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10-22-2014, 11:33 AM | #1 |
Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 31
| Royal Canin Questions? Hello Yorkie Parents ! My name is Ashley Harris and I am a nutritionist in Scientific Communications at Royal Canin Canada. Learn more about me here: Ashley Harris Pet Food Nutrition I have noticed some posts with questions around Royal Canin formulas, ingredients or nutrients and wanted to offer my support to help answer your questions. I also provide plant tours and can help answer your questions about food quality, food safety and manufacturing processes. Please feel free to post your questions below and I would be happy to answer them. ~Ashley **At no time will I compare formulas from other companies because I do not have the knowledge of their formulas, manufacturing processes etc. to be able to accurately comment. |
Welcome Guest! | |
10-23-2014, 05:11 AM | #2 |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: King County, WA
Posts: 3,817
| Amazed no one has commented on this yet! OK, I'll start. Recently I began a search for a new food for my 5 pound, 11-13 yo, yorkie. I stumbled across your yorkie specific formula. Shortly after I discovered you changed the formula somewhat recently. Yorkie 28 is gone, just Yorkie remains. Later I found other of your formulas had also recently changed signified by different formulas, ingredient list, listed at retailer websites vs RC's website. That's with the understanding that RC's website is the most correct and current info, and, the retailers are just behind in updating the info. In general, what I have seen is: A decreased use of ingredients that are considered to be quality! In general, by scanning through various old and new formulas, RC's trend is reducing or eliminating chicken and or chicken meal in exchange for chicken by product meal. Besides reduced costs to manufacture, why has RC gone down this road to becoming just another Purina? |
10-23-2014, 05:42 AM | #3 |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: King County, WA
Posts: 3,817
| Here's a couple of threads involved with the discussion: http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...requested.html http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...ht=Royal+Canin http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...ht=Royal+Canin http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...ht=Royal+Canin |
10-23-2014, 07:26 AM | #4 | |
Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 31
| Hi Mark Quote:
Thanks for getting the ball rolling in here I can understand your concerns with all the mixed information that is making its way around the internet. Royal Canin's philosophy has and always will be pet first. The cat or dog is always at the heart of our formulation process and our ingredient selections are not any different. We carefully select each and every ingredient to 1) provide a desired nutrient profile 2) be of the highest digestibility 3) be of the highest quality and free from contamination. We conduct validations on each and every ingredient supplier before they become part of our supplier network, but also as part of ongoing monitoring and audits. In addition, every ingredient is tested on arrival at our plant. The change from Yorkshire Terrier 28 to Yorkshire Terrier did not change the quality or the goal of the formula, which is to provide nutrients that support the unique particularities of the Yorkie. The 28 represented the protein content, which we decided to remove from the name because of some confusion when other RC formulas had the same number (or same protein level). It is important to remember that ingredient are a vehicle to supply nutrients to the body. The change from Chicken Meal to Chicken By-Product Meal (CBPM) was a decision to continue to provide the quality and digestibility of protein and individual amino acids that we strive for in our formulas. The CBPM comes from human grade chickens where the human market utilizes the muscle meats (the breasts, thighs, legs etc.) and we can utilize the other valuable sources of protein, including the internal organs and necks. Doing this we are actually able to achieve the same nutrients, digestibility and quality for the Yorkie as with Chicken Meal. Why has Royal Canin made this move? We produce a lot of pet food, and the reality is that there is not enough chicken meal that meets our quality requirements, to meet our production demands. In other words we were faced with a decision: continue using chicken meal, which has a name that is more appealing to many consumers, but accept a lower quality ingredient, or; find an alternative ingredient that perhaps has a less appealing name, but which meets the safety, quality, and digestibility requirements we have for our products. Our choice was to maintain the same level of quality and nutrition that our consumers have come to expect from us. What people may not realize is that what are considered "by-products" are actually just as expensive, if not more. Look at the cost/kg of chicken gizzards in the grocery store, it's actually more expensive than the muscle meat and it packs more of a nutrient punch. Same as pet treats. I have seen elk antlers, beef trachea, duck feet etc cost more than a chicken breast treat. A by-product is simply a product produced in secondary to a principle product. (Analogy: think thanksgiving dinner. You go to all the work to create the beautiful turkey at the center of your table, the principle product. The turkey sandwiches you enjoy the next day would be the by-product. Same great taste, nutrients etc. but you don't go out of your way to make it for the sandwiches) Thanks! Ashley | |
10-23-2014, 08:07 AM | #5 |
Rosehill Yorkies Donating YT Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 9,462
| I am JUST seeing this Ashley!!! I would have jumped on this thread like a duck on a junebug if I had seen it before now!!! Hello Ashley!! Judy Wright here....devoted, loyal, and VERY long time member of the RC family....since 1978. I am thrilled you have found your way here....I have been in communication with my rep as well as "corporate" regarding the changes y'all have made in the formulas, and information direct "from the horses mouth" is most welcome! I believe I have communicated with you personally on several occasions as well. I personally will not "jump ship" as RC has served me and my dogs very well for many years, as long as I do not see any deterioration in my dog's conditioning, which is something I do not expect to happen! I do feed the Adult Mini, which has apparently not rearranged the order of the ingredients listed on the label....this change in the ingredient label is of grave concern for many people, and I am NOT a dog food nutritionist, so I can not adequately defend your decisions to make these changes! Believe me, I have tried!....while everyone has their own favorite brand of dog food, for whatever reasons, I am very impressed to see the arrival and active participation of someone actually appearing from the company.....I do not believe that has ever been done by any other of the brands that have been criticized or questioned on here. Great to see RC is actually watching and listening to what consumers are saying about their product! I have tried to make it evident that RC is indeed listening to consumers. Welcome Ashley....I do hope people that have concerns will contact you so you can answer questions and perhaps alleviate concerns some may have. (My major concern about RC is why cant I get your fabulous puppy milk formula here in the US to use in my tube feedings when necessary for supplemental feeding for puppies that need this extra attention.....I have contacted RC about this for several years.....even asked if I could "smuggle" the milk in from Canada!! I understand why the milk is not produced here....just wish I could get RC to provide me access to some!!) |
10-23-2014, 09:11 AM | #6 |
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,451
| Well, I am a Hill's Science Diet consumer for a regular pet food. I use different RX foods and a couple of them are RC. I don't understand how people would just assume that a company with a reputation such as RCs would change a food without much careful thinking/planning. Hill's deleted a food some time ago and I had to switch to another food. I was upset at the time, but in the end I realized that they are a great company and my pups were in good hands. I would feel the same way about RC. Anyway....I am so happy to see you here posting! I never thought to mention it to the vet nutritionist I used to consult with....she recently was hired by RC down here in the Houston area. Thank you for being here to explain this food change with RC Yorkshire Terrier food. I really found your post easy to read and digest. Especially your last paragraph....great explanation and analogies!
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10-23-2014, 09:18 AM | #7 | |
Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 31
| Quote:
We like to be aware of the concerns and questions people have not only about our formulas, but nutrition in general. Same as the human nutrition world, there is so much information zooming past us everyday, you can easily get lost and confused with the many opinions out there. I am with you on the milk replacer... It's such a great formula! Our Canadian breeders and vets can't get enough of it. It actually comes from France because we also don't have the technology at the Guelph facility to manufacture it. Unfortunately, due to import laws for the US, we are unable to ship the milk across the border. Look forward to chatting with you! Ashley | |
10-23-2014, 09:23 AM | #8 | |
I ♥ Joey & Ralphie! Donating Member | Quote:
__________________ NancyJoey Proud members of the CrAzYcLuB and YAP! ** Just Say No to Puppymills – Join YAP! Yorkshire Terrier Club of America – Breeder Referrals | |
10-23-2014, 09:33 AM | #9 | |
Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 31
| Quote:
Happy to hear my post on the Yorkie changes was easy to read. As you get to know me more, you will quickly learn I will use a ton of analogies to explain otherwise complicated topics I wonder if I have met your veterinary nutritionist in passing...? My next analogy installment: Why do we refer to it as the skin "barrier"? The skin's role is to help regulate the body and also protect it from the elements. Your brick house works in very much the same way. The bricks are your skin cells, and the mortar is the ceramides (fat) the runs between the skin cells. Your house helps to keep things you consider valuable inside, such as your jewelry, your yorkies , and your air conditioning, while keeping things you don't want out, such as buglers, dirt, and allergens. The same is true for your skin barrier. It helps to keep your body's valuables in, like water, temperature and nutrients, while keeping things you don't want out, like allergens, microbes and irritants. Have a great day and chat with you soon Ashley | |
10-23-2014, 10:59 AM | #10 | |
Yorkie Yakker Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Guelph, Ontario
Posts: 31
| Crude Protein Quote:
It was more with the Size Health Nutrition formulas we have where the confusion was coming from. Owners would visit a store and ask for the "28 formula", but it would refer to a few formulas rather than a single formula. Specifically for the Yorkie formula (referencing the Canadian formula on the website, Yorkshire Terrier Adult / Breeds / Dog Diets / Pet Store Products / Home - RoyalCanin) it contains 26% min Crude Protein. This might open a brief chat about what exactly the "crude" in crude protein means. Crude refers to the simple process that is used to estimate the protein level. It is a very old process. Essentially what happens is a sample is taken and burned in a special laboratory machine called a Protein Analyzer. The machine captures and measures the amount of Nitrogen released from the sample. Nitrogen is a component (protein) and that value is directly proportional to the level of protein in the sample. The total amount of protein is good to know, but it doesn't provide you with information on the individual amino acid levels, the digestibility or the quality. RC actually does additional testing at our Americas Regional Lab (ARL) here is Guelph to obtain precise amino acid levels and well as simulate the digestibility. This provides us more information about the formula and how it will benefit the pet. If all you did was a crude protein analysis, I could theoretically test a formula that contained hair and a leather boot, and probably obtain the same crude protein level as a commercially available pet food. Why? because leather and hair contain protein. The protein is not available for digestion in the body in its current state, but the machine would still capture the nitrogen and provide a crude protein value. Why did I want to explain what crude protein is? You might have noticed that the formula went from min 28% to min 26% protein. This is a guaranteed analysis value (a minimum). Another possible protein measurement would be to look at the typical analysis value (an average), which is more accurate than the guaranteed analysis from a protein level standpoint, but still doesn’t give any information about the quality, digestibility, or amino acid profile of the protein. Basically, the “28” was a number that created a lot of confusion, without providing useful information. The measured amount of protein in a formula is not as important as the amount of protein that is digested and used by the body. Each time RC updates a formula we make sure the palatability, digestibility and performance is equivalent or better than the current formula. In this instance, we were able to increase the digestible (usable) protein. Protein that is not used by the body is wasted in the stool, and can even cause stool issues such as flatulence and soft/smelly stool. Hopefully this helps Ashley | |
10-23-2014, 11:26 AM | #11 | ||
I ♥ Joey & Ralphie! Donating Member | Quote:
Taken from an ad, Quote:
You say you made this move to by-products because you make a lot of pet food and there wasn’t enough chicken meal. I understand that your company, in April of this year, purchased Iams, Eubanka and NATURA, and I understand that you need a lot more chicken meal, but that’s no excuse for using chicken byproducts as the main protein. If chicken byproducts are so good, why didn’t you use them before? This excuse that by-products are more expensive than muscle meat is so misleading. Anything “boneless, is more expensive, but compare gizzards to boneless breast meat and you’ll find that breast meat is three times as expensive. Also, by- products aren’t regulated in that you HAVE to put gizzards in them, a company can just use whatever is left after the human market takes what it wants, and yes since there is a market for gizzards and hearts and livers, I doubt if the by-products contain much of that because they don’t have to. Since beaks, feet and intestines aren’t used by the human market this is more likely what by products contain, and while I realize all those things contain protein, it doesn’t mean they are quality protein like muscle meat. The only way the consumer knows if the “crude protein” that is posted on the bag is “usable” protein is to check the ingredient list and see what type of meat has been used. I guess we as consumer should switch to one of the companies that are using “LOW” cost but high quality muscle meat. Also, now, the first ingredient is brewers rice, a by-product of rice with very little nutritional value. I understand that Mars makes Uncle Bens rice and has a lot of brewers rice left over, but to use it in a supposedly "premium" dog food?
__________________ NancyJoey Proud members of the CrAzYcLuB and YAP! ** Just Say No to Puppymills – Join YAP! Yorkshire Terrier Club of America – Breeder Referrals | ||
10-23-2014, 11:32 AM | #12 |
Yorkie Talker Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: San Antonio
Posts: 22
| My pup was on RC from the time he was able to eat the kibble. I guess around the time the formula changed he started to develop diarrhea. This has been a painstaking few months to figure out that the RC was causing his diarrhea. He'd never had problems with RC or any sort of treat before. Now he's on Hills and doing great, no diarrhea. He did use RC Gastrointestinal until we could figure out what the problem was. He had no problem with that canned food. I guess RC just isn't for my pup because his tummy doesn't like it. |
10-23-2014, 12:58 PM | #13 |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: King County, WA
Posts: 3,817
| Thanks for that well written response. Could you please address the inclusion of corn in RC's formula? The rice vs brewers rice might be a good one to touch on at the same time. I'm fairly new to caring for a yorkie, never gave corn a second thought until reading about it here at YT. I was just fine with corn being in a feed until I read something here. I can tell you this, I raised a LOT of quail. Once, I switched from a corn based bird feed to a wheat based. Talk about some pissed off quail! I didn't think it was possible, but, it is. |
10-23-2014, 01:03 PM | #14 |
T. Bumpkins & Co. Donating YT Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New England
Posts: 9,816
| Hi Ashley, Welcome to YT! I'm so glad you'll be here to tell us more and hopefully dispel some myths people have. I home cook under the guidance of a veterinary nutritionist but I do use some RC formulas for my pups as a back up. I have been satisfied as a customer and the changes don't bother me. I love the rebates on the Rx foods!
__________________ Washable Doggie Pee Pads (Save 10% Enter YTSAVE10 at checkout) Cathy, Teddy, Winston and Baby Clyde...RIP angels Barney and Daisy |
10-23-2014, 02:22 PM | #15 | |
Resident Yorkie Nut Donating YT 20K Club Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas
Posts: 27,451
| Quote:
Another great analogy. Perfect!
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