Dog nutrition - what is BEST for you and your dog?

[pawever Yorkie]

concerns regarding bacteria,salmonella... etc?
Dogs share 98~99% same DNA code and if that's the case, whouldn't it be better for them to have simular diet as wolves which is carnivore.
I'm so confused...

[Ellie May]

Which veterinary nutritionists (board certified) go either way and which vet schools? They may help owners figure out what they are trying to feed. I don't know of any that recommend it, but would like to know if there are.

Also, that study you posted, do you have a link?

And after two days of talking about raw, I still feel like no questions have been answered for me... But maybe I'm missing it.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by pawever Yorkie

concerns regarding bacteria,salmonella... etc?
Dogs share 98~99% same DNA code and if that's the case, whouldn't it be better for them to have simular diet as wolves which is carnivore.
I'm so confused...

I have a question. If parasite cysts are present in raw meat (and they can be) and dogs can process this just fine b/c that is how they are made, then why do dogs still get worms?

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Melcakes

I think you'll find vets, vet schools and vet. nutritionists that can go either way. There are a lot of leading vets and expert board certified nutrionists and vets that highly recommend raw! There is hardly anything to base one saying that raw is not safe or unhealthy, due to the lack of studies on raw food, so these "believes" that raw is unhealthy according to some I take with a grain of salt since everything seems to be unfounded and the studies that do exists show raw to be much more healthier than kibble or home-cooked. Ye,t these vets are recommending kibble and home-cooked when there are thousands of studies that show really disconcerting issues with both. That concerns me. Most vets will not recommend raw because it's not recommend by the AAFCO which is considered to be the Green Steel of Approval and what Vets are taught in vet school and a large number of board certified Vets are part of the AAFCO. But ,the AAFCO and their standards is an entirely different subject and debate and IMO extremely flawed. The AAFCO standards are useless for evaluating raw food diets and why they are incomplete in determining the actual "nutrient standards" needed and utilized by our pets.

People say they want more studies and/or kibble proves an okay average track record, but I think evolutionary adaptations over million of years is much more of a record than just 50 years of dog food studies which show a lot of major concerns. Contrast this with a whole prey animal. Raw food's "best" is a brutal battle for survival over a span of several million years. Species evolved and adapted to their environments, thriving on fresh raw foods. If wolves and dogs have survived the worst of nature while eating fresh raw prey, what does that say for raw diets? A whole raw prey animal (unprocessed and NOT ground), or whole raw foods, contain the exact proportion of fat, protein, vitamins, minerals, and enzymes. One will be hard-pressed to test this in a lab, as the testing itself alters the perfect proportions. Nature's laboratory is how we know it is perfect. This is the food that keeps wolves, other canids, and felines alive and thriving, even in the face of intense pressures and hardships (many of which are man-induced!). Nutritional deficiencies arise because the animals cannot get enough to eat, NOT because the food is insufficient in nutrients.

Canine longevity and quality of life has been decreasing for many breeds since the advent of processed food. This new generation of veterinarians know nothing but kibbled, processed food and the ailments induced by it.

i am sold on the benefits of raw diet. for me personally, i do not argue that raw is probably the healthiest form of diet for dogs(safety is my biggest concern for feeding raw). what i am trying to ask very specifically is the risks of feeding a raw diet. i want to know in a worst case scenario, what can happen to my dog when i feed him raw.

if i ask you to be a spokesperson against raw diet for dogs, and i want you to convince me that feeding dogs a raw diet is dangerous for dogs. can you try to do that?

the information i am trying to get is NOT to stop me from feeding raw to my dogs, but for better understanding of the WHOLE picture. i would most likely still want to include raw as a big part of my dogs diet, but i just want to be well informed of the worst case scenario. is that fair? i would like the complete and full disclosure.

just to give an example, there are medications that increase the quality of life for dogs because it reduces discomfort for the dogs, but it shortens their life. would i still choose to give that type of medication to my dogs if they need it? yes, i want them to have quality of life over quantity of it. but YES, i definitely want full disclosure. it would make me feel better to know.

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Which veterinary nutritionists (board certified) go either way and which vet schools? They may help owners figure out what they are trying to feed. I don't know of any that recommend it, but would like to know if there are.

Also, that study you posted, do you have a link?

And after two days of talking about raw, I still feel like no questions have been answered for me... But maybe I'm missing it.

lol. i feel kind of the same. i keep thinking maybe i am not communicating properly so i keep trying different ways.

i understand why raw feeders feel defensive. i completely understand. but for me, i am trying to get unbiased info.

i too would like to know the sources of info used. is there a book on this stuff?

[yorkiepuppie]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I have a question. If parasite cysts are present in raw meat (and they can be) and dogs can process this just fine b/c that is how they are made, then why do dogs still get worms?

good question. and i know you asked this yesterday. i don't know the answer. i would like to know too.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

lol. i feel kind of the same. i keep thinking maybe i am not communicating properly so i keep trying different ways.

i understand why raw feeders feel defensive. i completely understand. but for me, i am trying to get unbiased info.

i too would like to know the sources of info used. is there a book on this stuff?

Well, Billinghurst has a book, but I won't even say what Ellie's nutritionist has nicknamed it. lol.

The "bible" (very pro commercial food and factual) is Small Animal Clinical Nutrition. It's prolly well over 1,000 pages on feeding. Great resource...not so great to sit down and read it. You'd be there for months.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

good question. and i know you asked this yesterday. i don't know the answer. i would like to know too.

And my other questions:
Where did the balancing method come from, has it been peer reviewed (for prey model), etc.?
Do raw feeders know what temps kill different parasites (by freezing) and do they set their freezers at this temp? Since it's -20 and some take an extended period... I really don't think so.
Do we know that raw fed dogs live longer? One world's oldest dog eating raw would not relate to an increase across the board.

I have many other questions/concerns, but I'll post them some other time.

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by yorkiepuppie

i agree with you that kibble and homecooked have risks associated with them. i think what a lot of us are simply trying to find out more info on raw diet for dogs. personally i have read a lot of info on kibble and i understand why it is not the best for my dogs. at the same time, i understand why people choose to feed kibble. there are reason to do so. i feed pre-made raw, homecooked, and i also feed them kibble that i consider high quality. the reason i do this is to provide my dog with variety and because i am very confused. lol.

I know more studies on raw would make a lot of people more open to trying it or feeling comfortable, that's just the way most of our society is today. But with studies and science there will always be other opinions to disqualify science or to question it and science is not always a 100% guarantee. Not saying that science should be overlooked, but science is always evolving. That's why I look to nature and evolution (the oldest science there is) as a more sound and proven science than "lab" tests and studies, which scientist are always finding can be done better and which can change findings in an instant.

It is all very confusing! I started trying to feed Zoey kibble at first because I didn't know better, but she wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole. She runs right away from it. Which now I think is a good thing. I tried every brand possible. She would at most eat 3 little pieces of kibble and I'd have to hand feed her! I think she was trying to tell me something "You want me to eat this junk" "NO WAY".

So, then I tried home-cooked not knowing about raw or pre-made raw, and that seemed to work for a while, but Zoey was picky and ate things inconsistently and didn't like much of what I tried cooking for her. I later found out much of what goes into homecooked meals (things like veggies, potatoes, and fruits) are useless to dogs and can't be digested by them. At this point, I was struggling to just find something she would eat and would give her some type of nutr. value. So, I looked into pre-made raw. I tried NV Instinct pre-raw but guess what Zoey ran away from that too. However, I learned that it takes time for dogs to transition to pre-made/raw and they need to build up enzymes they don't use when feeding on kibble and home-cooked meals and which are essential in eating raw foods. I currently have Zoey eating consistently pre-made raw - Primal and I give or try giving her some "human" cooked food/meat as well - sometimes she'll eat it - sometimes she won't. I'm currently not even feeding a prey raw model diet to Zoey either, but plan on transitioning soon, because I believe it is what's best and have come across prey raw fed dogs who "appear" so healthy and beautiful. The only think I'm scared of (Yes, I'm scared believe it or not) is the look of raw meat! LOL. I hate the way it looks and I know I'm going to be freaked out seeing Zoey tearing it apart and in my house on the ground. Who knows if it will work for Zoey or not, but I'm willing to try it and give it a shot.

I have a question. If parasite cysts are present in raw meat (and they can be) and dogs can process this just fine b/c that is how they are made, then why do dogs still get worms?

Do you have studies that show that raw fed dogs get worms and more so than different fed dogs? All foods can contain parasite cysts even cooked food! Dogs on kibble and home-cooked get worms... It's my believe that is usually an underlying condition in these dogs and that's why they are more prone to getting worms and/or bacteria.

[Melcakes]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Which veterinary nutritionists (board certified) go either way and which vet schools? They may help owners figure out what they are trying to feed. I don't know of any that recommend it, but would like to know if there are.

Also, that study you posted, do you have a link?

And after two days of talking about raw, I still feel like no questions have been answered for me... But maybe I'm missing it.

Yes. I think you are missing it but that's just me. List your questions you have and I'll try my best to answer them. I might not be able to answer all of them, but I think I can do a pretty good job. Here are some vet nutritionists that highly recommend raw that pop into my head. You can read about them and their background online.

Dr. T.J. Dunn
Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins
Dr. Francis M. Pottenger
Dr. Alfred Plechner
Dr. William Pollak
Dr. Marty Goldstein
Animal nutrition expert Dr. Pat McKay
Dr. Alicia McWatters
Dr. Charles E Loops

There's a ton and vet schools as well. I have to run out, but will provide more later and I will find the study you're interested in and provide the link later for you too.

[Ellie May]

The influence of feeding and maintenance system on... [Pol J Vet Sci. 2002] - PubMed result
Merck Veterinary Manual

Having a hard time pulling up everything by Google alone. But it does happen, yes. So then every dog that needs deworming has an underlying health issue?

[Ellie May]

Thank you for the list. Those nutritionists aren't board certified. That, of course, doesn't mean they aren't great at what they do, but any vet can call themselves a nutrition expert.

Cooking meat greatly reduces the chances of a parasite problem. I suppose unless the meat is rare...

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

Thank you for the list. Those nutritionists aren't board certified. That, of course, doesn't mean they aren't great at what they do, but any vet can call themselves a nutrition expert.

Cooking meat greatly reduces the chances of a parasite problem. I suppose unless the meat is rare...

I know that in the human world, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist. My prof in the nutrition class I took was a board certified dietitian, and she taught us many things from reading labels to who to seek out if we wanted tailored help. A nutritionist is not one that spent time getting a degree. A good comparison is an ethical breeder to a byb. An ethical breeder is like the dietitian, they put in the time first before diving in and giving advice. A nutritionist is more like a byb, it doesn't matter how long they've been doing what they're doing, the foundation of what they're doing is the best.

At least that's what I was taught. Anywho... I didn't know there were also quacks in the dog field. Is there a thing as a certified dog dietitian/nutritionist?

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by pawever Yorkie

concerns regarding bacteria,salmonella... etc?
Dogs share 98~99% same DNA code and if that's the case, whouldn't it be better for them to have simular diet as wolves which is carnivore.
I'm so confused...

"The DNA sequence divergence between grey wolves and dogs is only 1.8%, as opposed to over 4% between grey wolves, Ethiopian wolves and coyotes." (Mech, L. David; Boitani, Luigi (2003). Wolves: Behaviour, Ecology and Conservation. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 0226516962)

From Wiki.

[Ellie May]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I know that in the human world, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist. My prof in the nutrition class I took was a board certified dietitian, and she taught us many things from reading labels to who to seek out if we wanted tailored help. A nutritionist is not one that spent time getting a degree. A good comparison is an ethical breeder to a byb. An ethical breeder is like the dietitian, they put in the time first before diving in and giving advice. A nutritionist is more like a byb, it doesn't matter how long they've been doing what they're doing, the foundation of what they're doing is the best.

At least that's what I was taught. Anywho... I didn't know there were also quacks in the dog field. Is there a thing as a certified dog dietitian/nutritionist?

For dogs, nutritionist is almost always used instead of dietitian. The only ones that really are going to stand out to vets nation wide as a whole are the board certified veterinary nutritionists (the ones with a doctorate of veterinary medicine and other grad school work...masters, PhD, etc.). These pepole are Diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition. I wouldn't say they are without a doubt always right and everyone else is wrong, but they are the ones that have put the time in (in school, research) and we can be sure they have a certain level of knowledge on the subject.