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Old 08-12-2009, 11:48 AM   #1
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Default What does breeding Biewer to Biewer mean?

What does breeding Biewer to Biewer mean to everyone?

Let me start by saying what it means to me. I think if someone is breeding Biewer to Biewer only then they have closed their lines to any Biewer that was produced from a Yorkshire or Splitter from the point that they made this statement.

So if someone said in 2006 that they were no longer breeding the Biewer back to a Yorkshire or Splitter and saw this as a mixed breeding (the same as say breeding a Biewer to a Boxer) then no puppies produced from breeding a Biewer to a Yorkie/Splitter should ever be brought into that persons breeding program in my opinion. If in 2007 a Biewer is bred to a Splitter and it produces a Biewer puppy, that puppy is off limits. If in 2009 that Biewer puppy now produces its own Biewer puppies those puppies are still off limits. In 2020 future puppies are produced and there are no signs of Yorkies anywhere on the pedigree those lines are still off limits as they came from a breeding that should have never happened in this persons opinion.


Now since the Biewer is new and no one bringing these dogs over from Germany could control the breeding before coming to America it is understandable that there are Yorkies/Splitters in all Biewer pedigrees. I am not speaking of these dogs. I am speaking of bringing in lines produced from Yorkie/Splitter breeding after someone has said Biewer to Biewer only.

Thoughts?
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:48 AM   #2
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You bring up a very good point. Do you know how many Biewers are registered in the U.S.? Without being familiar the all the pedigrees of all the Biewers a person would not know how big the gene pool is. If all the Biewers that are currently in the U.S. are all from the same lines then it could potentially be a problem years from now. Your question is one that should be thought out carefully by those that are trying to develop the Biewer into a breed of its own. Research should be done on how other breeds were developed and at what point was the gene pool cut off.

I feel that line breeding is the best way to go in establishing type but eventually ever breeder needs to bring in unrelated genes every now and then.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:43 PM   #3
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You bring up a very good point. Do you know how many Biewers are registered in the U.S.? Without being familiar the all the pedigrees of all the Biewers a person would not know how big the gene pool is. If all the Biewers that are currently in the U.S. are all from the same lines then it could potentially be a problem years from now. Your question is one that should be thought out carefully by those that are trying to develop the Biewer into a breed of its own. Research should be done on how other breeds were developed and at what point was the gene pool cut off.

I feel that line breeding is the best way to go in establishing type but eventually ever breeder needs to bring in unrelated genes every now and then.
Since this question is brought out, I want to post my question as well.

I got my Biewer all imported from Germany, and I become a very good friend with the German Breeder. We both have the idea that breeding Biewer back to the Traditional Yorkie or the splitter to bring out more different bloodline in the Biewer. I also had two splitter that Imported from Germany as well.

Recently, when I join the Biewer talk, another forum talking about Biewer. Those breeders only believe in breeding Biewer to Biewer, as what they said it's more pure and they can possibly have AKC recognize as it's own breed. And they become very defended to people that doesn't believe the same thing.

My question is, I don't know which is better for the Biewer, so I would like to know more opinion from a different view.
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:19 PM   #4
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Since this question is brought out, I want to post my question as well.

I got my Biewer all imported from Germany, and I become a very good friend with the German Breeder. We both have the idea that breeding Biewer back to the Traditional Yorkie or the splitter to bring out more different bloodline in the Biewer. I also had two splitter that Imported from Germany as well.

Recently, when I join the Biewer talk, another forum talking about Biewer. Those breeders only believe in breeding Biewer to Biewer, as what they said it's more pure and they can possibly have AKC recognize as it's own breed. And they become very defended to people that doesn't believe the same thing.

My question is, I don't know which is better for the Biewer, so I would like to know more opinion from a different view.
I think your question is basically what the OP was was trying to get more input on. I don't own Biewers and I am not that familiar with them but I feel that those people that are trying to develop the Biewer into a breed of its own should do lots of research. Someone should know how many Biewers there are registered in each club and how many different lines are out there. If there is just one club that is advocating breeding only Biewer to Biewer then they should have the answers. I would think that lots of research would need to be done before that decision is made. It might be helpful also studying how other breeds were developed. If you cut the gene pool off to soon then you could end up having genetic problems years down the line.

I can tell you right now, it is my opinion that the Biewer will never be recognized by AKC unless all the different clubs here in the U.S. can start getting along and start working for the better of the breed. I remember 35 years ago when I was showing St. Bernards I was a member of a St. Bernard club in Houston but there was also another St. Bernard Club and AKC would not sanction either club because the two clubs would not work together because the presidents of each club could not stand each other. People need to put aside there personal differences and work for the betterment of the breed.
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Old 08-13-2009, 01:26 PM   #5
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I think your question is basically what the OP was was trying to get more input on. I don't own Biewers and I am not that familiar with them but I feel that those people that are trying to develop the Biewer into a breed of its own should do lots of research. Someone should know how many Biewers there are registered in each club and how many different lines are out there. If there is just one club that is advocating breeding only Biewer to Biewer then they should have the answers. I would think that lots of research would need to be done before that decision is made. It might be helpful also studying how other breeds were developed. If you cut the gene pool off to soon then you could end up having genetic problems years down the line.

I can tell you right now, it is my opinion that the Biewer will never be recognized by AKC unless all the different clubs here in the U.S. can start getting along and start working for the better of the breed. I remember 35 years ago when I was showing St. Bernards I was a member of a St. Bernard club in Houston but there was also another St. Bernard Club and AKC would not sanction either club because the two clubs would not work together because the presidents of each club could not stand each other. People need to put aside there personal differences and work for the betterment of the breed.
Yeah, I agree, there are too many different Biewer Club in America now, and it actually confuse people.
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Old 08-18-2009, 09:27 AM   #6
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People need to put aside there personal differences and work for the betterment of the breed.

I totally agree! "The betterment of the breed" should be what it is all about. Rushing to the AKC will do nothing, in the long run, but weaken and kill the breed, MHO. Clubs and/or breeders need/should quit looking for getting the credit of AKC acceptance. Why do some people put their own wants and needs before the Biewer? All clubs SHOULD be all "about the dog" and not about personal goals! My prayer for the Biewer is they are not accepted by the AKC in our lifetime; maybe....then, they could have a better chance of developing as any breed should.

To, treasurebeauty, the BAPPC, to my knowledge, is the only club that does NOT advocate Biewer to Biewer.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:18 PM   #7
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Clearly if people would study genetics the Biewers are no where close to closing their studbooks and only breeding Biewer to Biewer. They are going to bottleneck this breed and it will die out. In fact in England they are looking at reopening some of the studbooks for some of the breeds so they could have 99 generation pedigree's...lord the Biewers aren't even close to this number. Many dogs (Shepards, Bulldogs, Cavalier King Charles) are dying slow deaths because it was more important the dog have the "look" instead of the health. How many breeders of Yorkies closed their minds to LS and just kept on breeding when they knew they had a problem? Majority of the breeders simply do not understand COI and what they should be looking at for the long term health of the dog.

Just because one club comes on here beating everyone up and sounding like they are doing everything for the "betterment of the breed" does not make it so. Every breeder who is getting into a relatively new breed such as the Biewers needs to do their own homework and must fully understand inbreeding and what the results will be. Every breeder should be able to fully read pedigree's to see how close some of these dogs are and all breeders should be able to run a COI.

There are some wonderful books but the 1st booik any Biewer breeder should have is the "Genetics of the Dog" by Malcolm B. Willis.

This should not be about politics but when people are rushing to get into AKC dogs will suffer and die. It has happened to many times with new breeds that have gotten into FSS and then had to leave because of what is going on with the breed.

Hopefully one day the saying will not be "for the betterment of the breed" but it will say "for the betterment of the dogs health".
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:13 PM   #8
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Who's all rushing to AKC? I have looked at the different clubs and have to say honestly that one is standing out as far as working toward the breed.

I believe your statement "Just because one club comes on here beating everyone up and sounding like they are doing everything for the "betterment of the breed" does not make it so" is a bit aggravative don't you think?

I have read many posts here about the Biewer and it seems there are a couple of people that come here to do no more than start an argument, leaving others to come on and defend themselves.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:06 PM   #9
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I am not sure what exactly will happen to this breed in the future. I think it is a shame if all those who claim to be so in "love" with this breed do not find a way to work together to make sure this breed is first and foremost healthy and then work on the standards of the breed. You see way too many of these dogs being sold as I say "out of the shoot" without mind to whether they will even be breeding quality or not. That is no way in my opinion an option if you are indeed concerned about the betterment of the breed.

As far as breeding them Biewer to Biewer it is my understanding from several breeds that have been brought back with very few lines that there are more than enough lines available to keep this breed going and onward and upward.

As for breeding to the yorkie, the reason given for this is usually said to be that they are doing it to improve the health of the Biewer. Are you kidding me? The yorkies have enough problems of their own to make this statement and this is in my opinion only. There appears to be more testing going on with the Biewers than with the yorkies at this point. I think alot of the health issues in yorkies are actually worse than we even realize. Mainly because they go unreported, are swept under the rug, or are just not known by their owners because of their lack of knowledge about the breed. So I guess in my opinion if they are going to breed the Biewer back to a Yorkshire Terrier then they better be darn sure about the health of the Yorkie they are breeding back to.

I only offer my opinion and what I know. I am not saying I am an expert. I welcome any information as information is knowledge. I think if all the Biewer owners would look at it like that the breed would be much better for it.

Great thread I enjoy the opinions!
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by 4lilyorks View Post
What does breeding Biewer to Biewer mean to everyone?

Let me start by saying what it means to me. I think if someone is breeding Biewer to Biewer only then they have closed their lines to any Biewer that was produced from a Yorkshire or Splitter from the point that they made this statement.

So if someone said in 2006 that they were no longer breeding the Biewer back to a Yorkshire or Splitter and saw this as a mixed breeding (the same as say breeding a Biewer to a Boxer) then no puppies produced from breeding a Biewer to a Yorkie/Splitter should ever be brought into that persons breeding program in my opinion. If in 2007 a Biewer is bred to a Splitter and it produces a Biewer puppy, that puppy is off limits. If in 2009 that Biewer puppy now produces its own Biewer puppies those puppies are still off limits. In 2020 future puppies are produced and there are no signs of Yorkies anywhere on the pedigree those lines are still off limits as they came from a breeding that should have never happened in this persons opinion.


Now since the Biewer is new and no one bringing these dogs over from Germany could control the breeding before coming to America it is understandable that there are Yorkies/Splitters in all Biewer pedigrees. I am not speaking of these dogs. I am speaking of bringing in lines produced from Yorkie/Splitter breeding after someone has said Biewer to Biewer only.

Thoughts?
You do realize that Biewers are Yorkies don't you? They are jsut yorkies of a different color, the same as the parti yorkies. If you breed a Biewer to a traditional colored non-splitter yorkie, you will get traditional colored yorkshire terrier puppies.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:19 PM   #11
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Hopefully one day the saying will not be "for the betterment of the breed" but it will say "for the betterment of the dogs health".
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:38 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by sweetsophia View Post
I am not sure what exactly will happen to this breed in the future. I think it is a shame if all those who claim to be so in "love" with this breed do not find a way to work together to make sure this breed is first and foremost healthy and then work on the standards of the breed. You see way too many of these dogs being sold as I say "out of the shoot" without mind to whether they will even be breeding quality or not. That is no way in my opinion an option if you are indeed concerned about the betterment of the breed.

I totally agree with you that to many puppies are being sold as breeding quality when they should not be.

As far as breeding them Biewer to Biewer it is my understanding from several breeds that have been brought back with very few lines that there are more than enough lines available to keep this breed going and onward and upward.

I don't agree if we truly want healthy dogs. To many breeds have issues because the studbooks were closed to soon. While it is true you can keep a breed going with few lines down the road is when the issues will crop up as they have with many breeds that have been around a long time.

As for breeding to the yorkie, the reason given for this is usually said to be that they are doing it to improve the health of the Biewer. Are you kidding me? The yorkies have enough problems of their own to make this statement and this is in my opinion only. There appears to be more testing going on with the Biewers than with the yorkies at this point. I think alot of the health issues in yorkies are actually worse than we even realize. Mainly because they go unreported, are swept under the rug, or are just not known by their owners because of their lack of knowledge about the breed. So I guess in my opinion if they are going to breed the Biewer back to a Yorkshire Terrier then they better be darn sure about the health of the Yorkie they are breeding back to.

The only testing going on for the Biewers Yorkies is the same testing that is going on with the Yorkies especially in regards to LS with Dr. Centers.

I only offer my opinion and what I know. I am not saying I am an expert. I welcome any information as information is knowledge. I think if all the Biewer owners would look at it like that the breed would be much better for it.

Great thread I enjoy the opinions!
I hope everyone can have an adult conversation about this.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:05 PM   #13
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Dr Centers isn't using biewers in any study. We asked to include our dogs. She needs access to several generations back for the info to be of value and unfortunately most are in Germany.

Health studies take years....health testing for known issues is being done.

We will have a genetics expert as a speaker at our next seminar at our speciality. Dr Jerald S Bell DVM from Tufts University and he is renowned for his study of genetics and COI.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:32 PM   #14
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Betterment of the breed and betterment of the health go hand in hand. A dog should always be a healthy, sound representation of the breed they represent.
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:05 AM   #15
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As for breeding to the yorkie, the reason given for this is usually said to be that they are doing it to improve the health of the Biewer. Are you kidding me? The yorkies have enough problems of their own to make this statement and this is in my opinion only. So I guess in my opinion if they are going to breed the Biewer back to a Yorkshire Terrier then they better be darn sure about the health of the Yorkie they are breeding back to.
You make a very good point.. breeding back to the Yorkie could be worthless towards the goal of producing a healthier Biewer, unless you KNOW something about that yorkie, it's lines, it's health and are willing to document the litters and the generations produced from that pairing. This IS what is being done by most of the responsible breeders who are working to really develop the Biewer and give it a good solid foundation.

We do not have the history of our Biewers.. we can MAYBE go back 2 or 3 generations??? and that's not giving us an accurate picture of their health.. we don't know the breeders, we don't know the types of records that were kept, the types of things that were tested for (if any).. We don't know the sizes of the litters, the littermates, the mortality rates, the life spans ANY of the things we would want to know about our dogs. We DO have some yorkies that we have 30+ years of experience with their lines.. We KNOW what they produce, we know what to expect.. we know their lines are clear from many of the things other lines are plagued with. These are the lines when you are looking to breed healthy yorkies, you would want to breed with your yorkies! This is the kind of data and experience you need to breed with some confidence that you are doing what you can to produce a healthy, robust puppy. After all, people do still breed healthy Yorkies right?

Don't you see we are not just running out to the corner.. finding a yorkie and mating it with our precious Biewers!!

We are using the best Yorkies we can find.. we are not mixing breeds we are using OUR breed.. one that we know and love dearly. In Germany, when I went and bought my dogs from the breeder.. I was told that they breed in a Yorkie about every 5th generation. At the time I didn't ask why.. I knew these were strictly a color variant of a yorkie then.. I know that now... I had no reason to question it then, I have no reason to question it now.

I am able to use a spectacular yorkie line, that I know. At least I will have one side of the equation that I feel comfortable with understand. The other side of this equation is more of a mystery, but at least I'm going to do all I can for my dogs future.

As I see it.. the future of the Biewer lies in it's Past..

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