honest question to breeders

[topknot]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

well, i was scared of getting a boy because i read some posts on YT about their "lipstick" getting stuck... i didn't want to deal with that. i wanted to neuter davinci the minute i got him LOL but we have to wait for his baby teeth to come out and neuter him when most (hopefully all) baby teeth are out.

How old is Davinci? Most of the time yorkies will not loose all their baby teeth. So at 6 months is a good age to have them neutered and have vet pull any baby teeth at this time. Retained baby teeth can cause a bite to go off.
Lipstick getting stuck? What???? Confused. If you mean their huh..um.. boy part.. that rarely ever happens. I have never had this problem. So don't worry. LOL Funny.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

well, i was scared of getting a boy because i read some posts on YT about their "lipstick" getting stuck... i didn't want to deal with that. i wanted to neuter davinci the minute i got him LOL but we have to wait for his baby teeth to come out and neuter him when most (hopefully all) baby teeth are out.

Lol, I've never seen Joey's lipstick, he's not really a macho dog.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

what should a breeder do if he/she has 4 puppies to sell, and 4 qualified families to sell the dogs to, but all of them prefer to have a female puppy? i think it would make sense to sell the female for more, that way the families who preferred a female but got a male instead at least got it for a better price.

Umm I think there are many factors into choice and price selection vis a vis male vs female puppy, both non breeding puppies. At first blush I would want to know who is going to pay for the spay/neuter. Usually more expensive to spay females versus males. Then of course there is temperament differences between males/females. some breeds have more pronounce differences in temperament, size, etc.

I can see a breeder electing to either price the same for male/female, or create a price difference between the two. Also what needs to be considered is buyer preferenece on the dog.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by topknot

How old is Davinci? Most of the time yorkies will not loose all their baby teeth. So at 6 months is a good age to have them neutered and have vet pull any baby teeth at this time. Retained baby teeth can cause a bite to go off.
Lipstick getting stuck? What???? Confused. If you mean their huh..um.. boy part.. that rarely ever happens. I have never had this problem. So don't worry. LOL Funny.

davinci is only 18 weeks old, i had wanted to neuter him when i got him at 12 weeks old. lol

yea, we are waiting till 6 month to neuter him.

oh, and davinci is a maltese, not a yorkie. but i kind of think maltese are just white yorkies. haha.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Lol, I've never seen Joey's lipstick, he's not really a macho dog.

yes, i was very happy to see that davinci has a tiny penis. i hope his penis and balls will be tiny forever, i will be a proud mom. (am i allowed to talk about penis size on this forum?)

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I see nothing wrong with this, but isn't it hard to evaluate a puppy? I look at the buying of a dog differently than most people; I look it more as supporting a breeder than buying a dog. The difference is, once I find a breeder whose program I admire, I believe that any of her dogs will make a great pet. It's not important to me that Joey meets standard, I think he does, but I would have loved him the same even if he didn't. I'm supporting his breeder because that's the type of breeder, I'd like to see breeding, and that's the type of breeder who will ensure that healthy yorkies who look like yorkies are around 100 years from now.

Evaluating puppies isn't an exact science, but some things do become apparent by the time they are old enough to be placed. Though things can go off in what you would think is an ideal pup and some can do the ugly duckling/swan thing, I'm constantly evaluating my pups and do my best at assessing their virtues and faults. Without evaluating, how would one know what to keep to continue their program and which ones to place? That last point is kind of obvious, I know, but included it since it's so central for a breeder in realizing their goals.

I know that with Bonnie's and Roger's first litter I held all the pups back until they were 9 months old. I had high hopes for the litter but wanted to see with my own eyes just how they developed and matured. By that age, I was confident in knowing how they would turn out. By that time, their skulls and structure were largely set, the coat had come in enough to see...size and temperament were apparent, etc.. Though they weren't fully mature, I had a pretty good handle on what they would become.

Now, I'm not saying to hold all your pups to that age but it was critical info for me at that time since Bonnie and Roger are key to what I'm trying to accomplish.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

yes, i was very happy to see that davinci has a tiny penis. i hope his penis and balls will be tiny forever, i will be a proud mom. (am i allowed to talk about penis size on this forum?)

I know this is one time; I like those tiny penises. Can I say that? Anyway, I'm not afraid to give tummy kisses, but some owners wouldn't dare, ask Wylie's Mom, and Alaska Yorkie, if they give tummy kisses!

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I know this is one time; I like those tiny penises. Can I say that? Anyway, I'm not afraid to give tummy kisses, but some owners wouldn't dare, ask Wylie's Mom, and Alaska Yorkie, if they give tummy kisses!

LOL! i am not afraid to give tummy kisses either!

[DerbyLayne]

Wow that took awhile to read all that, but great thread!

Ok, I need to really put this out there.

I often think back to my husband's decision, and the breeder he chose to get Derby from. We look back now and we were very uneducated. We did look through classifieds, and websites, seeking a good Yorkie. (I know, I know....) We emailed a lot of people, but only a few got back to us. We were willing to wait for a litter, or take one now, whichever happened- happened. My husband also wanted a larger Yorkie, so he sought out breeders who had larger-sized Yorkie litters (ones we'd hope would be the 5-7 pound full size Yorkie size)

Now, if he only knew then what we know now- right?

I felt like we really tried to do research the best the we knew how. We knew that those seeling "cheap" priced Yorkies, were probably not the better Yorkies. We thought that the more we paid, the better the Yorkie... but we know now, that we thought wrong. We also looked at what came with the puppy, and found those who seemed like better breeders, offered the most stuff. I mean, how nice was it be all set with your new puppy? It also came with a set of papers that listed his breed on it, and the first round of shots that he got. (We found later, he didn't have all the shots he needed).

I've expressed my shortcomings of Derby around this board, and it's not that I don't love my dog because I do! but I feel really lied to, and our breeder who so kindly said "oh email us! we want to see pictures as he grows up", and a their daughter who cried giving Derby up to us, meant that they were good people/breeders and they're not. They dissapeared off the face of the earth, and the emails I sent with pics and updated on how he is doing got returned to us.

My husband had extensive conversations with them, and they listened to all our questions. (I went through this with all the breeders we had in mind) and in the end- my hubby suprised me with Derby from the one with the little girl/the family oriented one who seemed generally more interested in our life, and our future life with Derby. He ultimately got to choose, and I was away doing some wedding planning at the time. Derby was delivered. We never saw his parents, but they were from out of town. We couldn't physically drive there. We thought it was so nice of them to do this for us.

I guess what I'm saying is- how do you KNOW you've got a good breeder when you believe in your heart the breeder you've been in contact with seems good?

I want to believe that Derby came from a loving home environment. I want to believe that he is a purebred (albeit maybe, badly bred) Yorkie. I want to believe that maybe there was an email issue, and we just lost contact with these people.

I know now that he came from a BYB, when I had never known what that was. My purebred Chow we had growing up came from a home who bred purebreds. I guess I just figured, just because they did it in their home means they're good? But I also came from a very small town where the only places you got purebreds were from home breeders. I live in a big city now, and it's not that at all. I am exposed to so much more scam now, and I guess I still have that small-town honest heart.

I feel really cheated. I know there is no price we should put on our loving pets, but I believe that we paid a heck of a lot of money for a dog that was dropped off and never got to hear from his parents again. They were excited to have money in their pockets, I guess. Those people will never know what an awesome little guy he is, but we also can't guarantee that he is a purebred at all. He does not meet standard, but I also have no idea what the other puppies or their parents looked like.

I know this is long winded, but the older he gets and the more he comes into his own, I just feel like it's not fair. We did the very best we could, with the knowledge we both had, and we still came up short of having a Yorkie up to standard. If he's even all Yorkie at all.

Thanks for listening.

[DerbyLayne]

Oops I meant to put that as its own thread. Anyway, hopefully someone will read that all, and answer me.

You guys are so much help!!!

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by DerbyLayne

Thanks for listening.

Now, you didn't really think I would re-post all that, did you?

Seriously, I understand where your coming from. Everyone has some expectation when buying a pup. While your expectations should be realistic, the breeder has an obligation to fairly evaluate each pup and give an honest appraisal to prospective parents. Too many try to pass off a 'cute little puppy' as something more than it is. In many cases, the pups suffers re-homing, neglect or worse if it doesn't meet up to the owner's expectations. There's nothing wrong with an off-standard pup. They make wonderful pets. They shouldn't be sold as something they're not, however, and the price should reflect that.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

I price all my pups individually and I'm mostly guided by how well they conform to the breed standard. Within a litter, you may have both an outstanding specimen and a so-so one. I can't see any reason to price them both the same.

There are some breeders who have great uniformity among their pups and I could see uniform pricing in that case. I hope to be there someday but I do get some variance among pups. I do get some great pups but better consistency is something I'm working towards. My pricing is no reflection of my motivations but more a case of being realistic about what I'm producing.

As Nancy says, it's impossible to evaluate a pup at 12 weeks of age and know what they will be as adults. After all all puppies are cute.

And your right, there are those breeder/exhibitors that line breed and pretty much know their dogs are going to be good representations of the breed. However, these breeder/exhibitors are looking for that special dog that has the total package. That being said, these breeders have set 2 prices; 1 for pet and one for show. No fluxuation for size, male or female.

I never deviate my price even if a C-section was needed for the litter or emergency care for the dam and pups......my price is what it is. Yes, I've been known to come down in price; since it's not about the money for me, it's about finding the perfect home for my pup.

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

As Nancy says, it's impossible to evaluate a pup at 12 weeks of age and know what they will be as adults. After all all puppies are cute.

And your right, there are those breeder/exhibitors that line breed and pretty much know their dogs are going to be good representations of the breed. However, these breeder/exhibitors are looking for that special dog that has the total package. That being said, these breeders have set 2 prices; 1 for pet and one for show. No fluxuation for size, male or female.

I never deviate my price even if a C-section was needed for the litter or emergency care for the dam and pups......my price is what it is. Yes, I've been known to come down in price; since it's not about the money for me, it's about finding the perfect home for my pup.

In reality, most of mine are older than the 12 week mark when I place them. I usually can tell by then at least some things...size, shape and set of ears, tail carriage, eye shape and set, how much they're breaking color, and a decent 'guess' on size. I think you can be a little more certain if you've watched dogs from that line mature and have seen the traits expressed at different ages. That's why I posted earlier about holding all of Roger's and Bonnie's first litter for 9 months.....to see their traits mature.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

In reality, most of mine are older than the 12 week mark when I place them. I usually can tell by then at least some things...size, shape and set of ears, tail carriage, eye shape and set, how much they're breaking color, and a decent 'guess' on size. I think you can be a little more certain if you've watched dogs from that line mature and have seen the traits expressed at different ages. That's why I posted earlier about holding all of Roger's and Bonnie's first litter for 9 months.....to see their traits mature.

Even though I line breed with my lines being from Pastoral and This Time, I've done repeat breedings on dogs and never had the litter repeat itself....some draw traits from Pastoral and some draw traits from This Time....what is consistent is that great topline, movement. The only thing I begin to evaluate at 8 weeks is personality/temperament. At 12 weeks I look at them again....Never really making up my mind on that chosen one until it goes into the ring.

[Woogie Man]

Oh, I wouldn't think that any breedings would repeat themselves but you would be able to recognize traits from this or that line. Right now, I have a litter of 7 week olds from Roger and Bonnie and I see the family resemblance. It's way too early to say anything for certain and I'm constantly eye-balling them, but I feel really good about them.

This pair has some nice bloodlines but it would be considered a broken line of champions. I'm very confident in my dam's background and the sire's paternal line is good, but the maternal line is kind of a wild card. I did keep a girl from their first litter and just had her bred back to her Mom's line. She's due late April/early May and I'm very excited.