Dog nutrition - what is BEST for you and your dog?

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by mileydog

I can tell you what you will do. Depending on your financial situation..you will attempt to feed you little baby all the healthy things that you find while you research on various forums, books, doctors..etc....but soon your kid will go to school and learn that other kids get to drink sodas, eat frozen chicken nuggets, and Oreos...Then its going to be hard to get them back on the Whole Foods snacks like organic grapes, organic dried mango slices, and omega 3 enhanced pretzels.

Yet you will still feed your dogs the same Whole Foods quality food. Its a crazy paradox in a sense its that you just want your kids/dogs happy. Your believe that your dog is happier when they eat healthier. You understand that your kid needs to eat healthy yet don't want to upset them when you feed them grapefruits instead of Rice Krispy Treats.

yes, i know what you mean, if someone offered me grapefruit instead of rice crispy i would be pretty mad too. lol. i'd be like "what the he$$ is this!? YOU eat it!!" but grapefruit is a extreme example though, lol

[Cerise]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

that is so sweet!

i will be asking you for advice once i have kids who detest my cooking. lol.

milu used to hate eating too, now she also likes to come in the kitchen when i am preparing her food. it's so cute when they wait for you.

Yes it is!

There are many members that cook for their furkids on YT. They have great ideas and recipes.

[Ellie May]

I saw this thread just mentioned in another thread so thought I'd come back and update. I'm bored.

Looking into the raw diet more (not to feed it...). I'm now seeing that dogs fed raw (at least prey model/raw eat from home, etc,) are at an increased risk for a few different types of tapeworms and toxoplasmosis. There is also one study (which I want more information on) linking leptospirosis to dogs fed raw meat. All very interesting...

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I saw this thread just mentioned in another thread so thought I'd come back and update. I'm bored.

Looking into the raw diet more (not to feed it...). I'm now seeing that dogs fed raw (at least prey model/raw eat from home, etc,) are at an increased risk for a few different types of tapeworms and toxoplasmosis. There is also one study (which I want more information on) linking leptospirosis to dogs fed raw meat. All very interesting...

sigh~ this is all very frustrating...trying to figure out what is best. i am actually taking a nutrition class right now, because i wanted to better understand how it all works.

[Ellie May]

Me too and I think it's cool to understand how things work, but then there is teh gap between what they teach and what applies to dogs. I wish they would offer more classes geared toward animals. I'm feeling less lost on at least understanding what things mean since starting my class though.

Not sure how raw feeders feel about toxo and tapes and if they have any research showing that they get killed during digestion, but with the larvae and everything, can it get into the blood stream and then into the heart and brain? I know a study was done showing that tapes (I think they were T. Solium but could be wrong) can get into the heart and brain of dogs, but I don't think that had anything to do with raw meat in that case. So many questions... And in one study, the dogs who were more likely to test positive for salmonella were raw fed dogs "and" homecooked...

Seroprevalence and risk factors associated with le... [Southeast Asian J Trop Med Public Health. 2006] - PubMed result
[Occurrence of antibodies and risk factors for inf... [Rev Bras Parasitol Vet. 2009 Jul-Sep] - PubMed result
Neosporosis and hammondiosis in dogs. [J Small Anim Pract. 2007] - PubMed result
Perceptions, practices, and consequences associate... [Can Vet J. 2009] - PubMed result
Evaluation of the association between feeding raw ... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006] - PubMed result
Evaluation of bacterial and protozoal contaminatio... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006] - PubMed result
Merck Veterinary Manual


But then kibble (and apparently homecooked) can still contain salmonella and there is no perfect feeding method. Just something I've been looking into lately...

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Me too and I think it's cool to understand how things work, but then there is teh gap between what they teach and what applies to dogs. I wish they would offer more classes geared toward animals. I'm feeling less lost on at least understanding what things mean since starting my class though.

Not sure how raw feeders feel about toxo and tapes and if they have any research showing that they get killed during digestion, but with the larvae and everything, can it get into the blood stream and then into the heart and brain? I know a study was done showing that tapes (I think they were T. Solium but could be wrong) can get into the heart and brain of dogs, but I don't think that had anything to do with raw meat in that case. So many questions... And in one study, the dogs who were more likely to test positive for salmonella were raw fed dogs "and" homecooked...

Seroprevalence and risk factors associated with le... [Southeast Asian J Trop Med Public Health. 2006] - PubMed result
[Occurrence of antibodies and risk factors for inf... [Rev Bras Parasitol Vet. 2009 Jul-Sep] - PubMed result
Neosporosis and hammondiosis in dogs. [J Small Anim Pract. 2007] - PubMed result
Perceptions, practices, and consequences associate... [Can Vet J. 2009] - PubMed result
Evaluation of the association between feeding raw ... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006] - PubMed result
Evaluation of bacterial and protozoal contaminatio... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006] - PubMed result
Merck Veterinary Manual


But then kibble (and apparently homecooked) can still contain salmonella and there is no perfect feeding method. Just something I've been looking into lately...

Thanks for posting these! Although I realize that this isn't the case for all pet owners - I personally have a degree in Zoology and my senior capstone was in parasitology. I have also done extensive research into the raw diet and am fully aware of the risks involved with feeding a raw (particularly prey-model raw) diet. These risks are present ANY time there is raw meat involved, including for human use. Pet owners should do their own research and take the proper precautions to prevent the spread of any parasitic or infectious diseases. One of the case studies even specifics states: "Responses to a questionnaire probing practices and beliefs regarding raw meat feeding that was administered to dog owners demonstrated that dog owners may either not be aware or refuse to acknowledge the risks associated with raw meat-feeding; thus, they may neglect to conduct adequate intervention strategies to prevent zoonoses among themselves and their families."

SO... my point is -- I generally feel that pet owners who feed raw take the time to do extensive research and do employ prevention and intervention strategies to ensure their pets and family are safe. Proper food storage and handling are things I always stress when educating others' about the raw diet.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana

Thanks for posting these! Although I realize that this isn't the case for all pet owners - I personally have a degree in Zoology and my senior capstone was in parasitology. I have also done extensive research into the raw diet and am fully aware of the risks involved with feeding a raw (particularly prey-model raw) diet. These risks are present ANY time there is raw meat involved, including for human use. Pet owners should do their own research and take the proper precautions to prevent the spread of any parasitic or infectious diseases. One of the case studies even specifics states: "Responses to a questionnaire probing practices and beliefs regarding raw meat feeding that was administered to dog owners demonstrated that dog owners may either not be aware or refuse to acknowledge the risks associated with raw meat-feeding; thus, they may neglect to conduct adequate intervention strategies to prevent zoonoses among themselves and their families."

SO... my point is -- I generally feel that pet owners who feed raw take the time to do extensive research and do employ prevention and intervention strategies to ensure their pets and family are safe. Proper food storage and handling are things I always stress when educating others' about the raw diet.

actually, i am not sure if most pet owners take time to do extensive researches before feeding raw. i know i didn't, i heard a lot of good things about it, and i read some info online, and i just started feeding it to my dogs. it's not till recently that i started trying to learn more about it all. the reason is because i don't think most pet owners are interested in learning about dog nutrition, i know that i would prefer if someone can just tell me what the best thing to feed my dog instead of me trying to figure all this stuff out. i think it's more fun to read about dog training or even dog psychology then it is to read about dog nutrition for me personally.

[Ellie May]

And then even if it is handled properly by owners and they get it from the best sources (not thinking either is true for a lot of people ), there are still things in raw meat that owners really should know about. Even meat fit for human consumption doesn't guarantee no bacteria or parasites. I really haven't seen anything about if this stuff is definitely killed off if the meat is frozen or what. A bit uncomfy about giving toxo or tapes to my pup even if I though they could process it just fine, but we all have different comfort levels.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

And then even if it is handled properly by owners and they get it from the best sources (not thinking either is true for a lot of people ), there are still things in raw meat that owners really should know about. Even meat fit for human consumption doesn't guarantee no bacteria or parasites. I really haven't seen anything about if this stuff is definitely killed off if the meat is frozen or what. A bit uncomfy about giving toxo or tapes to my pup even if I though they could process it just fine, but we all have different comfort levels.

i started feeding raw to my dogs because i feel that it's the best choice as far as nutrition, and when i learned a little bit more. i started looking into the safety issues, and feel that home-cooking is a good comprise between raw food and kibble, safety and nutrition.

someone had suggested that i make my own raw dog food, but i feel even less safe about that option because honestly, with the pre-made raw dog food, they know you will be feeding it raw to the dogs, but with raw people food, they expect you to cook it before consuming it. so i am not sure how safe it is to make your own raw food.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

i started feeding raw to my dogs because i feel that it's the best choice as far as nutrition, and when i learned a little bit more. i started looking into the safety issues, and feel that home-cooking is a good comprise between raw food and kibble, safety and nutrition.

someone had suggested that i make my own raw dog food, but i feel even less safe about that option because honestly, with the pre-made raw dog food, they know you will be feeding it raw to the dogs, but with raw people food, they expect you to cook it before consuming it. so i am not sure how safe it is to make your own raw food.

I want to know if parasite larvae is killed during freezing. Anybody know?
I can tell you reallllllllllllly want what is best. For us, the choice is so easy b/c she isn't allowed to have anything else medically. lol.

At this point, I think what diet is better for the doggies is based on hearsay and not necessarily science. We can say that wolves eat raw so dogs should, but is that the safest? Probably not. There are no studies that take a look at the overall picture. It's all one small area of the feeding plan and the control groups don't seem quite right to me. In the one study they tested what, 24 types of raw food against 4 types of kibble/canned? I dunno. Doesn't seem right. But then, of course raw is going to have more bacteria, etc. So nutritionally speaking we could say that dogs should get what wolves get b/c they are pretty much wolves. But that does not take the safety issue into account, the fact that what wolves eat my not be optimal, etc. Just like I can say homecooked is great if done correctly. I have no study to base that on. There are subjective reports of dogs doing well on it. There is no control group of kibble fed dogs. So it's coming down to testimonials pretty much. That's not all bad, but it's not science either. And I know for me the studies I do see on raw absolutely positively make me want to run the other way b/c unless I see raw fed dogs regularly living longer lives (it would have to be very obvious), then I wouldn't take the risk. I still see raw fed (and homecooked fed) dogs get sick and I don't see an increase in lifespan across the board (20 years +). So I think it's really still a ton of guessing.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I want to know if parasite larvae is killed during freezing. Anybody know?
I can tell you reallllllllllllly want what is best. For us, the choice is so easy b/c she isn't allowed to have anything else medically. lol.

At this point, I think what diet is better for the doggies is based on hearsay and not necessarily science. We can say that wolves eat raw so dogs should, but is that the safest? Probably not. There are no studies that take a look at the overall picture. It's all one small area of the feeding plan and the control groups don't seem quite right to me. In the one study they tested what, 24 types of raw food against 4 types of kibble/canned? I dunno. Doesn't seem right. But then, of course raw is going to have more bacteria, etc. So nutritionally speaking we could say that dogs should get what wolves get b/c they are pretty much wolves. But that does not take the safety issue into account, the fact that what wolves eat my not be optimal, etc. Just like I can say homecooked is great if done correctly. I have no study to base that on. There are subjective reports of dogs doing well on it. There is no control group of kibble fed dogs. So it's coming down to testimonials pretty much. That's not all bad, but it's not science either. And I know for me the studies I do see on raw absolutely positively make me want to run the other way b/c unless I see raw fed dogs regularly living longer lives (it would have to be very obvious), then I wouldn't take the risk. I still see raw fed (and homecooked fed) dogs get sick and I don't see an increase in lifespan across the board (20 years +). So I think it's really still a ton of guessing.

ok, you always answer my questions, so i really want to answer a few questions for you! (but you always know more than i do! so it's hard to do!) lol.

i just looked at my food safety notes from class, and it says:

parasitic infections:
a) worms form cysts.
b) if you eat the adult, the worm is killed
c) if you eat the cyst, calcium salts around the cyst are dissolved in the stomach,
d) worm ho into stomach, intestine.
e)travel through lymph system to muscle tissue
f) .....
ok, i am just going to skip to the part that answers your Q. lol

worms can then go into dormant stage (cyst forms)
can be destroyed at 140F for 10 minutes, or 4% salt solution for 14 days, or by freezing at -20F, sterilized meat in 6 days.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

ok, you always answer my questions, so i really want to answer a few questions for you! (but you always know more than i do! so it's hard to do!) lol.

i just looked at my food safety notes from class, and it says:

parasitic infections:
a) worms form cysts.
b) if you eat the adult, the worm is killed
c) if you eat the cyst, calcium salts around the cyst are dissolved in the stomach,
d) worm ho into stomach, intestine.
e)travel through lymph system to muscle tissue
f) .....
ok, i am just going to skip to the part that answers your Q. lol

worms can then go into dormant stage (cyst forms)
can be destroyed at 140F for 10 minutes, or 4% salt solution for 14 days, or by freezing at -20F, sterilized meat in 6 days.

So then do raw feeders universally know that the cysts are destroyed at -20F? Normal freezers are about 0F (looked it up). I don't think most people know this. Never seen exact temps mentioned when freezing raw. It looks like toxo is killed in a household freezer after 24 hours. I wonder if freezing does anything for bacteria and what about freeze drying. Hmm. I'm surprised that there aren't more charts about this kind of thing. I still think there are major issues with giving bone and balancing the way it is done for raw diet, but it seems that it would be much safter if everything could be "frozen out." lol

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

So then do raw feeders universally know that the cysts are destroyed at -20F? Normal freezers are about 0F (looked it up). I don't think most people know this. Never seen exact temps mentioned when freezing raw. It looks like toxo is killed in a household freezer after 24 hours. I wonder if freezing does anything for bacteria and what about freeze drying. Hmm. I'm surprised that there aren't more charts about this kind of thing. I still think there are major issues with giving bone and balancing the way it is done for raw diet, but it seems that it would be much safter if everything could be "frozen out." lol

i am not sure about freeze drying, but freezing at 0F stops growth of bacteria, but it may allow bacteria to survive. so during the thawing process, the bacteria that survived can grow and produce toxins...sigh~

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

i am not sure about freeze drying, but freezing at 0F stops growth of bacteria, but it may allow bacteria to survive. so during the thawing process, the bacteria that survived can grow and produce toxins...sigh~

Looks like it absolutely had to be cooked to destroy bacteria.

Also, this is what can happen when it isn't balanced:
Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a... [J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009] - PubMed result

That would apply to raw and homecooked.

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

actually, i am not sure if most pet owners take time to do extensive researches before feeding raw. i know i didn't, i heard a lot of good things about it, and i read some info online, and i just started feeding it to my dogs. it's not till recently that i started trying to learn more about it all. the reason is because i don't think most pet owners are interested in learning about dog nutrition, i know that i would prefer if someone can just tell me what the best thing to feed my dog instead of me trying to figure all this stuff out. i think it's more fun to read about dog training or even dog psychology then it is to read about dog nutrition for me personally.

Which is why I said generally. Almost everyone I've encountered who feeds raw has done a lot of research and is extremely knowledgeable about the health benefits and risks of feeding raw.