Dog nutrition - what is BEST for you and your dog?

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I have a question. If parasite cysts are present in raw meat (and they can be) and dogs can process this just fine b/c that is how they are made, then why do dogs still get worms?

What parasite cysts are you referring to? And what parasites do dogs get from eating raw? If you could give me some specific details I can probably answer them.

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

And my other questions:
Where did the balancing method come from, has it been peer reviewed (for prey model), etc.?
Do raw feeders know what temps kill different parasites (by freezing) and do they set their freezers at this temp? Since it's -20 and some take an extended period... I really don't think so.
Do we know that raw fed dogs live longer? One world's oldest dog eating raw would not relate to an increase across the board.

I have many other questions/concerns, but I'll post them some other time.

Also, aside from the freezer question -- can you answer these questions for home-cooked? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am genuinely interested.

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by pawever Yorkie

Well, actually the starch in the kibbles stick btw the teeth and that's how they get teeth problem. when you feed raw, dog's saliva breaks own the protien much faster and there's nothing sticking to thier teeth. Clean breath was one of the first thing I noticed after switching to raw.

In my understanding, a dog's saliva doesn't contain anything to break down proteins in the mouth. Similarly, a dog's saliva does not contain amylase to break down carbs (like a human's saliva does). Although physical breakdown (chewing) begins in the mouth, chemical breakdown of proteins doesn't begin until the stomach (for both humans and dogs).

Saliva does contain lysozyme, however, and this is anti-bacterial and may help w/ oral hygiene. There are also live enzymes in raw meat itself.

IMO, teeth problems originate from lots of different sources, food being one possible source/contributor.

[maybeiloveyou]

Originally Posted by Janie616

Before Grain is a good brand and sells for a bit more but is higher grade and has absolutely NO grain. It is a dry food as well. Comes in 3 flavors, buffalo, chicken, and salmon. Prices range from $13.99 to $42.99 (for 25.3 lbs)

I tried this one and it made my dog itch like crazy. Once I swapped it out for Canidae the itching stopped. I can't figure out why it made her itch as I have used other grain free foods before w/o effects. I'm wondering if sweet potato makes her itch...

She did LOVE eating it though and I liked that it came in a 1lb bag for $2.49 so it was easy to try out.

[Ellie May]

I'll just say tapeworms for now. Dogs get tapeworms and they are present in meat (which Merck seems to think can cause a problem). So how do we know these things are being processed properly if dogs need to be dewormed?

1. Yes, the supplementation for homecooked is peer reviewed. It meets AAFCO guidelines or at least that is the standard I have for it. If it doesn't meet AAFCO or at least NRC at a minimum, I'd be concerned. That's no guarantee that a dog will do well on it, but it's better than just giving whatever vitamin supplement that looks ok.

2. It would be the same for humans. Most or all parasites and bacteria are killed at the temps generally used for cooking. I couldn't say whether all homecookers make sure the meat is done enough, but I know I do...

3. I have no evidence that dogs who eat homecooked live longer and wouldn't want anybody to believe that I do.

[Melcakes]

If you look at the life cycle of a hookworm you'll see that it's much more likely it came from the environment and not from one's dog food. Marvistavet.com is a website that helps show the life cycle of hookworms and show why it's very unlikely worms came from a dog's food and the same for Giardia too. The chances of a dogs getting worms actually lessen on a raw diet rich in bone, because a raw dogs feces are harder, which is not a parasite friendly environment. Dogs need to be dosed from time to time no matter what they are fed.

[Melcakes]

Are people are aware of the right supplementation in homecooking? I don't think they are? Are people aware of the dangers of supplementation? It's very complicated. When you supplement with one thing you can be decreasing something else. It's a big risk IMO.

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I'll just say tapeworms for now. Dogs get tapeworms and they are present in meat (which Merck seems to think can cause a problem). So how do we know these things are being processed properly if dogs need to be dewormed?

1. Yes, the supplementation for homecooked is peer reviewed. It meets AAFCO guidelines or at least that is the standard I have for it. If it doesn't meet AAFCO or at least NRC at a minimum, I'd be concerned. That's no guarantee that a dog will do well on it, but it's better than just giving whatever vitamin supplement that looks ok.

2. It would be the same for humans. Most or all parasites and bacteria are killed at the temps generally used for cooking. I couldn't say whether all homecookers make sure the meat is done enough, but I know I do...

3. I have no evidence that dogs who eat homecooked live longer and wouldn't want anybody to believe that I do.

Typically dogs acquire tapeworms from eating fleas, not raw meat. I've been reading about the raw food diet for over a year now and have not encountered a single dog who got tapeworms from raw meat. This is probably because the tapeworm which commonly affects dogs is Dipylidium caninum, whereas the tapeworms found in raw pork and beef are Taenia solium and Taenia saginata. These tapeworms are in entirely different families and I have not been able to find anything that suggests these Taenia cysts can affect dogs if consumed. I will keep looking though!

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Not all dogs like raw. So does that mean the ones who don't like raw are just oddballs who don't know what's good for them?

I'm getting more confused. I'm just saying that nobody has proven to me that this is a healthier and safer diet and kibble will be number one until somebody can. Before I feed something, I want to be reasonable confident that it won't do more harm than good. I am not yet convinced that raw meet that criteria for me. Also, I do think AAFCO is a minimal requirement and each dog should be monitored by their owner. I also think that reviews on the internet about things going wrong with certain brands of kibble (i.e. Nutro) should not be overlooked.

And while I definitely don't prefer kibble, there are many dogs doing fantastic on rx diets. I know a lot of people on YT say they would never feed this kind of garbage (and I probably have said it before too), but when you are in a spot where your dog is sick and everything else has been tried, I'm sure minds would change.

I think a lot of people give up on raw after trying it and/if their dogs don't take an immediate liking to it or they notice cleansing/detoxification symptoms which may scare them. They expect their dogs to "love" it immediately and gobble it down - sometimes dogs do well transitioning cold turkey and sometimes they don't and need to be transitioned gradually. When one's dog doesn't take an immediate liking to raw people think their dogs just "don't like" raw. The problem is that transitioning to raw is a big change for a dog that's been on commercial food or home-cooked. There are a lot of people that don't transition correctly and then give up on raw because they think it's not working when in fact they probably transitioned the wrong way for their dog and/or didn't give it enough time.

IMO nobody has proved that kibble or homecooked is better than raw...The research and studies that exists (mostly for commercial food and/or homecooked) is pretty scary IMO. I'd take a million years and evolutionary science that shows dogs have thrived and been brought up on raw diets just fine over diets that are showing to have more issues and problems as every day goes by. The fact is that I think raw is scary for this current generation of people who really now nothing but commercial pet food and until more studies are done on raw to ease people's minds there will continue to be doubts about raw, but there will also be people who will continue to feed raw and whose dogs will thrive as many raw fed dogs are currently.

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I'll just say tapeworms for now. Dogs get tapeworms and they are present in meat (which Merck seems to think can cause a problem). So how do we know these things are being processed properly if dogs need to be dewormed?

Just found something! Chapter 5 - Taeniasis - 2010 Yellow Book | CDC Travelers' Health

"Freezing (23° F, –5°C) meat for 4 or more days will kill cysticerci." -- This applies to the cysts of both Taenia solium (pork tapeworm) and T. saginata (beef tapeworm).

If a normal freezer is 0° F (I think you posted that), then that should cover it if these organisms were able to affect canines.

Also, you posted this already but freezing raw pork for 24 hours in a domestic freezer will render Toxoplasma gondii nonviable (aka, unable to reproduce).

The raw feeding guidelines should be adjusted to reflect these recommended freezing periods as to eliminate or at least minimize risk of parasitic infection.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by PrincessDiana

Just found something! Chapter 5 - Taeniasis - 2010 Yellow Book | CDC Travelers' Health

"Freezing (23° F, –5°C) meat for 4 or more days will kill cysticerci." -- This applies to the cysts of both Taenia solium (pork tapeworm) and T. saginata (beef tapeworm).

If a normal freezer is 0° F (I think you posted that), then that should cover it if these organisms were able to affect canines.

Also, you posted this already but freezing raw pork for 24 hours in a domestic freezer will render Toxoplasma gondii nonviable (aka, unable to reproduce).

The raw feeding guidelines should be adjusted to reflect these recommended freezing periods as to eliminate or at least minimize risk of parasitic infection.

hi diana,

thanks for all the info. you've been adding to the thread. i have been learning a lot on this thread!

one quick question though, does raw chicken smell worse than the other meats? i buy pre-made raw for my dogs, but it seems like the chicken smells kind of bad usually, while the other meats don't smell as bad, is the chicken bad? or does raw chicken just smell worse than other raw meats?

i am hesitant to make my own raw, because i am scared that maybe it's not as safe as pre-made raw, because with the raw meats they sell at supermarkets for human consumption; they don't expect anyone to eat it raw, so i am afraid that it might not be very safe to feed it directly to my dogs without cooking first. any thoughts on that?

thanks!

[YorkieBuddy]

Has anybody heard anything BAD about Hill's Prescription Diet I/D? Our vet put Buddy on this food as he occasionally gets diarrhea and vomits. The vet said maybe he gulps down his canned food too quickly, and then it comes back up? Is anybody here familiar with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in dogs? I wonder if this is what Buddy might have/or be developing. I have been reading that if your dog has IBD his chemistry panel is normal, which Buddy's is, and it also says that the cause of inflammatory bowel disease is unknown, which is what the vet keeps saying. Does anybody know anything about IBD? I am worried about Buddy, who will be 6 on August 29th.

[boomerstv]

Hi YB,

Don't know anything about this diet. We feed Schmitty and her sister anall natural diet of steamed green beans 50%, steamed organic chicken 5 - 10%, steamed sweet potatoes and chopped blueberries. Schmitty like meto add a dollop of plain yogurt too. Then we add a supplement from a company called ANT (Animal Nutrition Technologies) that is formulated from 's annual blood test.

Schmitty couldn't be healthier or happier.

We once had a bout of hemorragic gastro entritis that was awful and too scary to talk about. Since we developed this all natural diet for our pups, we have had absolutely no problems.
T

[PrincessDiana]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

hi diana,

thanks for all the info. you've been adding to the thread. i have been learning a lot on this thread!

one quick question though, does raw chicken smell worse than the other meats? i buy pre-made raw for my dogs, but it seems like the chicken smells kind of bad usually, while the other meats don't smell as bad, is the chicken bad? or does raw chicken just smell worse than other raw meats?

i am hesitant to make my own raw, because i am scared that maybe it's not as safe as pre-made raw, because with the raw meats they sell at supermarkets for human consumption; they don't expect anyone to eat it raw, so i am afraid that it might not be very safe to feed it directly to my dogs without cooking first. any thoughts on that?

thanks!

Sorry it's been so long since I've been on YT!

Raw meat is raw meat so it will obviously have a smell. It doesn't typically bother me but if the smell of chicken is too much to handle you could definitely use other meats. I don't really know how to help you there...

As far as safety -- you have to go with what you feel is safest. I personally trust the raw food I buy at the grocery store much more than pre-made raw, simply because I don't trust any commercial pet food completely. That doesn't mean I won't feed it, however.

[Jan and Lacey]

Originally Posted by Yorkiedaze http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/ima...s/viewpost.gif
I've never fed kibble. I've always home cooked. My friends dogs who eat kibble have very stinky poop. My girls poop doesn't stink that bad. My girls eyes are clear, bright and very alert, their skin and coat are in top notch condition and they are very happy, healthy babies.
My Vet. in fact has just ask me for the recipe that I use to fee my girls, and so did the lady who owns the vitamin store, and she has a phd. in nutrition. This just happen last week. I'm happy each time someone notices how beautiful and healthy they are. They have never been sick a day in their lives, and two are five years old and one is two years old. I love knowing exactly what my girls are eating and I love trying new foods on them from time to time.


Have you posted the recipe? I can't find it, and I HAVE to find something to feed my Lacey..she won't eat anything other than what I eat.