Rating of Dry Dog foods

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

These ratings are nothing more than HIS opinion of what is "good" for YOUR dog! This has always been the burr under MY saddle....opinions passed off as gospel and people thinking they are reading validated, irrefutability justified, researched, tested, and PROFESSIONALLY formulated diets. OPINIONS on what HE believes what is best for you to be feeding!!!

Quit pulling on my foot Linda, I am crawling back under the chair!!!!

Among the "researched, tested, and PROFESSIONALLY formulated diets," he points out his opinions on their overall ingredients. Just because a diet is researched and tested, it doesn't mean that they are all equal.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by pstinard

I really wish dogs could talk and tell us how they're feeling, but since they can't... If a dog is healthy, happy, and energetic, doesn't itch, has a beautiful coat and the underlying skin is healthy, has a healthy weight, no excess gas, AND has good results when blood tests are run, isn't that the best we can expect?

Using cloned dogs in food trials is something I've never heard of before, and I wouldn't have any objections from a moral standpoint, so long as they are treated like regular dogs, not harmed in any way, and taken off the diet immediately if their health starts to deteriorate. A cloned dog is like an identical twin--each has its own personality. There is nothing inhumane about it unless you treat them inhumanely.

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

When I first started studying, there were two schools of thought, one was as long as you got all the nutrients you need, and you’d be fine as long, as you weren't overweight. You could eat fast food and take a vitamin, and that was considered fine. Don’t get mad, but this is how a lot of dog food companies produce kibble, any combination of ingredients that fit the bill and then they add the extra synthetic vitamins as needed. Tested and approved. Just so all the blanks were filled; it didn’t matter if the protein was easy or hard to digest or if the vitamins are synthetic or not.

The other school of thought was that there was more to food than amino acids and vitamins and minerals, and eating foods with real vitamins allowed our bodies to use them better. While no tests could really show the differences at that time, new tests are showing some differences in real vs. synthetic vitamins. Also, I notice diet didn't make much difference when I was young, I think it was when I reached middle age that "you are what you eat" became more true for me. I do notice a great difference when I eat a certain type of diet. I've been studying this for over 50 years, and it's only in the last few years that I'm leaning toward what some call “biologically appropriate” and real vitamins vs. synthetic and whole food rather than processed foods. Dog foods that have these things are also tested, so I don’t know why people think they aren’t tested and approved. I heard one vet say something about a diet that is close to the moisture content of food they would eat in the wild and how it may make a difference as a dog ages because being in a state of constant dehydration might be stressful on the kidneys. Do we have proof of that yet, no but it is interesting. I wish I could be as sure as all of you are, but I have major doubts that a food is the best just because a vet nutritionist hired by a company approves it.

Also, does anyone know if you can even become a vet nutritionist without studying through one of the major food manufacturers?

On cloning, I think people just think it's not right to keep an animal in a lab all of it's life and then dissect it. It's not the cloning per say they are against. That's actually the way they did food trials in the past, but many of us don't feel like the knowledge is worth it. That's how they learned what minimum standards were and if they went below a certain level how bones and organs would suffer, those things aren't noticeable to the naked eye.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

When I first started studying, there were two schools of thought, one was as long as you got all the nutrients you need, and you’d be fine as long, as you weren't overweight. You could eat fast food and take a vitamin, and that was considered fine. Don’t get mad, but this is how a lot of dog food companies produce kibble, any combination of ingredients that fit the bill and then they add the extra synthetic vitamins as needed. Tested and approved. Just so all the blanks were filled; it didn’t matter if the protein was easy or hard to digest or if the vitamins are synthetic or not.

The other school of thought was that there was more to food than amino acids and vitamins and minerals, and eating foods with real vitamins allowed our bodies to use them better. While no tests could really show the differences at that time, new tests are showing some differences in real vs. synthetic vitamins. Also, I notice diet didn't make much difference when I was young, I think it was when I reached middle age that "you are what you eat" became more true for me. I do notice a great difference when I eat a certain type of diet. I've been studying this for over 50 years, and it's only in the last few years that I'm leaning toward what some call “biologically appropriate” and real vitamins vs. synthetic and whole food rather than processed foods. Dog foods that have these things are also tested, so I don’t know why people think they aren’t tested and approved. I heard one vet say something about a diet that is close to the moisture content of food they would eat in the wild and how it may make a difference as a dog ages because being in a state of constant dehydration might be stressful on the kidneys. Do we have proof of that yet, no but it is interesting. I wish I could be as sure as all of you are, but I have major doubts that a food is the best just because a vet nutritionist hired by a company approves it.

Also, does anyone know if you can even become a vet nutritionist without studying through one of the major food manufacturers?

On cloning, I think people just think it's not right to keep an animal in a lab all of it's life and then dissect it. It's not the cloning per say they are against. That's actually the way they did food trials in the past, but many of us don't feel like the knowledge is worth it. That's how they learned what minimum standards were and if they went below a certain level how bones and organs would suffer, those things aren't noticeable to the naked eye.

I'll just address the last two paragraphs, since that's where I have the most knowledge. Veterinary nutritionists have to have a veterinary medicine degree from an accredited veterinary college. Then they go through additional education and certification through the American College of Veterinary Nutrition. It has nothing to do with working for a dog food company. See Frequently Asked Questions American College of Veterinary Nutrition

The residency training program in veterinary nutrition is extensive. After achieving a degree in veterinary medicine and completing at least 1 year of internship or clinical experience, residency training includes at least 2 years of study, with a focus on both basic and clinical nutrition as well as research and teaching. Trainees study under the mentorship of at least one boarded veterinary nutritionist and often with contact with many others over the course of the program. Some programs also require graduate level coursework and rotation with other specialists (such as Internal Medicine, Critical Care, and Clinical Pathology). Trainees must prepare and write up three case reports to qualify to take the board exam. The two day written examination is offered annually and covers a wide range of nutritional and medical knowledge.

About the cloning, I too would object if dogs spent their entire life in the lab and then were sacrificed and dissected just for a dog food trial. I would think that physical exams and blood testing would be sufficient to judge the dogs' health. Now that they know the basics of nutrition and how to keep dogs alive, they don't have to starve them or deny vitamins and minerals anymore.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by pstinard

I'll just address the last two paragraphs, since that's where I have the most knowledge. Veterinary nutritionists have to have a veterinary medicine degree from an accredited veterinary college. Then they go through additional education and certification through the American College of Veterinary Nutrition. It has nothing to do with working for a dog food company. See Frequently Asked Questions American College of Veterinary Nutrition

The residency training program in veterinary nutrition is extensive. After achieving a degree in veterinary medicine and completing at least 1 year of internship or clinical experience, residency training includes at least 2 years of study, with a focus on both basic and clinical nutrition as well as research and teaching. Trainees study under the mentorship of at least one boarded veterinary nutritionist and often with contact with many others over the course of the program. Some programs also require graduate level coursework and rotation with other specialists (such as Internal Medicine, Critical Care, and Clinical Pathology). Trainees must prepare and write up three case reports to qualify to take the board exam. The two day written examination is offered annually and covers a wide range of nutritional and medical knowledge.

About the cloning, I too would object if dogs spent their entire life in the lab and then were sacrificed and dissected just for a dog food trial. I would think that physical exams and blood testing would be sufficient to judge the dogs' health. Now that they know the basics of nutrition and how to keep dogs alive, they don't have to starve them or deny vitamins and minerals anymore.

I am glad you posted this. I don't think that people realize that these nutritionists are vets first! The one I used here in Houston was a great vet and nutritionist....I miss her SO much.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

I am glad you posted this. I don't think that people realize that these nutritionists are vets first! The one I used here in Houston was a great vet and nutritionist....I miss her SO much.

Not only are they vets first, but many of them have PhDs and clinical experience of many years behind them to give good solid advice.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by pstinard

I'll just address the last two paragraphs, since that's where I have the most knowledge. Veterinary nutritionists have to have a veterinary medicine degree from an accredited veterinary college. Then they go through additional education and certification through the American College of Veterinary Nutrition. It has nothing to do with working for a dog food company. See Frequently Asked Questions American College of Veterinary Nutrition

The residency training program in veterinary nutrition is extensive. After achieving a degree in veterinary medicine and completing at least 1 year of internship or clinical experience, residency training includes at least 2 years of study, with a focus on both basic and clinical nutrition as well as research and teaching. Trainees study under the mentorship of at least one boarded veterinary nutritionist and often with contact with many others over the course of the program. Some programs also require graduate level coursework and rotation with other specialists (such as Internal Medicine, Critical Care, and Clinical Pathology). Trainees must prepare and write up three case reports to qualify to take the board exam. The two day written examination is offered annually and covers a wide range of nutritional and medical knowledge.

About the cloning, I too would object if dogs spent their entire life in the lab and then were sacrificed and dissected just for a dog food trial. I would think that physical exams and blood testing would be sufficient to judge the dogs' health. Now that they know the basics of nutrition and how to keep dogs alive, they don't have to starve them or deny vitamins and minerals anymore.

Thank you, I read it here once and I never checked it out. I knew that they were vets first, but I wasn't sure where they got their final degree. I would love to find one that didn't work for one of the companies and see if indeed there is more than one school of thought regarding, synthetic vs.. natural. I don't know why it would be any different than with human nutrition.

To do a proper testing and really learn the differences, you would have to keep the dogs on a certain diet their whole lives, and we not just looking for things that keep them healthy through middle age, but old age as well. I think there is more information growing in the field of human nutrition, and much of it would pass on to other species.

[107barney]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thank you, I read it here once and I never checked it out. I knew that they were vets first, but I wasn't sure where they got their final degree. I would love to find one that didn't work for one of the companies and see if indeed there is more than one school of thought regarding, synthetic vs.. natural. I don't know why it would be any different than with human nutrition.

To do a proper testing and really learn the differences, you would have to keep the dogs on a certain diet their whole lives, and we not just looking for things that keep them healthy through middle age, but old age as well. I think there is more information growing in the field of human nutrition, and much of it would pass on to other species.

Dr Remillard doesn't work for a pet food company and she answers questions on "ask the nutritionist" on her pet diets page. I'm biased since I've used her professional services since 2009, but she's a huge name in veterinary medicine without my little crumb of business.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Dr Remillard doesn't work for a pet food company and she answers questions on "ask the nutritionist" on her pet diets page. I'm biased since I've used her professional services since 2009, but she's a huge name in veterinary medicine without my little crumb of business.

Well, maybe you could ask her what the debates on the top end are about.

[MissSunni]

You know what guys. I am sorry I posted that stupid link! I KNOW that there are a million different rankings by different ppl and sites. I actually posted this one because he started it as a consumer! He never claims to be an expert. Its left up to anyone who reads it to decipher it as they will. The fact that alot of you think he is claiming to be an expert shows you havent really read what he says, in my opinion.

Apparantly there are a number of experts on this forum.. I should have just posted...for the uneducated consumer..maybe heres a list you dummies can look at before you buy Alpo.

I am surprised that this thread has bascially been hijacked and laughed at...but, thats fine. Have your fun, but its not at my expense because I will still have my opinions and thoughts and I will continue to read whatever I find interesting, but I will NOT post a link here again, thats for sure. I'll leave it to all the certified experts. My feelings are not hurt. I'm just shaking my head at the tone of this whole thread. Thanks to the few who tried to be rational and chose not to make me look and feel like an idiot.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by MissSunni

You know what guys. I am sorry I posted that stupid link! I KNOW that there are a million different rankings by different ppl and sites. I actually posted this one because he started it as a consumer! He never claims to be an expert. Its left up to anyone who reads it to decipher it as they will. The fact that alot of you think he is claiming to be an expert shows you havent really read what he says, in my opinion.

Apparantly there are a number of experts on this forum.. I should have just posted...for the uneducated consumer..maybe heres a list you dummies can look at before you buy Alpo.

I am surprised that this thread has bascially been hijacked and laughed at...but, thats fine. Have your fun, but its not at my expense because I will still have my opinions and thoughts and I will continue to read whatever I find interesting, but I will NOT post a link here again, thats for sure. I'll leave it to all the certified experts. My feelings are not hurt. I'm just shaking my head at the tone of this whole thread. Thanks to the few who tried to be rational and chose not to make me look and feel like an idiot.

This has nothing to do with you. No one thinks you are an idiot and you should not take it personal.

Some of us have basically been a bit tired of the drama that begins if we question the DFA, so we were just laughing at that. Phil said Food Fight which really was in jest and we all fell in line with that.

No, I don't agree with following the DFA, but there are folks who do...to each his own. I am sorry if I made you feel badly in any way at all. It certainly was not my intent. I don't even know you or have any feelings in any way about you. It was just a thread and some of us have some humor...you have to sometimes in life.

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thank you, I read it here once and I never checked it out. I knew that they were vets first, but I wasn't sure where they got their final degree. I would love to find one that didn't work for one of the companies and see if indeed there is more than one school of thought regarding, synthetic vs.. natural. I don't know why it would be any different than with human nutrition.

To do a proper testing and really learn the differences, you would have to keep the dogs on a certain diet their whole lives, and we not just looking for things that keep them healthy through middle age, but old age as well. I think there is more information growing in the field of human nutrition, and much of it would pass on to other species.

Here is another one....I am thinking of using her in the future if I need a consult:

https://weethnutrition.wordpress.com/about/

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Thank you, I read it here once and I never checked it out. I knew that they were vets first, but I wasn't sure where they got their final degree. I would love to find one that didn't work for one of the companies and see if indeed there is more than one school of thought regarding, synthetic vs.. natural. I don't know why it would be any different than with human nutrition.

To do a proper testing and really learn the differences, you would have to keep the dogs on a certain diet their whole lives, and we not just looking for things that keep them healthy through middle age, but old age as well. I think there is more information growing in the field of human nutrition, and much of it would pass on to other species.

The ACVN has a list of all of the veterinary nutritionists in the US on this page: Diplomate Directory American College of Veterinary Nutrition

If you click on "more information," you can find out where they are and what they are doing.

If you follow a dog all of the way until old age on a feeding trial, I wonder whether you can wait for them to die of natural causes and then perform an autopsy to gather the final data?

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by ladyjane

Here is another one....I am thinking of using her in the future if I need a consult:

https://weethnutrition.wordpress.com/about/

Just found this article on her website. It's short, but quite good (and relevant): https://weethnutrition.wordpress.com...-you-pet-food/

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Just found this article on her website. It's short, but quite good (and relevant): https://weethnutrition.wordpress.com...-you-pet-food/

And a few more good articles on animal nutrition and pet foods here:

https://weethnutrition.wordpress.com...sic-nutrition/

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by MissSunni

You know what guys. I am sorry I posted that stupid link! I KNOW that there are a million different rankings by different ppl and sites. I actually posted this one because he started it as a consumer! He never claims to be an expert. Its left up to anyone who reads it to decipher it as they will. The fact that alot of you think he is claiming to be an expert shows you havent really read what he says, in my opinion.

Apparantly there are a number of experts on this forum.. I should have just posted...for the uneducated consumer..maybe heres a list you dummies can look at before you buy Alpo.

I am surprised that this thread has bascially been hijacked and laughed at...but, thats fine. Have your fun, but its not at my expense because I will still have my opinions and thoughts and I will continue to read whatever I find interesting, but I will NOT post a link here again, thats for sure. I'll leave it to all the certified experts. My feelings are not hurt. I'm just shaking my head at the tone of this whole thread. Thanks to the few who tried to be rational and chose not to make me look and feel like an idiot.

Don't apologize. Each thread on dog food usually unearths new information that is educational for everyone on Yorkietalk, even if things get a little side tracked sometimes. And if you've followed other threads on dog foods, you will find that this one has been quite civil. No poster has called any other poster names, and no one has either directly or indirectly implied that you or any other poster is an idiot. If you were to dig through all of my posts in the past two years, you would find several where I gave links to the Dog Food Advisor as an authoritative source of good information on dog food. I don't think that I was an idiot then, and I don't think that I'm any smarter now. I've just changed my opinion after being presented with more information.