are and how special they are and we are just as determined to see them get their rightful place in the show ring as you are to keep them out.

This can be done right, or this can just be done.. we are at a point were we can still choose. It would be a shame to miss this opportunity.


Diana

A couple of comments on part of your post.

"The AKC has proven the Parti is a Yorkshire Terrier.. we are on the way to showing that the Biewer is the same.."

I'm guessing by this statement that you are a Biewer owner that believes Biewers are Yorkies, as some do and some don't. One thing I've found odd about Biewers is that, when asked about the differences in Biewers and Yorkies, many have replied about a difference in temperament and that Biewers are more laid back. To me this is very telling as temperament is one thing that is absolutely inherited and the Terrier attitude is a hallmark of a Yorkie. This difference in temperament noted by Biewer owners begs the question if they are Yorkies or not.

"but we KNOW there is a variation of that dog.. we know what they are and how special they are and we are just as determined to see them get their rightful place in the show ring as you are to keep them out."

As pointed out before, many variations of the breed have no place in the show ring. The goal of having pure bred dogs is to have them breed pure. Variations from the standard, no matter how 'cute', have no place in the conformation ring.

This can be done right, or this can just be done..

Now this just sounds like a threat. I get all sorts of very funny pictures in my head just thinking how this would be done. A coup d'etat on the YTCA, perhaps?

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

A couple of comments on part of your post.

"The AKC has proven the Parti is a Yorkshire Terrier.. we are on the way to showing that the Biewer is the same.."

I'm guessing by this statement that you are a Biewer owner that believes Biewers are Yorkies, as some do and some don't. One thing I've found odd about Biewers is that, when asked about the differences in Biewers and Yorkies, many have replied about a difference in temperament and that Biewers are more laid back. To me this is very telling as temperament is one thing that is absolutely inherited and the Terrier attitude is a hallmark of a Yorkie. This difference in temperament noted by Biewer owners begs the question if they are Yorkies or not.

"but we KNOW there is a variation of that dog.. we know what they are and how special they are and we are just as determined to see them get their rightful place in the show ring as you are to keep them out."

As pointed out before, many variations of the breed have no place in the show ring. The goal of having pure bred dogs is to have them breed pure. Variations from the standard, no matter how 'cute', have no place in the conformation ring.

This can be done right, or this can just be done..

Now this just sounds like a threat. I get all sorts of very funny pictures in my head just thinking how this would be done. A coup d'etat on the YTCA, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

A couple of comments on part of your post.

"The AKC has proven the Parti is a Yorkshire Terrier.. we are on the way to showing that the Biewer is the same.."

I'm guessing by this statement that you are a Biewer owner that believes Biewers are Yorkies, as some do and some don't. One thing I've found odd about Biewers is that, when asked about the differences in Biewers and Yorkies, many have replied about a difference in temperament and that Biewers are more laid back. To me this is very telling as temperament is one thing that is absolutely inherited and the Terrier attitude is a hallmark of a Yorkie. This difference in temperament noted by Biewer owners begs the question if they are Yorkies or not.

"but we KNOW there is a variation of that dog.. we know what they are and how special they are and we are just as determined to see them get their rightful place in the show ring as you are to keep them out."

As pointed out before, many variations of the breed have no place in the show ring. The goal of having pure bred dogs is to have them breed pure. Variations from the standard, no matter how 'cute', have no place in the conformation ring.

This can be done right, or this can just be done..

Now this just sounds like a threat. I get all sorts of very funny pictures in my head just thinking how this would be done. A coup d'etat on the YTCA, perhaps?

You make some valid points.. all I can say is if you were spend a few minutes at my house.. you would be able to tell in an instant that I have a housefull of Yorkies!! While they are loving, gentle souls, I'd hate to be the chipmunk under the fence they chased down last night and I certainly don't need a door bell. The Biewer is however a LINE of dogs.. I would think a specific line if bred together constantly may tend to display a specific temperment? Just as you would breed a line of aggressive dogs to create aggression, you may tend to breed a specific line of yorkies to present a specific temperment. The dogs from Germany were after all bred very closely in a very small country. I don't think simply adding a variation in color can change a dogs personality, however I'm not sure of that either.. I know years ago when I bred cockers, I was told the Parti Cocker had a different personality but I can't prove that one way or the other.

Now.. the Coup d'etat statement regarding the YTCA.. that's a funny one, even made me giggle! But I can see how you took it the wrong way.. What I'm saying is.. we will continue to breed the Parti Yorkies with or without the YTCA.. but it would be so much better to be done WITH them. Then, there could be input, discussions, a meeting of the minds.. an understanding of each others points of view.. compromises and guidelines.. That, in my mind.. would be the right way..

The other way is just an group of people trying to achieve some goals.. eventually, we will become united and work together but what damage could be done before that time??? For example, most of us are extremely cautious.. all dogs that don't stay in my program and leave my home are neutered prior to leaving and all females are sold strictly on a spay contract unless they go to people I know personally and who work under the same guidelines I have set up for myself. The registry I use keeps records using a different code for pups that are carriers so we can track lines..(these are Biewers..obviously the AKC does it differently) I do not breed to put color into the yorkie population.. the carriers stay in my working program (or other trusted programs) or they do not reproduce.

These are the types of things that can be done to help assure the mainstream community of our intentions.. I'm sure there are other things too that could come out of open discussions between us.. where as slamming the door in our face is not as productive.

Diana

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Do you think show breeders would advertise they got a parti from their Champion dogs, I am sure some are still to this day put down.

Most of these breeders are in it for the betterment of the breed. All of us would have heard something if partis were being produced and would stop using these lines. That hasnt happened.
Why is it that when it comes to proof, all you parti breeders say that all us exhibitor breeders kill off all the partis we supposedly produce? I dont believe that we are that cruel. All of the exhibitor/breeders LOVE dogs.

[Elle]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

Most of these breeders are in it for the betterment of the breed. All of us would have heard something if partis were being produced and would stop using these lines. That hasnt happened.
Why is it that when it comes to proof, all you parti breeders say that all us exhibitor breeders kill off all the partis we supposedly produce? I dont believe that we are that cruel. All of the exhibitor/breeders LOVE dogs.

That's a good question. Should we take it personal or write it off to desperation? You say as matter of fact.

I realize you are breeding to sell dogs which you must justify the value for charging a high price for them being whatever you are calling them today. I don't support culling, but how much worst is that than breeding all these dogs when the shelters are full now? How many dogs are being put to sleep as these new puppies are spared? I'm not saying I support culling, I don't. But eye for an eye, how is it different? Breeding that liter is worst.

Exhibitors do not have these things showing up in our liters. This is a story you are telling. It's your advertising campaign. We do not believe it. I've been around way too long, seen many of great lines, never anything like the dogs you mention here. If anything like that showed up in the whelping box, it would be talked about. Another interesting thing, how come it's new people that how this "magic gene"? Why don't all of the people that have been around forever have this white dog calling it a yorkie? Why is it only in so hard to understand but two people could breed it or whatever your story is today?

Why do you breed a dog that isn't allowed to participate in AKC confirmation? Doesn't that say it enough?

[Elle]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I find this statement fascinating. Ch Durrers Ace High and Ch.Finstal Royal Icing have offspring all over the world. Alot of them are line bred. Should have doubled up on a few of those parti genes. Where are all the parti dogs in Spain, France, England, Italy, Austrailia, Russia, Scotland, Ireland, Mexico, etc. There would be some mention of them by now. It seems to have only showed up in one parti breeders kennel that somehow got ahold of these lines.
Just wondering....

Some people just don't care about the breed, much less the history. Makes you appreciate the ones that do. I know about Finstal and grape kool aid.

[yorkiegirl2]

Originally Posted by Elle

That's a good question. Should we take it personal or write it off to desperation? You say as matter of fact.

I realize you are breeding to sell dogs which you must justify the value for charging a high price for them being whatever you are calling them today. I don't support culling, but how much worst is that than breeding all these dogs when the shelters are full now? How many dogs are being put to sleep as these new puppies are spared? I'm not saying I support culling, I don't. But eye for an eye, how is it different? Breeding that liter is worst.

Exhibitors do not have these things showing up in our liters. This is a story you are telling. It's your advertising campaign. We do not believe it. I've been around way too long, seen many of great lines, never anything like the dogs you mention here. If anything like that showed up in the whelping box, it would be talked about. Another interesting thing, how come it's new people that how this "magic gene"? Why don't all of the people that have been around forever have this white dog calling it a yorkie? Why is it only in so hard to understand but two people could breed it or whatever your story is today?

Why do you breed a dog that isn't allowed to participate in AKC confirmation? Doesn't that say it enough?

Just as show breeders are tight lipped about what defect run in their lines,
I do not believe breeders would be forth coming about disclosing a parti that pops up in the whelping box.
Much better to dispose of the problem then allow it to be known, as this would put the breeders lines and breeding practice under suspicion .
Not every good for one reputation in the show world now is it ?

Like I say in an early post, a Ch dog from well known show lines sired a parti pup and the breeder of that show dog told the owner of the dam to put the pup down.
So, Yes it happens and I believe it happens more then most knows about.

Now, how many offspring do you think this Ch show dog has produced who also carries the parti gene??

[Woogie Man]

Diana, I appreciate your taking the time to answer my post. Also good to see we can keep a sense of humor despite all this .

There was one part of my post you didn't address. Your original post is in bold and my reply is below that. I would point out that the standard is very strict and there are many beautiful Yorkies that are great examples of the breed except for being too light in color. Most of us accept that these dogs aren't 'show quality' and keep them out of the ring. I have just now gotten a girl that I think has some potential, and it took 3 litters from very good parents to get her. The other pups are wonderful, just running too light for what I think would be competitive. The point being, we all have to abide by the standard as it is for the sake of the breed.

..your earlier post

"but we KNOW there is a variation of that dog.. we know what they are and how special they are and we are just as determined to see them get their rightful place in the show ring as you are to keep them out."

...and my earlier reply

"As pointed out before, many variations of the breed have no place in the show ring. The goal of having pure bred dogs is to have them breed pure. Variations from the standard, no matter how 'cute', have no place in the conformation ring."

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by yorkiegirl2

Just as show breeders are tight lipped about what defect run in their lines,
I do not believe breeders would be forth coming about disclosing a parti that pops up in the whelping box.
Much better to dispose of the problem then allow it to be known, as this would put the breeders lines and breeding practice under suspicion .
Not every good for one reputation in the show world now is it ?

Like I say in an early post, a Ch dog from well known show lines sired a parti pup and the breeder of that show dog told the owner of the dam to put the pup down.
So, Yes it happens and I believe it happens more then most knows about.

Now, how many offspring do you think this Ch show dog has produced who also carries the parti gene??

The sire isn't solely accountable...the dam he was bred with also had to be a carrier.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Diana, I appreciate your taking the time to answer my post. Also good to see we can keep a sense of humor despite all this .

There was one part of my post you didn't address. Your original post is in bold and my reply is below that. I would point out that the standard is very strict and there are many beautiful Yorkies that are great examples of the breed except for being too light in color. Most of us accept that these dogs aren't 'show quality' and keep them out of the ring. I have just now gotten a girl that I think has some potential, and it took 3 litters from very good parents to get her. The other pups are wonderful, just running too light for what I think would be competitive. The point being, we all have to abide by the standard as it is for the sake of the breed.

..your earlier post

"but we KNOW there is a variation of that dog.. we know what they are and how special they are and we are just as determined to see them get their rightful place in the show ring as you are to keep them out."

...and my earlier reply

"As pointed out before, many variations of the breed have no place in the show ring. The goal of having pure bred dogs is to have them breed pure. Variations from the standard, no matter how 'cute', have no place in the conformation ring."

yes, I agree with you.. unless we remain civil AND maintain our sense of humor.. we are doomed before we begin.

I also understand you point regarding the color standard.. the YTCA has made it very clear they want to maintain a very strict blue standard in terms of color.. this is fine.. I also believe that "blue" is the color I would strive for in our partis however we are still aways from that and many people prefer the "black" (personally, I am not one).

These are the types of discussion I believe that need to go on.. because, although I understand your point and it is valid, there is another side, that I feel is equally valid.. and that is that there is something that is naturally occuring in some yorkies, created I believe by a recessive gene and a spotting pattern.. it is unique and beautiful and fascinating and every bit a yorkie. I believe variations do have a place in the conformation ring and in this thread many examples have already been given.

In my mind it is not necessary to gain AKC acceptance for the Biewers.. certainly not right now.. the Parti's are already able to register.. so they are a step ahead.. and we are all able to show.. but I believe the day will come where somehow the tri colored yorkie will be in the AKC show ring.. not sure when or under what name.. but I believe it will happen. I personally am in no hurry as long as we can show somewhere.. but I would think the YTCA should still be interested in holding meaningful conversations with us if their goal is to protect their standard and what they feel is the possible dilution of it.. because whether or not we are in AKC .. the parti breeders and some Biewer breeders will still be breeding with AKC Yorkies. In my world it is better to be friends and build relationships with people then to be foes.


Diana