Yorkshire Terrier Club of Ethical Hobby Breeders

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by Pinehaven

I don't know if this has been mentioned anywhere in this long thread, but I just wanted to say that AKC now lists parti color under the Yorkshire Terrier markings section on their dog registration applications. I was told about this today and went online to register a young parti female .... sure enough, parti color is an option under the markings section. This means parti owners no longer have to submit photos of their parti puppies when registering.

That means that there must be quite a few Partis being registered.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I am referring to dogs generations before Nikko in the pet portion of the pedigrees. Who actually were these "breeders" These "breeders" are most likely dead by now.None of you could have known what they were breeding. Did they have multiple breeds. Maybe had an oops breeding that they registered? Like the lady that I knew, there were breeders just like her. They were a dime a dozen. This is why it is VERY important to have show lines up front in your pedigrees. At least you know who they are and how they bred.
So tell me how the Ytca can tell who the "knock offs" are from your partis??

They can't. no more than they can tell who the knock offs are on the traditional yorkies.

Parti colored yorkies have been showing up in the yorkie breed since the beginning. This is nothing new.

It does not pay for us to even have a dicussion about whether the YTCA will or will not Accept the parti in the future.

None of us has a crystal ball. So it is a waste of time to argue about it.

But I can tell you that we aren't going away. We are not asking for the standard to be changed, just to have another color categoy added.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

But can you see why this is just one of the reasons the YtcA has doubts? Like I said, this lady breeder was a dime a dozen back then. No DNa, no way to prove lineage. She got that parti gene introduced into Yorkie lines pretty easily. Fast forward 25 years and of course Akc's Dna will tell you the parents are Akc registered. But are they REALLY pure yorkies??

I understand what your saying.. but really.. if she was doing this with her Partis.. what was she doing with her Yorkies? Were they pure yorkies either?? Most likely all of her lines were compromised but I'm not sure any of us can be responsible for what really bad breeders did in the 60's and 70's.. I'm certainly not going to take that on.

The AKC has a system in place, it is called a Pedigree.. we either live by the pedigrees or we die by them.. it's the same for everyone.. I can question, you can question.. but at the end of the day that is the system that was used and is still used. The Parti's were tested.. found to be yorkies.. those are the facts that we are given, that is what the pedigrees AND the DNA tell us.. I'm sorry it is not what many of you want to hear, but as far as we know.. those are the facts.

I did not lie or cheat, steal, rape or pillage.. according to the AKC, we have yorkies and it is ONLY the YTCA that says they are not.. really.. they are only a club... powerful yes.. but only a club made up of people, stuck in their ways with much to lose and little to gain if there is change.. I get that .. I understand.. but I can't help that.. change will come eventually.. duck and weave if you must or embrace it.. your choice.

Diana

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

I understand what your saying.. but really.. if she was doing this with her Partis.. what was she doing with her Yorkies? Were they pure yorkies either?? Most likely all of her lines were compromised but I'm not sure any of us can be responsible for what really bad breeders did in the 60's and 70's.. I'm certainly not going to take that on.

The AKC has a system in place, it is called a Pedigree.. we either live by the pedigrees or we die by them.. it's the same for everyone.. I can question, you can question.. but at the end of the day that is the system that was used and is still used. The Parti's were tested.. found to be yorkies.. those are the facts that we are given, that is what the pedigrees AND the DNA tell us.. I'm sorry it is not what many of you want to hear, but as far as we know.. those are the facts.

I did not lie or cheat, steal, rape or pillage.. according to the AKC, we have yorkies and it is ONLY the YTCA that says they are not.. really.. they are only a club... powerful yes.. but only a club made up of people, stuck in their ways with much to loose and little to gain if there is change.. I get that .. I understand.. but I can't help that.. change will come eventually.. duck and weave if you must or embrace it.. your choice.

Diana

I dont know what she was doing except selling pets. This was waaaaay back in the dark ages when I first got interested in the breed. I didnt know jack.
You can live and die by any pedigree but if the breeding behind them are falsifyed, they are no better than a piece of TP. DnA only tells you parentage. It can NEVER, at this time, tell you if a dog is a purebred. The dogs I am referring to are the dogs that were already dead at the time of the AKC investigation. Who were those breeders and what were they breeding? They could have been just like the lady I knew: multiple breeds and oops breedings that were registered with AkC as purebred Yorkies.
I am glad you feel so confident in your pedigrees. But I dont think you know who the breeders of your dogs were back in the 70's and 80's.

[gardenyorkies]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

I am referring to dogs generations before Nikko in the pet portion of the pedigrees. Who actually were these "breeders" These "breeders" are most likely dead by now.None of you could have known what they were breeding. Did they have multiple breeds. Maybe had an oops breeding that they registered? Like the lady that I knew, there were breeders just like her. They were a dime a dozen. This is why it is VERY important to have show lines up front in your pedigrees. At least you know who they are and how they bred.
So tell me how the Ytca can tell who the "knock offs" are from your partis??

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

They can't. no more than they can tell who the knock offs are on the traditional yorkies.

Parti colored yorkies have been showing up in the yorkie breed since the beginning. This is nothing new.

It does not pay for us to even have a dicussion about whether the YTCA will or will not Accept the parti in the future.

None of us has a crystal ball. So it is a waste of time to argue about it.

But I can tell you that we aren't going away. We are not asking for the standard to be changed, just to have another color categoy added.

But you ARE asking for the standard to be changed by adding another color category. If the standard didnt change, none of your dogs could be shown anyway without getting DQ'd.

[gardenyorkies]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

But you ARE asking for the standard to be changed by adding another color category. If the standard didnt change, none of your dogs could be shown anyway without getting DQ'd.

Ha I can't see that working out very well...

[yorkielady06]

As the argument is going on I just sit and shake my head. We agree to disagree but keep on crusading.

Can all of you that are going against the Parti tell me that every one of your dogs ancestors were DNAd way back to the 70s??? Whenever you add humans into the equation there are errors. If you look at that and push that issue then none of these dogs are "pure" in that sense. Are you insinuating that just because a person is famous for their line that makes them above reproach? Unless you are that person then you will never know. Period. You can only know what YOU will or have done. I do not care if you knew any of them, what happened behind their closed doors was not for you to see or me. If that person that was described that had the oops litter and was showing proved that for sure. She had a championed out dog and that dog may be in any of our lines.

Change quotes...
“The key to change... is to let go of fear.”
“Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending.”
ONE OF MY FAVES>>>“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by yorkielady06

As the argument is going on I just sit and shake my head. We agree to disagree but keep on crusading.

Can all of you that are going against the Parti tell me that every one of your dogs ancestors were DNAd way back to the 70s??? Whenever you add humans into the equation there are errors. If you look at that and push that issue then none of these dogs are "pure" in that sense. Are you insinuating that just because a person is famous for their line that makes them above reproach? Unless you are that person then you will never know. Period. You can only know what YOU will or have done. I do not care if you knew any of them, what happened behind their closed doors was not for you to see or me. If that person that was described that had the oops litter and was showing proved that for sure. She had a championed out dog and that dog may be in any of our lines.

Change quotes...
“The key to change... is to let go of fear.”
“Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending.”
ONE OF MY FAVES>>>“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

Thats why its important to know who you are buying from and what is behind the dogs. She(the lady I knew) had one champion, thats it. She did not breed to better the breed, only to sell puppies.That was a common mind set back then for people just wanting to make money. Champion= $$$$$$$$$.
The died in the wool Yorkie breeder/exhibitors were, for the most part, had excellent breeding records and ethics. You just had to know who to get your dogs from.
There were always those that got sour grapes attitudes and eventually quit breeding or just started breeding for money. These are the people, for the most part, that got great bloodlines into the hands of unethical breeders.

[AMD]

Okay, I'm respectfully curious...so just asking

[with all respect for everyone]

Why doesn’t/didn’t the parti get its own breed recognition instead of fighting for AKC Yorkshire Terrier and be bred in opposition to the standard? Apparently the parti and biewer are the same dogs but biewers are "obviously" mixed anyway? Isn't that just fighting for a position which is often seen as unethical, when they could have their own breed standard, their own breed ring, be shown honestly and be bred according to standard? Even if they were originally purebred bloodlines... breed type has been changed anyway!? IMO they'd have a tremendously greater chance at improving the breed. Call them American Parti Terriers...or whatever seems fit.

Many reputable breeders are also exhibitors so they are going to breed to standard. (I didn’t say reputable breeders are all show breeders; or all show breeders are reputable) If the parti works its way toward a new standard then you’re going to get more breeders who breed for the betterment since there is a standard of perfection for them. I would think it’s going to take an awfully long time to get anywhere without.

Since the YTCA has already addressed the tri-color and if the AKC is truly not going to allow any more varieties, is there anything to continue fighting for besides a new breed standard?

I understand you can’t just breed a new color and call it a new breed, but are there not several other accepted breeds that were originally bred from other accepted breeds? They are very closely related but are separate breeds NOW with separate standards. Yes it’s going to take a lot of time work and dedication, but in the end the parti will end up with what they want without fighting indefinitely. Seems to me there's plenty of dedication. But partis been fighting for 4 years and have only gotten a DQ for white. So continue fighting in the same direction???

It seems like there isn’t a need to fight an eternal battle, when there could be another way with a proper approach to get these dogs accepted and showing that makes ALL passionate breeders happy. Seems like there would be way more reputable breeders that would get into the bloodline for the betterment of the breed. I don’t think there’s much hope to better the breed until they conform to standard. I'm sure there are many very reputable breeders who actually like the parti-color but will not breed because it's in opposition to the standard.

It is not my attempt to judge or condemn anyone...I really see a possibility for the partis to have full acceptance that makes all passionate breeders happy, and a route that will open the door for incredible opportunities to improve the breed. Win/Win!?

Sorry so long

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by AMD

Okay, I'm respectfully curious...so just asking

[with all respect for everyone]

Why doesn’t/didn’t the parti get its own breed recognition instead of fighting for AKC Yorkshire Terrier and be bred in opposition to the standard? Apparently the parti and biewer are the same dogs but biewers are "obviously" mixed anyway? Isn't that just fighting for a position which is often seen as unethical, when they could have their own breed standard, their own breed ring, be shown honestly and be bred according to standard? Even if they were originally purebred bloodlines... breed type has been changed anyway!? IMO they'd have a tremendously greater chance at improving the breed. Call them American Parti Terriers...or whatever seems fit.

Many reputable breeders are also exhibitors so they are going to breed to standard. (I didn’t say reputable breeders are all show breeders; or all show breeders are reputable) If the parti works its way toward a new standard then you’re going to get more breeders who breed for the betterment since there is a standard of perfection for them. I would think it’s going to take an awfully long time to get anywhere without.

Since the YTCA has already addressed the tri-color and if the AKC is truly not going to allow any more varieties, is there anything to continue fighting for besides a new breed standard?

I understand you can’t just breed a new color and call it a new breed, but are there not several other accepted breeds that were originally bred from other accepted breeds? They are very closely related but are separate breeds NOW with separate standards. Yes it’s going to take a lot of time work and dedication, but in the end the parti will end up with what they want without fighting indefinitely. Seems to me there's plenty of dedication. But partis been fighting for 4 years and have only gotten a DQ for white. So continue fighting in the same direction???

It seems like there isn’t a need to fight an eternal battle, when there could be another way with a proper approach to get these dogs accepted and showing that makes ALL passionate breeders happy. Seems like there would be way more reputable breeders that would get into the bloodline for the betterment of the breed. I don’t think there’s much hope to better the breed until they conform to standard. I'm sure there are many very reputable breeders who actually like the parti-color but will not breed because it's in opposition to the standard.

It is not my attempt to judge or condemn anyone...I really see a possibility for the partis to have full acceptance that makes all passionate breeders happy, and a route that will open the door for incredible opportunities to improve the breed. Win/Win!?

Sorry so long

You cannot establish a new breed based on color. Since they are first and foremost, yorkies they fall under the YTCA. the German registries did not have this requirement therfore the Biewers were able to become a breed by themselves. But that is also why the AKC does not recognize the Biewer but it does recognize the parti.

Hope that answers your question

PS I believe that the AKC requires 3 breeds to be mixed to create a new breed.

[AMD]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

You cannot establish a new breed based on color. Since they are first and foremost, yorkies they fall under the YTCA. the German registries did not have this requirement therfore the Biewers were able to become a breed by themselves. But that is also why the AKC does not recognize the Biewer but it does recognize the parti.

Hope that answers your question

PS I believe that the AKC requires 3 breeds to be mixed to create a new breed.

Thanks!
So partis would've had to approach a new standard from the get go?
How is the parti any different from the other breeds that branched from another?

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

You cannot establish a new breed based on color. Since they are first and foremost, yorkies they fall under the YTCA. the German registries did not have this requirement therfore the Biewers were able to become a breed by themselves. But that is also why the AKC does not recognize the Biewer but it does recognize the parti.

Hope that answers your question

PS I believe that the AKC requires 3 breeds to be mixed to create a new breed.

Here is an example....take the Pembroke and Cardigan Welsh Corgi's....well they started out as "ONE" breed and now they are "TWO" seperate breeds with their own standard and both are consider "welsh corgi's" but show in different rings as seperate breeds. So therfore, Parti's being Yorkshire Terriers if you want to be recognized in the show ring develop a standard that AKC will accept. Yes, it make take years but if this is what you really want to do it's worth the work you so desire.

Donna

[AMD]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

Here is an example....take the Pembroke and Cardigan Welsh Corgi's....well they started out as "ONE" breed and now they are "TWO" seperate breeds with their own standard and both are consider "welsh corgi's" but show in different rings as seperate breeds. So therfore, Parti's being Yorkshire Terriers if you want to be recognized in the show ring develop a standard that AKC will accept. Yes, it make take years but if this is what you really want to do it's worth the work you so desire.

Donna

Thanks Donna. That helps answer my question.

[bchgirl]

Not to take this off topic..although that was abridged several pages back...why would you say biewers are "obviously" a mix?

In essence what you suggested is the path Mr. Biewer took with his dogs. The VDH (German equilivant of AKC) denied to allow him to show his dogs. He continued to develop the breed and had them accepted as a breed of their own in 1989 with ACH German e.V.