honest question to breeders

[BabyBrizzy]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I can only speak for myself here and I wish I could at least recoup what I've spent with showing/breeding...BUT I'm not in this to make money because I guess being in the hole in the tune of about 100 grand in the 6 years I've been doing this says that I love what I'm doing and doing it for the love and passion of showing and breeding (which I don't breed much).
Yorkies ears should NEVER be cropped...I dock tails because our standard calls for docked tails and I show my yorkies. When and if the standard changes to a full tail then I will not dock a show dogs tail.

If you see a trend with some of us posters it's because in your words stand by our convictions and our passion for this wonderful breed

Donna

Does it really cost that much to breed Yorkies?? I mean, I have never wanted to get into breeding, but holy moly that is alot of money! No wonder so many people dont do it the right way... Its sad really..

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by BabyBrizzy

Does it really cost that much to breed Yorkies?? I mean, I have never wanted to get into breeding, but holy moly that is alot of money! No wonder so many people dont do it the right way... Its sad really..

Donna has specialed a couple of dogs....dogs that have reached #1 Bitch and Radar was in the Top 10 dogs....Handling prices cost...What she is attempting to say is that she can never recoup her costs by selling litters.

And yes, producing a litter costs. You have all the required testing done on your breeding pair; bile acids, hips & knees x-rayed, eyes, ears and heart checked, blood tests for infections, bucellosis testing, as well as ultra sounds/songrams performed on your female.....Then there is the costs of medical supplies and meds to have on hand, whelping pens/areas/confinement. Bedding and changes as they are changed after every puppy and at the minimum twice a day, while pups are being nursed; then there is proper nutrition for mother and it's not just dog food.....it's calcium supplements, and after whelp diets. Then there is the vet check for the dam 24 hours after she has a litter. And heaven forbid there is no emergency....cause as I mentioned earlier that can financially hit you hard in the pocket book. After that, there are puppy shots x 3 for each pup, physical and temperament tests, fecal tests and the list goes on and on.....

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by BabyBrizzy

Does it really cost that much to breed Yorkies?? I mean, I have never wanted to get into breeding, but holy moly that is alot of money! No wonder so many people dont do it the right way... Its sad really..

LOL...I am in the hole by that much but it's what goes into showing mostly and breeding very few litters. I invest alot in showing my yorkies and the cost of doing that is what is astronomical. Along with that is all the health testing, vet care, food, traveling, gas, food, grooming equipment, handlers ect....what puppies I have had I've kept 3 out of 11 puppies I've produced in my 6 years. Most people don't realize the cost they put out when involved in showing and breeding until they walk in the same shoes per se LOL...
I love doing what I'm doing or I wouldn't be doing it LOL...I do, however, prefer the show ring vs. the whelping box.

Donna

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Making a profit would be nice. However, if you are breeding correctly, testing breeding stock as well as pups, vet costs, food, training (and then if we really wanted to make a profit we'd factor in the price of showing) our pups would be going for astronomical prices). Just speaking about this on another thread....my last litter my profit came to 89 cents. Now the litter year before last, I was in the hole $2,500.00, that was after I placed two pups. But, then I almost lost my dam.....and it took several thousand to save her.

What I will say is that until you walk in the shoes of a reputable breeder and I mean doing everything correctly.....I don't really think you can speak about their expenses.

And you might make profit one year and lose the following year. There is a lot more invested in it than the cost of the dogs and their food. And then there is the time factor, some people have to take time off work for whelping and caring for mom and the pups.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by LuvMyPuppE

all you have to do is a google search and you will see astronomical prices. i don't know about you in particular, but you said we (i assume breeders in general).

i'd pay a pretty penny for a trained pup - i wasn't aware they went through training when sold although i was aware of the testing, food, vet, etc.

also, do all breeders have tails docked and ears cropped on puppies (not personal dogs)? if so, what is the purpose?

I use to have a lot of the same feelings you have, I believed that all breeders were breeding for profit, and while I saw nothing wrong with making a profit, if this is a primary motive, the breeder will take risks that aren't good for the breed. They will try to breed for public taste and what's the going trend at the moment, and become one-trait breeders. To many breeds have been hurt by this mentality.

After joining Yorkietalk, several people pointed me in the direction of the Yorkshire Terrier Club of American (YTCA), and after reading their site, I decided to talk with a YTCA breeder. I can tell you there was a great deal of difference between talking to this breeder and other breeders. She had no interest in selling me a dog, she didn't care if I bought one of her dogs or not, what she was interested in, was teaching me about the breed, and as we became better acquainted, she was also interested in learning about me, and my experience with dogs. I had to prove to her that I would be a good Yorkie parent. After all, Yorkies aren't for everyone. We got to know each other over a period of time, and I was sure I had found someone who was breeding because they truly loved the breed, and wanted to improve upon it. I told many people of my goals and what I was looking for in a breeder, and people would say, "Yeah, right good luck with that." But I knew in my heart if I were a breeder, that's the sort of breeder I would want to be.

Many of the YTCA members call themselves hobby/exhibitors, this means that breeding is a hobby, and like most hobbies you don't make money, it costs you, but because of your great love and fulfillment, it's worth it, and maybe over time you can break even, or even come out ahead, but that is never the goal. I use to think showing was a frivolous thing, all about awards and more about "showing off". I learned that it's not a frivolous thing at all, and you really need to show in order to develop an eye for what makes a good breeding dog, it's also very difficult to be critical of your own dogs, but others can tell you if the dog you have should be bred, or if the dog you have bred, is a fine example of the breed. Many YTCA members don't even breed that much, it's too expensive, and finding the right home for the offspring is difficult.

You sound like you are skeptical about there being good breeders out there, and you have a right to be skeptical, they are a very small percent of the population, but there are breeders who are breeding for the right reasons, and that’s to protect, preserve, and improve the Yorkshire Terrier breed. The challenge for the rest of us, it to support those breeders whose breeding programs we can heartily endorse, and in that way, we too will be protecting, preserving and improving the Yorkshire Terrier.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

And you might make profit one year and lose the following year. There is a lot more invested in it than the cost of the dogs and their food. And then there is the time factor, some people have to take time off work for whelping and caring for mom and the pups.

I've actually never made a profit at any time. I can't take off work for any length of time but I am lucky that my husband works only a mile from the house. I try and plan litters around the time I will have time off since I work at the schools.
When I do have a litter it's always going towards the showing expenses I have. As Mary pointed out I have had 2 specials in the ring and that is a major expense within itself and alot of weekends away from home if I'm doing it myself. When I had my bitch out as a special and was the #1 yorkie bitch in breed in 05 I paid a handler but I traveled with her and was out almost every weekend. And then Radar was out as a special in 08 and was the #5 yorkie in the country and I had to pay the handler $800 a month on top of the entry fees and then the extra shows that I had to fly her to a specialty in WA. Whewwwwwww so much involved LOL

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

I've actually never made a profit at any time. I can't take off work for any length of time but I am lucky that my husband works only a mile from the house. I try and plan litters around the time I will have time off since I work at the schools.
When I do have a litter it's always going towards the showing expenses I have. As Mary pointed out I have had 2 specials in the ring and that is a major expense within itself and alot of weekends away from home if I'm doing it myself. When I had my bitch out as a special and was the #1 yorkie bitch in breed in 05 I paid a handler but I traveled with her and was out almost every weekend. And then Radar was out as a special in 08 and was the #5 yorkie in the country and I had to pay the handler $800 a month on top of the entry fees and then the extra shows that I had to fly her to a specialty in WA. Whewwwwwww so much involved LOL

Like I said the most profit I made was 89 cents.....but, then I didn't have a dog out on circuit last year.....but, I've never factored in my showing expenses....just breeding and raising a litter....oops! heck I'm more in the whole than I thought.

[Brooklynn]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Like I said the most profit I made was 89 cents.....but, then I didn't have a dog out on circuit last year.....but, I've never factored in my showing expenses....just breeding and raising a litter....oops! heck I'm more in the whole than I thought.

LOL Mary, just think if I had more litters than what I've had LOL...more dogs in the show ring and more expense LOL....I haven't even factored in what the sire/dams have cost either LOL...darn that means I'm more in the hole LOL

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by LuvMyPuppE

okay, i have a question - and please don't take offense to it because there's no reason to. i really just want to know the honest answer.

why do many breeders sell puppies under the condition that it must be spayed or neutered? this doesn't make sense to me.

i can understand why dogs from shelters or rescues must be spayed or neutered to prevent even more unwanted puppies. however, i don't understand why a breeder who sells a puppy to a loving owner who they trust sells under the condition that it must be spayed or neutered.

afterall, if you sell it to a person - you trust that they will not abuse the dog or use it in a puppy mill - one would think.

to put it bluntly - why is it that a breeder allows their dogs to reproduce, but sell under the condition that the new owner not be allowed to do that. seems like what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

educate me.

One Easy answer simply put... Because they want to preserve their lines

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by mommadog1

One Easy answer simply put... Because they want to preserve their lines

More than that...we don't want our puppies being bred by inexperienced, unknowledgable breeders that may put their lives into harms way.

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

You asked, I'll answer. Breeding, if done correctly requires studying canine reproduction, genetics, the standard, breeding and whelping. It has nothing to do with not wanting anyone else to breed, they just don't want them breeding without knowledge. Many breeders have spent years of blood, sweat and tears perfecting their lines and don't want to see them destroyed in the hands of someone that is just breeding to sell puppies. However, if a person comes along that has the best interest of the breed and has a desire to breed to improve it a breeder will always mentor that person.

Remember it's not about the breeder feeling that there will be competition, it's about preserving the breed. So, many have entered the breeding world and don't have a clue on how to proceed; their idea is just putting 2 dogs together, sell puppies.

BRAVO!!

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

More than that...we don't want our puppies being bred by inexperienced, unknowledgable breeders that may put their lives into harms way.

Oh of course it's much more then that. The list is long! I was giving one easy answer.

[LuvMyPuppE]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I use to have a lot of the same feelings you have, I believed that all breeders were breeding for profit, and while I saw nothing wrong with making a profit, if this is a primary motive, the breeder will take risks that aren't good for the breed. They will try to breed for public taste and what's the going trend at the moment, and become one-trait breeders. To many breeds have been hurt by this mentality.

After joining Yorkietalk, several people pointed me in the direction of the Yorkshire Terrier Club of American (YTCA), and after reading their site, I decided to talk with a YTCA breeder. I can tell you there was a great deal of difference between talking to this breeder and other breeders. She had no interest in selling me a dog, she didn't care if I bought one of her dogs or not, what she was interested in, was teaching me about the breed, and as we became better acquainted, she was also interested in learning about me, and my experience with dogs. I had to prove to her that I would be a good Yorkie parent. After all, Yorkies aren't for everyone. We got to know each other over a period of time, and I was sure I had found someone who was breeding because they truly loved the breed, and wanted to improve upon it. I told many people of my goals and what I was looking for in a breeder, and people would say, "Yeah, right good luck with that." But I knew in my heart if I were a breeder, that's the sort of breeder I would want to be.

Many of the YTCA members call themselves hobby/exhibitors, this means that breeding is a hobby, and like most hobbies you don't make money, it costs you, but because of your great love and fulfillment, it's worth it, and maybe over time you can break even, or even come out ahead, but that is never the goal. I use to think showing was a frivolous thing, all about awards and more about "showing off". I learned that it's not a frivolous thing at all, and you really need to show in order to develop an eye for what makes a good breeding dog, it's also very difficult to be critical of your own dogs, but others can tell you if the dog you have should be bred, or if the dog you have bred, is a fine example of the breed. Many YTCA members don't even breed that much, it's too expensive, and finding the right home for the offspring is difficult.

You sound like you are skeptical about there being good breeders out there, and you have a right to be skeptical, they are a very small percent of the population, but there are breeders who are breeding for the right reasons, and that’s to protect, preserve, and improve the Yorkshire Terrier breed. The challenge for the rest of us, it to support those breeders whose breeding programs we can heartily endorse, and in that way, we too will be protecting, preserving and improving the Yorkshire Terrier.

thanks for the comment. i'm not skeptical that there are good breeders out there - i think the truly "good ones" are few and far between in comparison.

my original question was why sell only with a spay/neuter contract? afterall, every breeder bought dogs at some point that weren't spayed/neutered (obviously).

question: if you buy a dog that isn't spayed or neutered, does the cost go up? i mean, did you have to pay more money to get a dog that wasn't spayed or neutered?

also - my vet won't spay my pup until she's six months old - she said there are risks involved in doing it before that. if you sell under the condition a dog is spayed/neutered - is it done before the pup leaves your hands?

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by LuvMyPuppE

thanks for all of the responses.

brooklyn, you used the word "you" a lot - and i don't know if that's just habit, but to clear things up - i am NOT looking to breed. i have no interest in it whatsoever.

i actually adoped a "pound puppy" and got her spayed - i wouldn't have it any other way.

it's just something i've noticed to be common when looking for a pup.

And no doubt a VERY good question to ask. I for one am glad you asked it

[mommadog1]

Originally Posted by maryeverett1

Thank you again for your responses and for allowing us to learn something new everyday through YT!

You just taught a big lesson to others yourself. Thanks for posting your experience. And I am sorry for the loss of your friend. We recently lost my husbands mother to cancer.