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Old 12-10-2009, 08:28 PM   #1
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Default Anyone see the BBC Pedigree Dogs Exposed?

What are your thoughts? I am watching it right now, and have been nearly brought to tears twice. The thought of culling healthy puppies that don't meet standard breaks my heart. I don't get why these breeders don't just alter and place them? I know that this is probably more dramatized and they are choosing to showcase this to get more of a reaction. I also know that most the breeder/exhibitors that I have met or talked to don't follow the practices showcased, but still this makes me so sad. It also worries me that people will get the wrong idea that all breeder/exhibitors are like this and not support good breeders that are in it for the right reasons. It is so sad to see a sick pet, so this really hits home for me. I would love to hear other opinions on this expose'
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:34 PM   #2
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I only saw parts of it on the Today show, and thought it was so sad. I don't know enough about it all to sort facts from over exagerated fiction. Some of the opinions will be controversial among breeders, but regardless it is just so sad to see dogs suffering genetic consequences, no matter what the real reason is.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:54 PM   #3
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I don't know if this is the same show I watched, sounds like it and I found it very sad The changes in some of the breeds over that last century for the sake of aesthetics is unbelievable.
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Old 12-10-2009, 08:56 PM   #4
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Someone else started a post about the same thing and I posted there:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...us-guilty.html
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Old 12-10-2009, 09:03 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Darlene68 View Post
I don't know if this is the same show I watched, sounds like it and I found it very sad The changes in some of the breeds over that last century for the sake of aesthetics is unbelievable.
That was the most shocking part to me, that some breeds had not changed for functionality but were actually bred to be so deformed that it was unable to function. Just like people that try to breed down our yorkie, or not do health testing, it is just unfair.


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Someone else started a post about the same thing and I posted there:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...us-guilty.html
I missed this one thankyou
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:44 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by livingdustmops View Post
Someone else started a post about the same thing and I posted there:

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...us-guilty.html

Thank you for your input and information, as usual I have again gained something very valuable from your posting.
This comes so timely to me as I am selecting a male for our breeding program.
As a newbie it is so easy to get distracted by beautiful dogs and I can see how one could get numb to the information in this documentary. I do not totally agree with the way this portrays show breeders as I have talked very personally with numerous and for the majority they love their dogs and really want the best for the breed.

But for me personally this has brought my initial intentions to the forefront of my mind. Thank you to YT'ers once again for providing me with accountability, education, and a renewal of determination to better our breed the healthy, happy, loving, sassy, big hearted, vivacious Yorkshire Terrier!
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:29 AM   #7
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Thank you for your input and information, as usual I have again gained something very valuable from your posting.
This comes so timely to me as I am selecting a male for our breeding program.
As a newbie it is so easy to get distracted by beautiful dogs and I can see how one could get numb to the information in this documentary. I do not totally agree with the way this portrays show breeders as I have talked very personally with numerous and for the majority they love their dogs and really want the best for the breed.

But for me personally this has brought my initial intentions to the forefront of my mind. Thank you to YT'ers once again for providing me with accountability, education, and a renewal of determination to better our breed the healthy, happy, loving, sassy, big hearted, vivacious Yorkshire Terrier!
I could be wrong but since I believe you are wanting to breed Yorkies many of the showbreeders you are talking with are Yorkie breeders. I believe they all believe they love their dogs but ask them to start telling the world when one of their dogs has Liver Shunt and it will be another story. It has long been a big secret (and still is) that is hidden and many of these dogs continue to breed. Ask how many of these show breeders cut the vocal cords on their dogs because their barking drives them nuts. How many of these dogs just live in cages and are not part of the family. I could go on and on about some show breeders (I am not just talking about Yorkies) but I am sure you understand what I am saying.

I do believe there are wonderful breeders who do love their dogs but I believe the purebred dog world is a place that is not always kind to dogs especially in the breeding process.
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:40 AM   #8
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I could be wrong but since I believe you are wanting to breed Yorkies many of the showbreeders you are talking with are Yorkie breeders. I believe they all believe they love their dogs but ask them to start telling the world when one of their dogs has Liver Shunt and it will be another story. It has long been a big secret (and still is) that is hidden and many of these dogs continue to breed. Ask how many of these show breeders cut the vocal cords on their dogs because their barking drives them nuts. How many of these dogs just live in cages and are not part of the family. I could go on and on about some show breeders (I am not just talking about Yorkies) but I am sure you understand what I am saying.

I do believe there are wonderful breeders who do love their dogs but I believe the purebred dog world is a place that is not always kind to dogs especially in the breeding process.
And they say that we, non-show, hobby breeders ared unethical.
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:53 AM   #9
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Yes Cindy I do believe this is true as well. It's actually the reason I selected Mia from the States. And your right that the breeders who are hiding medical issues of ANY kind should be exposed. I find in Canada the inbreeding is getting very bad and the yorkies face is starting to "smooch" in.
And like I said in my earlier comment I have been doing some serious thinking on the direction of my own breeding program.

I also think Yorkie talk and forums like it are helping to expose bad breeding practices and highlight the good ones.
It gives the regular pet buyer a little look at behind the scene.

As an example... In Calgary, where I live, we have a no kill shelter but no yorkie rescues. When I first came on here I was aware of the puppy mills but not of all the practices. Now I've stopped shopping at stores that sell live dogs or cats and started supporting smaller businesses. But the best part is that now I have the knowledge to share with others... and I do all the time.

I guess the real question is how do people that are not show breeders or breeders at all help the situation?
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:54 AM   #10
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And they say that we, non-show, hobby breeders ared unethical.
Sorry but non-show breeders do the same things...and many breed out of standard on size, breed LP and other issues etc. I also know many that never do any testing of their dogs and they have buried Liver Shunt just as much. All I have to do is look at a breeders contract to know if they really care about their dogs and their ethics...their contract's will state that they will always take the dog back ... no matter what.

It is all about the ethics of the breeders and if they are trying to produce the very best no matter what the cost is. I happen to believe that you will never know if you are producing the best unless you go into the showring. You can never understand the structure or the movement of a dog from pictures and it is always helpful to have other eyes look your dogs over. This is my opinion.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:06 AM   #11
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As an example... In Calgary, where I live, we have a no kill shelter but no yorkie rescues. When I first came on here I was aware of the puppy mills but not of all the practices. Now I've stopped shopping at stores that sell live dogs or cats and started supporting smaller businesses. But the best part is that now I have the knowledge to share with others... and I do all the time.

I guess the real question is how do people that are not show breeders or breeders at all help the situation?
Yes, sadly Canada has many puppymills and actually horse issues (I won't go into here) as I believe it is a means for the farmers to make $$$ just like in the states with USDA breeders. The Canadian Kennel Club (CKC) does have Yorkie rescue but I believe most of it is done in the east (Toronto etc).

I think people who are not breeders or into rescue can help so much with educating themselves first and then the public whenever they can and to help pass laws for inhumane treatment of animals. I believe if you own an animal you should be doing tons of research (not just on YT or TV) but in general about your animals. Just because you do not have a problem with your dog doesn't mean you won't down the road so knowing as much as you can about animal husbandry is very important. I also think it is important to read both sides of an issue so you understand and can determine your path. I must have over 30 some books on dogs and am constantly looking things up on the internet because I enjoy it.

I do wish you luck with your path.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:21 AM   #12
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Yes, sadly Canada has many puppymills and actually horse issues (I won't go into here) as I believe it is a means for the farmers to make $$$ just like in the states with USDA breeders. The Canadian Kennel Club (CKC) does have Yorkie rescue but I believe most of it is done in the east (Toronto etc).

I think people who are not breeders or into rescue can help so much with educating themselves first and then the public whenever they can and to help pass laws for inhumane treatment of animals. I believe if you own an animal you should be doing tons of research (not just on YT or TV) but in general about your animals. Just because you do not have a problem with your dog doesn't mean you won't down the road so knowing as much as you can about animal husbandry is very important. I also think it is important to read both sides of an issue so you understand and can determine your path. I must have over 30 some books on dogs and am constantly looking things up on the internet because I enjoy it.

I do wish you luck with your path.
Thank you and you on yours
I am also a research junkie
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:25 AM   #13
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Sorry but non-show breeders do the same things...and many breed out of standard on size, breed LP and other issues etc. I also know many that never do any testing of their dogs and they have buried Liver Shunt just as much. All I have to do is look at a breeders contract to know if they really care about their dogs and their ethics...their contract's will state that they will always take the dog back ... no matter what.

It is all about the ethics of the breeders and if they are trying to produce the very best no matter what the cost is. I happen to believe that you will never know if you are producing the best unless you go into the showring. You can never understand the structure or the movement of a dog from pictures and it is always helpful to have other eyes look your dogs over. This is my opinion.
You make a very valid point. But as we have seen, getting that ribbon does not mean that you have bred a healthy dog.

We hobby breeders have to maintain a reputation or our puppies would not sell. Not all holbby breeders are ethical, but not all of us are unethical either.

We don't have red pedigrees to sell our dogs, we don't mass produce and sell to pet stores and brokers, therefore we have to sell good quality puppies or our reputations will prevent us from selling anything.

So although going into the ring will help to evaluate your dog on the outside, it does not guarentee a quality dog on the inside.

I feel that breeding for looks and ignoring all else is far worse than breeding a non standard color.

I also wonder how long it will be before the yorkie show dogs go the way of so many other breeds.

I cannot speak for other hobby breeders, but my contract states that I will take my puppies back for any reason.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:35 AM   #14
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My quess is more show breeders are testing their sire and dams than non show breeders.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:09 AM   #15
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You make a very valid point. But as we have seen, getting that ribbon does not mean that you have bred a healthy dog.

I agree it is all about the ethics of the breeder.

We hobby breeders have to maintain a reputation or our puppies would not sell. Not all holbby breeders are ethical, but not all of us are unethical either.

I agree.


We don't have red pedigrees to sell our dogs, we don't mass produce and sell to pet stores and brokers, therefore we have to sell good quality puppies or our reputations will prevent us from selling anything.

Well I wish I could agree with this but I can't...as an example how many people made the Dane brothers wealthy of the backs of dogs who were very unhealthy...Most people rush out and buy a puppy on a whim so as they say...there is a sucker born every minute. Also I have found many breeders will never tell on other poor breeders because it is all about the $$$ and no one cares if a few dogs die. I think you can be the worse breeder ever (we see it everyday on here) and people will still buy dogs from them.This includes showbreeders as well.

So although going into the ring will help to evaluate your dog on the outside, it does not guarentee a quality dog on the inside.

I believe this is somewhat true but I will tell you I was at a dog show (IABCA-AKC judge) and the judge kicked out a dog due to runny eyes. I also saw many dogs not get their orange card due to poor structure (which can affect the health of a dog) and the way the dog walked.

I feel that breeding for looks and ignoring all else is far worse than breeding a non standard color.

Totally agree and that is why I followed the whole BBC/Crufts thing to see what England and their Kennel Club would do and god bless them they have a heart and are making changes to the standards of many of these breeds that are suffering. It hasn't happen here yet but I believe it will one day. I believe if people would start going after breeders in the courts for the quality of dog they were sold you would see changes. Health should always be the number one priority. I loved how in England they are going to make the judges responsible for some of this...as they should. I have always hated AKC for their "turning a blind eye" to suffering of our dogs.
I also wonder how long it will be before the yorkie show dogs go the way of so many other breeds.

Actually I think some things are getting better for the Yorkies because of the internet and how the general public can read about everything that is going on and is getting educated to all issues. 10-20 years ago LS was not even discussed and it took one breeder (Teri Shumsky) to come out of the closet and become a champion of educating people on this awful disease. While I can see show breeders getting upset about the BBC documentary it is making them clean up their act and that can only be good for the dogs. As long as people have dirty little secrets it will never change. Most of the nations dogs are breed by people who bred for demand (i.e. the tinies because this is what the public wants) and will change if the public changes.

I cannot speak for other hobby breeders, but my contract states that I will take my puppies back for any reason.
As it should be, as far as I am concerned. If you are going to be bringing living creatures into this world you have a responsibility to these dogs. I don't believe it should be the government (shelters) or rescue responsibility to pay for all of these animals = which means us (taxes or donations) should have to pay for this. I would love to see a system where every dog that goes into a shelter/rescue the breeder would have to pay for the expense of finding it a new home. The animals would not be euthanized (as I could see breeder doing this) but a new home found as long as the animal was evaluated and deemed to be a good pet. I have never understood why the breeder makes $$$ but then is never responsible for these dogs again but I am as a taxpayer or a person who gives donations to rescue. I do not understand where my rights come in...I hear breeders talking about their right to breed anything they want and anytime they want.... sorry this is from another post that drives me nuts.....but with over 5million animals being put down every year someone is sucking in the $$$ and I (along with other taxpayers) am paying for it.
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