Dog nutrition - what is BEST for you and your dog?

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by kate07

Thanks for posting! Can I ask you the size of your dogs you feed this diet to and the age you think is appropriate to start a dog on a raw diet?

Just wanted to point out that YorkieDaze feeds her Yorkies a homecooked diet, not raw.

[BellaBlue82]

Your post was great, but with so many members on here and all of our different ways of feeding, you're never going to find "the one thing that's best for your dog." I think that many different avenues can be great when it comes to food, you just have to find what works best FOR THEM and what you have the time to do. I feed Sasha Blue Buffalo puppy formula, and she loves it. She gobbles it up, always poops a couple times a day (and it's the right consistancy!), and it keeps her teeth white, too (well that and the Dr. Fosters teeth wipes I use!). Good luck!

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

So, my point in all those links is...I don't think feeding "human food" (ie, homecooked) necessarily means the safest diet (sadly...for both humans and dogs). I think there is risk no matter what we feed and that every brand stands a chance of being recalled (understanding some have better QC than others). Of course, it would be interesting to get into the nitty-gritty of it - ie, what is the "salmonella threshold" for meat in dog food vs. human food, ya know? That would really be an interesting comparison!

Honestly, you may be feeding one of the healthiest diets , with good variety, and varying the sources of manufacturers (thereby lessening your chances of hitting a recall of some sort) (plus, you're still saving novel proteins in case of allergies). If your kiddos like variety, maybe you have found the ideal diet for them !!!

Oh! One more thought....as to "what is healthiest" -- I think most Vet Nutritionists might be able to agree upon (if nothing else? ) the fact that a diet balanced for a canine is very important (balancing the cal-phos etc etc), bc dogs really can get out of balance and it can be detrimental to their overall health.

i know human grade food is dangerous too, but doesn't the cooking process remove all the things that's supposed to be dangerous? that's why i think feeding them home "cooked" meals is the safest option.

what i would prefer to feed them is raw and home cooked. plus, you know how picky milu is, she used to run away to a different room to hide when i prepare her raw food. now she will go in the kitchen when i am preparing her homecooked meals, and she waits there for me while i cook it for her or prepare it for her. sometimes when she is hungry, she will also go to the kitchen and bark for me to prepare her some food. you know how unusual it is for milu to like eating. she is getting a small belly on her! hehe

Originally Posted by Sweet Apple

What is the healthiest diet for the dog?
what is safest diet for the dog?
Time commitment
Ease - is it easy to prepare and feed?
Does your dog like eating this diet?

1...I believe in raw, and it may be that you just didn't hit on one they liked...Stella & Chewies is hydrostatic pressurized, so there are no pathogens in it, and it's not cooked, so it is still natural raw...I think Primal and Bravo are both excellent too..

2...There is always a risk in anything we put in our mouths, or that of our pets...Even kibble can get salmonella, so go w/the food you have the most faith in, based on your research..

3...I think raw, canned, or kibble would be less time than homecooking, although I haven't tried that, because I burn water on the stove...lol...

4...I find raw, easy and convenient, although I would think kibble would be the most convenient...

5...My Apple wouldn't eat kibble, and was thin as a rake, 'till I put her on raw...If I think she's getting a little thin, I just increase her food, a little, and go from there....My dogs LOVE LOVE LOVE raw!!! I don't think Apple would eat kibble or canned...Buzzy Boy will eat anything you put in front of him...that boy can chow...lol...

Good luck!

thank you, i prefer the raw for my dogs too, but for some reason they do not like it. also, when i feed S&C raw to milu, her poop is not very firm, i think she might be a little bit allergic to some of the ingredients.

Originally Posted by hugz4all4

Dont believe in raw, wont home cook so my dogs eat good old dog food. Wet and dry. We have fed them SEVERAL different high quality brands. What I found out.. they cant tolerate high protien foods, they do better on some grains, thier poos have always stayed hard, small and not to smelly with just about every food we tried but candiae and innova (green bags). They did the best on Science Diet and I regret jumping on the high quality food bandwagon, waisting a ton of money on food my dogs wont or couldnt eat, making them sick, and picky eaters. Of course I wont put them back on science diet cause that would make me a bad pet owner, but all this food stuff has had me stressed out and given me one super bad headache. .

well, i think a lot of us use the dogs "poop" and their fur and energy level to determine if the diet they are on is a good diet for them. i think that for your dogs, they do very well on the kibble, you are lucky, but for us, they get really stinky/mushy poop that sticks to their butt fur, so it makes me think they are allergic to some ingredients in the kibble i feed them. it doesn't work very well for us, plus my concern with kibble is the quality of ingredients used. however, if my dogs did well on kibble and they enjoyed eating it, then i probably would have never tried to look for other things to feed them.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana

I think everyone on this board knows I feed prey-model raw and LOVE IT. Here are my thoughts on dog food, ranked in order of preference.

Prey-Model Raw
Pros:
-I feel it is the healthiest and most appropriate diet for my dogs. Scientific evidence proves that dogs are biologically the same as wolves and that they are carnivores and thrive on meat.
-It is cheap! We have a deep freezer and buy in bulk. We typically don't spend more than $40-$50 a month on all 3 dogs. Back when we were feeding kibble we spent around $80 a month.
-My dogs are the healthiest they have ever been. My vet was amazed at Franklin's condition.
-Cleaner teeth, no doggy smell or bad breath, smaller and less smelly poops.
-No need for supplements, raw diets are balanced with fed properly!
-I know exactly what goes into my dog food and where it comes from.
-The dogs are absolutely always excited to eat and enjoy their mealtimes.

Cons:
-There is a tiny risk of bacterial infection but most of the time this can be avoided if the raw is handled properly and the right precautions are taken.
-It can be a little time consuming but nothing outrageous. I'm willing to take the extra time to guarantee my dogs are getting the best diet possible.
-Choking hazard -- while there is a risk of choking with everything, some raw feeders have had issues with their dogs choking. This can be prevented by feeding BIG and carefully supervising all meals.
-There are no current studies that have proved raw is an appropriate diet for dogs. However, the scientific evidence that is there combined with the real-life results are enough to convince me! There are also a number of reasons why there are no studies.

Pre-Made Raw
I don't choose to feed pre-made raw all the time but I do have it on hand.

Pros:
-Already balanced and pre-packaged
-It is especially convenient for traveling and for when I forget to thaw out food.

Cons:
-It is expensive
-It contains a large amount of fruits and vegetables
-There are always concerns with quality control, as with any commercial pet food

Homecooked
Pros:
-I don't know much about homecooked but I would rather homecook than feed kibble.

Cons:
I personally feel like homecooking would take a lot of time and I'd be worried about balancing and making sure I was giving the right supplements. I would prefer to feed food in it's fresh, natural form.


Kibble
-While kibble works for some people, we have found an alternative and will likely never go back. It is the most convenient and probably cheapest, depending on what you buy.

wow, thank you for the info. very helpful. i think part of the reason people might be a little intimidated with the prey model diet is just not knowing enough about it. just like before i started feeding pre-made raw, i thought it was going to be totally disgusting, but after i tried it out, it really was a lot better than i imagined.

prey-model sounds like a good way to go, but i don't feel like i know enough about how to do it correctly, and it feels a little overwhelming. i don't know how to prepare it.

another question regarding prey-model: what if your dogs do not like to eat raw food? what would you do? would you try to force them to eat it? my dogs do not enjoy eating the pre-made raw, and they get pretty skinny when i feed them raw because they both run away from the food when it's time to eat. how would you handle that situation if your dogs acted like that? i thought about locking them in the bathroom(because it's a small room and there is nothing else for them to do in there) and not letting them out till they eat their food, but they just cry and i really dont' want food to be a punishment to them... i guess that's why i put one of the things as consideration is if your dogs enjoy eating the food.

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Just out of curiosity, why don't you feed prey model raw if you don't trust dog food companies and like raw?

We'll just say that I am talking about a normal, healthy Yorkie here because Ellie is an oddball. For one small dog, I like homecooked mostly because I don't like any other choice. I won't do raw and I don't trust any dog food companies entirely (even more so than I don't trust people food companies), so what's left? While all food (dog and people food) is really scary at times, I am more confident with people food than dog food. I look at the lists of things that are in our food and think dog food has to be much worse... And for those who have the time and money, if homecooking you can go to farm stands, buy meat locally, etc. (would also be true for prey model).

There are many things that should be considered though (cost, time, storage, travelling, boarding, how many dogs and what sizes, etc.).
If I had a large dog or 3 or 4 small dogs, I would not homecook. It's just too much.
Also, the most important thing. The recipe has to be balanced preferably by a vet nutritionist. I would not feed a diet long-term that has not been. It's also pretty difficult to meet puppies' needs with this diet.

Kibble, canned, and pre-made raw I'll lump into one. I don't trust the companies. It's really that simple. It is my personal preference to not feed an entirely dry diet. It doesn't make sense to me (just my way of thinking). The canneries seem to always be in question, etc. The smaller, "holistic" companies can't put as much into QC as larger companies can. But hey, if I had a big dog or a bunch of little ones, kibble here we come!!! Unless there was a medical issue involved though, I would not withhold small amounts of people food. I'd give just enough to not throw off the balance of the kibble most likely.

Raw, I think dogs can do great on this (like all other diets). There are health benefits (like clean teeth). There are also things that are perceived as benefits like not much poop. Some may not agree that that is a good thing. The big thing now is the enzymes that it provides. But, I have an extremely reliable source that says the pancreas supplies 70x the enzymes needed to digest food (I think it is). So unless the pancreas is compromised, your dog(s) shouldn't need these. You don't really have to supplement with raw, but have to feed certain % of each thing (muscle, organ). I'm not sure who came up with this system, but??? If dogs are doing well on it, great. It just appears that we aren't using nutritional information based on solid science. Did a PhD come up with this (or maybe MS)? Was it peer reviewed? And if prey model is supposed to model a wolf's diet, does that mean wolves eat certain % of certain things? See, I just think that while this diet may have promise, there are some areas that are very sketchy to say the least. The same can be said about homecooked, but I like to follow AAFCO (or at least NRC) guidelines for that, so I don't feel like there is any risk with balancing if done correctly.

thank you for the info.!
i don't feed pre-model because i don't know much about it. and i am also concerned about the quality/safety of food i get. i think that maybe for human food, they expect you to throughly cook it, it might actually be handled less carefully than the pre-made raw, because with the pre-made raw, they know that dogs are going to be eating it AS IS. so i would imagine there are safety/sanitary procedures. (more so than human food where they don't expect anyone to be eating it raw) i am not sure if this is a legit concern or not?

right now, for home cooking, i just cook the meat and add it to the honest kitchen mix. so that should be a balanced diet for the dogs, and it's really easy to do and the dogs love it. although i can also just add raw to the mix as well.

do you see any disadvantages in my approach of feeding the all three? (pre-made raw, homecooked, and kibble) i just thought this might keep food interesting for my picky dogs, and also i would be able to "diversify" my risks of feeding them something bad.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana

Ellie May, to answer your question, I'm not entirely sure but from what I understand, the 80/10/10 guidelines are formulated from two things. The first is that real life prey are roughly 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ. I know that if you are feeding whole prey over a week's time (for instance), then it is balanced and you don't need to provide anything else. Second, I know the all the nutrients, minerals, and vitamins are accounted for in this guideline. I can try to find the literature.

if you find the info. can you please also post the link here as well? thank you.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

My feeling is that generally if an animal can eat it, it's a legitimate part of the diet. Humans can live healthily as both vegetarians and carnivores. Our digestive systems have evolved to allow us to get nutrition from a wide variety of foodstuffs.

So my dilemma is: dogs can also eat a wide variety of foods. A dog can live as a vegetarian. If done correctly, it will be healthy (though probably pretty grumpy). Cats, OTOH, cannot. They are true carnivores. So I have a hard time believing that dogs CAN eat vegetable matter, but get no benefit from it.

Sometimes I toy with going prey with Thor, but I am never certain enough to really commit to it.

someone else will be able to answer this question a lot better than i can, but i will try to answer it anyways! your question about dogs eating plants and if they can get nutrition out of it. i have read in other posts that if you want to feed dogs vegetables, you must cook it or cut it up because dogs don't have the ability to get the nutrients out of the vegetables otherwise. because the only time they really eat vegetables in the wild is from the contents in their prey's stomach, which are partially digested... sorry i didn't do a very good job of explaining, but does that make sense? (can someone else explain this?)

i know someone's dog whose health improved dramatically after his owner put him on a veg. diet. but i really don't think this is typical, i think that most dogs will do best on a meat based diet.

maybe you can try pre-made raw with thor first, and see what you think. it's easier than just jumping into prey model diet. it's possible that thor doesn't like raw. my dogs do not like to eat raw.

[QuickSilver]

I guess I could try pre-made raw first... I have a feeling that if I started prey-model, Thor would simply refuse to eat ever again if I had to stop it. I do like the idea of Thor chewing on bones. I've mentioned before that he doesn't like to chew all that much, and his teeth are horrible. The only thing I've ever really gotten him to chew on is a flossy, and that's if I boil it soft first.

So on one hand, I like kibble because it's the only food Thor really crunches on, and I hold out hope that the "scraping teeth" argument for kibble is true. His poops are also very good on his current kibble.

FYI, this is the one thing I know about yorkie poop - it shouldn't be SUPER hard. According to Victoria Stilwell, a proper poop is formed, but will leave a residue on the ground. The dog should not have to struggle to expell it.

OTOH, Thor definitely only eats kibble as a last resort. I'm not sure if he counts as a picky eater or not... he loves pretty much everything but fruit, vegetables, and healthy kibble. He loves the local corner store, and cannot get enough of their treats. I thought they must be cookies or something, but it's just store brand dog food.

He is skinny, but not so skinny as to be unhealthy. He's "lean".

I did give him some homemade raw once (they were handing out samples), and he wolfed that down, so maybe... but again, I train him a lot, and I want him to think the treats are high value, which is easier when he is not crazy about his food.

But what the heck, I might as well try raw for a bit. It's another way to spoil him, and if it helped his teeth, that would be amazing.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

wow, thank you for the info. very helpful. i think part of the reason people might be a little intimidated with the prey model diet is just not knowing enough about it. just like before i started feeding pre-made raw, i thought it was going to be totally disgusting, but after i tried it out, it really was a lot better than i imagined.

prey-model sounds like a good way to go, but i don't feel like i know enough about how to do it correctly, and it feels a little overwhelming. i don't know how to prepare it.

another question regarding prey-model: what if your dogs do not like to eat raw food? what would you do? would you try to force them to eat it? my dogs do not enjoy eating the pre-made raw, and they get pretty skinny when i feed them raw because they both run away from the food when it's time to eat. how would you handle that situation if your dogs acted like that? i thought about locking them in the bathroom(because it's a small room and there is nothing else for them to do in there) and not letting them out till they eat their food, but they just cry and i really dont' want food to be a punishment to them... i guess that's why i put one of the things as consideration is if your dogs enjoy eating the food.



thank you for the info.!
i don't feed pre-model because i don't know much about it. and i am also concerned about the quality/safety of food i get. i think that maybe for human food, they expect you to throughly cook it, it might actually be handled less carefully than the pre-made raw, because with the pre-made raw, they know that dogs are going to be eating it AS IS. so i would imagine there are safety/sanitary procedures. (more so than human food where they don't expect anyone to be eating it raw) i am not sure if this is a legit concern or not?

right now, for home cooking, i just cook the meat and add it to the honest kitchen mix. so that should be a balanced diet for the dogs, and it's really easy to do and the dogs love it. although i can also just add raw to the mix as well.

do you see any disadvantages in my approach of feeding the all three? (pre-made raw, homecooked, and kibble) i just thought this might keep food interesting for my picky dogs, and also i would be able to "diversify" my risks of feeding them something bad.

Nutritionally, as long as all three meet AAFCO guidelines, that should be fine. If you're asking if I'd do it, no I wouldn't. I might feed some kibble and homecooked, kibble and raw (if raw was even on my list of consdierations), or kibble and canned; but I just see no reason to feed all the different types. I really do understand your concerns b/c I have the same ones , but mixing things up that much just isn't my thing. It sounds like you're really worried about making the wrong choice and I'm sorry. I question my choice regularly... In the end, I think my pick is the safest, so I go with it.

Your reasoning could be right. Not sure. But then, do these raw food companies say that their ingredients are fit for human consumption? Then I come back to the question: Why is the safety an issue if dogs can handle all of this bacteria? It tells me that some raw feeders are concerned about the type and amount of bacteria in meat, but what types and how much are concerning? So there are yet more questions... Actually, kibble feeders should be concerned about it too.

[Yorkiedaze]

Originally Posted by kate07

Thanks for posting! Can I ask you the size of your dogs you feed this diet to and the age you think is appropriate to start a dog on a raw diet?

I have three Yorkettes that one is 8 lbs. two are 7 lbs., a Papillon who is 5 lbs. and a Shih-Tzu/Maltese who came to me (two months ago) weighing almost 17 pounds and is now 13 pounds. (I want her down to 10 pounds)
The only raw I feed would be certain vegetables.

[ch774]

I feed my home cooked and holistic kibbles and
stools firm but not too hard. they like meal times better now lean meat..

Cheryl

[celstu1]

I feed kibble... Taste of the Wild. My boys LOVE it! They both have gained weight (which was good for Fletcher since he was too skinny), they go to the bathroom more regularly and it's always a good solid consistency. I'm very happy with this food for them.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I guess I could try pre-made raw first... I have a feeling that if I started prey-model, Thor would simply refuse to eat ever again if I had to stop it. I do like the idea of Thor chewing on bones. I've mentioned before that he doesn't like to chew all that much, and his teeth are horrible. The only thing I've ever really gotten him to chew on is a flossy, and that's if I boil it soft first.

So on one hand, I like kibble because it's the only food Thor really crunches on, and I hold out hope that the "scraping teeth" argument for kibble is true. His poops are also very good on his current kibble.

FYI, this is the one thing I know about yorkie poop - it shouldn't be SUPER hard. According to Victoria Stilwell, a proper poop is formed, but will leave a residue on the ground. The dog should not have to struggle to expell it.

OTOH, Thor definitely only eats kibble as a last resort. I'm not sure if he counts as a picky eater or not... he loves pretty much everything but fruit, vegetables, and healthy kibble. He loves the local corner store, and cannot get enough of their treats. I thought they must be cookies or something, but it's just store brand dog food.

He is skinny, but not so skinny as to be unhealthy. He's "lean".

I did give him some homemade raw once (they were handing out samples), and he wolfed that down, so maybe... but again, I train him a lot, and I want him to think the treats are high value, which is easier when he is not crazy about his food.

But what the heck, I might as well try raw for a bit. It's another way to spoil him, and if it helped his teeth, that would be amazing.

yes, milu and davinci both like raw when i first fed it to them, but they get sick of it after about a week... i think raw is better for their teeth than kibble, because i used to take my friends dog to the groomers when i take milu. her dog eats kibble only and is the same age as milu (one month younger) and the groomer always tells me that milu's teeth are cleaner and her anal gland is not as bad as my friends dogs. but even though milu's teeth are better, it's still not perfect. i just recently started brushing milu's teeth. her teeth in the front are pretty white, but when i got to her back teeth, i can see stuff that's built up back there. so we definitely need to brush.

i agree with crystal, it doesn't matter what diet you feed your dog, you have to brush their teeth. (maybe she didnt say you HAVE TO, but i think everyone HAS to brush their yorkie's teeth!!!)

so if that's your only reasoning for feeding him raw, i wouldn't necessarily say feeding raw is going to give him perfect teeth, but i think it will probably improve the condition of his teeth. if your concern is thor's teeth, i would recommend brushing and dental products. i have been using petzlife gel on milu's teeth and some special chews thats suppose to help clean teeth. there are other products i am interest in as well.

for thor, since he doesn't like to chew hard stuff besides kibble, have you ever tried the really hard cheese sticks? i think they are called himalayan chews. i think thor might like that.

[QuickSilver]

Unfortunately, a Himalayan chew stick is way beyond Thor's abilities. Sometimes I will give him the rinds of a hard cheese after I've finished with the cheese part, he likes those a lot. I even asked the local cheese shop if I could have the leftover rinds, but they were like, ew, no, we throw those out. They do love Thor tho.

I do brush Thor's teeth, but even with that, it's like there's new plaque every day. It's a hopeless battle. I don't get his anal glands expressed anymore, and he seems to be fine there.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

For people who feed prey - any concern about so much protein being hard on the kidneys?

ok, i found some info. on this for you:

• While high protein diets were once
believed to be associated with kidney
disorders, clinical studies have time and
again demonstrated that no association
exists between high protein diets and
kidney disease.
• The myth that high protein diets are
harmful to kidneys probably started
because, in the past, patients with
kidney disease were commonly placed
on low protein (and thus low nitrogen)
diets.
• Science has since shown that for
patients with kidney disease the concern
is rather protein quality, not protein
quantity.
• The ability of excess dietary protein to
induce kidney failure has been studied
in both dogs already with chronic kidney
failure, dogs with only one kidney, and
older dogs. All studies conclude that
high protein does not adversely affect
the kidneys.
• Dietary protein consumed in excess of
daily requirements is not stored, but is
deaminated10 followed by oxidation of
the carbon skeleton through pathways
of glucose or fat metabolism. The
nitrogen waste generated is excreted in
the urine as either urea or ammonia.
• There is also no direct link between high
protein and skeletal development of
puppies and growing dogs of any size or
breed. It is calorie intake and mineral
intake - NOT PROTEIN INTAKE - that
directly correlates with orthopedic
problems in growing dogs.
• Protein restriction for healthy older dogs
is not only unnecessary, it can be
detrimental. Protein requirements
actually increase by about 50% in older

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

My feeling is that generally if an animal can eat it, it's a legitimate part of the diet. Humans can live healthily as both vegetarians and carnivores. Our digestive systems have evolved to allow us to get nutrition from a wide variety of foodstuffs.

So my dilemma is: dogs can also eat a wide variety of foods. A dog can live as a vegetarian. If done correctly, it will be healthy (though probably pretty grumpy). Cats, OTOH, cannot. They are true carnivores. So I have a hard time believing that dogs CAN eat vegetable matter, but get no benefit from it.

Sometimes I toy with going prey with Thor, but I am never certain enough to really commit to it.

ok, i also found info. regarding how cats and dogs can/cannot process veg.

CARNIVORES (wolves, dogs, cats)
Carnivore means 'meat eater' (Latin carne
meaning 'flesh' and vorare meaning 'to devour')
and classifies animals whose diets consist
mainly of meat – such as dogs and cats.
The anatomical features of carnivores are:
1. SHORT, SIMPLE & ACIDIC DIGESTIVE
TRACTS. Protein and fat from animal
source are quickly and easily digested –
hence the short digestive system of
dogs and cats.
The ability of dogs and cats to secrete
hydrochloric acid is also exceptional. To
facilitate protein breakdown and kill the
bacteria found in decaying meats, dogs
and cats are able to keep their gastric
pH around 1-2.
2. SHARP TEETH (designed for slicing
meat, not grinding plants). Carnivores
have elongated teeth designed for
tearing and killing prey.
Their molars are triangular with jagged
edges that function like serrated-edged
blades that give a smooth cutting motion
like the blades on a pair of shears.
3. JAWS MOVE VERTICALLY unlike
herbivores and omnivores that grind
their food by side to side chewing, the
jaws of dogs and cats operate vertically
to provide a smooth cutting motion, and
open widely to swallow large chunks of
meat.
4. NO AMYLASE IN SALIVA. Amylase in
saliva is something omnivorous and
herbivorous animals possess, but not
carnivorous animals like dogs or cats.
As amylase is not present in saliva, the
burden is entirely on the pancreas to
produce the amylase needed to digest
carbohydrates.
Feeding dogs as though they were
omnivores or herbivores makes the
pancreas work harder in order to digest
the carbohydrate-filled foods (instead of
just producing normal amounts of the
enzymes needed to digest proteins and
fats).

hope this is helpful!

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Nutritionally, as long as all three meet AAFCO guidelines, that should be fine. If you're asking if I'd do it, no I wouldn't. I might feed some kibble and homecooked, kibble and raw (if raw was even on my list of consdierations), or kibble and canned; but I just see no reason to feed all the different types. I really do understand your concerns b/c I have the same ones , but mixing things up that much just isn't my thing. It sounds like you're really worried about making the wrong choice and I'm sorry. I question my choice regularly... In the end, I think my pick is the safest, so I go with it.

Your reasoning could be right. Not sure. But then, do these raw food companies say that their ingredients are fit for human consumption? Then I come back to the question: Why is the safety an issue if dogs can handle all of this bacteria? It tells me that some raw feeders are concerned about the type and amount of bacteria in meat, but what types and how much are concerning? So there are yet more questions... Actually, kibble feeders should be concerned about it too.

well, the reason i started this thread is because i am hoping that i will be able to learn the pros and cons of each diet. and be able to make a decision on my dogs' diet that i can feel confident about.

i know what kind of a diet is healthiest for "people". i mean, i have a pretty good idea of it. not that i choose to follow what i know is healthy, but at least i KNOW WHAT IT SHOULD consist of.

are there good books on canine nutrition you recommend? something that's not biased and based on studies?

i just haven't read anything that makes me feel like i get a good understanding of what a dog's diet should consist of. i think i just need to read more about it in general. i just have been frustrated with a lot of the info i had read, i just feel like i don't really trust it since like i mentioned, i feel that most are kind of biased.

thank you so much for your support and input, i have learned a lot form your posts. i started brushing milu's teeth because of your post! (the one you talked about flossing ellie may's teeth)

milu finally let me see her back teeth yesterday, i wasn't able to get the tooth brush in there, but i was able to use a Q-tip to open her lips wider so i can see the back teeth. she has some plaque? or tarter? (not sure which) in the back, and using a Q-tip to clean it doesn't seem like enough...but it's a start.