To Test Puppies Think About It

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by Brooklynn

First let me say I'm so so very sorry with the loss of Teaser :*( My prayers and condolences are with you!

Now, myself as a breeder I just make sure my adults that are going to be bred are the ones tested completely! I, myself, would never BAT a puppy before 6 months of age. I do have a health guarantee for liver shunt and other genetic health issues except for LP (which is for 1 year with it being a grade 4 and not from injury) for 3 years and I stand behind my breeding program. If a puppy buyer wants BAT's run I strongly suggest it being done at 6 months of age and not before.
With this being said I hope it will help in some way and my prayers are certainly with you!

Donna Bird
Brooklynn's Yorkshire Terriers

My condolences, as well! How heartbreaking.

I agree with Donna. I've heard that with BAT testing, you just don't do with before 6 months of age. Your contract should cover 1 year guarantee (minimum) and the new owners should have the testing done (around 6 months of age)...unless you plan on keeping the pups longer than 6 months.

[mypreciouspups]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

My condolences, as well! How heartbreaking.

I agree with Donna. I've heard that with BAT testing, you just don't do with before 6 months of age. Your contract should cover 1 year guarantee (minimum) and the new owners should have the testing done (around 6 months of age)...unless you plan on keeping the pups longer than 6 months.

The problem is.. there are many people who want their baby sooner then the 6 months.. and there are so many many people that although they do not breed seem to jump in on the threads of new people looking at a new baby yorkie.. they turn these people and they then feel this is what it is and how it is to be done.. many not knowing what a breeder goes through.. has never sat in our life. the heartbreak, the whelping the no sleep.. and they also seem to be talking of stories that their puppies are not coming from a yt member who cares and supports their babies long after they leave their homes..I also do not see those people posting on this thread.. but make a new thread looking for a new yorkie puppy.. or just start to watch...anne
anne

[KYBLUE]

to all hoping for the necropy result's this week

[jencar98]

Rose, I'm so sorry for your loss of Teaser. My heart breaks for you, especially knowing you were trying to do the right thing when this horrific thing happened.

Having said that I do also have to comment though on testing puppies in general, after several on this thread have come out screaming about not testing and being "pressured" into testing. I too, would not test young puppies under 2lbs, and would feel unsettled about blood being drawn for any test, from the jugular vein of any yorkie, even though I know it has to be done in some cases.

I do wonder how much of any injury during this procedure has to do with the competence of the vet. Last fall Ruby had blood drawn this way and ended up with an abscess that almost killed her. I changed vets over this.

Still yet, with the incidence of so many sick yorkies (even a few from breeders right here on YT) you can't really blame people for wanting to make certain they are getting a healthy dog. And, with so many yorkies tested this way without any complications, one has to think for the most part that testing is safe......not without risks, but generally safe....just like many medical procedures. Afterall, this procedure is done hundreds of times every day and we don't hear about hundreds that died from testing.

And for those who think your health guarantee should be enough, that's good but there are many who don't stand behind their guarantee when problems with a sick pup arise. I've seen this happen too many times (even on YT). So those that keep talking about non-breeders not "walking the walk", etc. I would say there are just as many heartbroken yorkie owners out there who purchased sick dogs and they don't want to walk that walk again.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss and don't want to come across as harsh, I would never want to hurt you that way.

[belindaY]

Some posters who have been very "passionate" about demanding that young puppies be tested are conspicously absent on this thread. And, I recognize at least one person on here who appears to have changed her position on testing in the past couple of days. Rose, maybe your puppy's mission in life was to create this thread and the rest of us are charged with keeping it going. This site is a great place to make friends, have fun, and pick up useful advice, but we must keep in mind that a little knowledge can be dangerous.

[NanaDtreasures]

[QUOTE=jencar98;2068319]And for those who think your health guarantee should be enough, that's good but there are many who don't stand behind their guarantee when problems with a sick pup arise. I've seen this happen too many times (even on YT). So those that keep talking about non-breeders not "walking the walk", etc. I would say there are just as many heartbroken yorkie owners out there who purchased sick dogs and they don't want to walk that walk again.

QUOTE]

I wish you could walk in OUR shoes....
The breeding pairs SHOULD be tested
But there is NO reason in my opinion to test puppies at such a young age
Unless there is reason to suspect that this may be the issue....
If the adults have been tested, chances are the puppy is healthy
WHY chance putting a little pup thru this when there are no indications that there is a problem.
Yes, theres a risk of health defects in a puppy.

Yes even in humans,theres a risk of health defects.
How about if it would be required that all pregnant women have amniocentesis?
Well you may lose the baby...BUT thats the risk
Not worth that risk to many....... I can assure you
I know of too many women who worried themselves to death about doing the "right thing" even when a genetic factor was there.
To some...it is not worth that risk when most are perfectly healthy babys

But to be TOLD to "do the right thing"
Sometimes we take that risk....
Then lose puppies...and other puppies almost die...huge vet bills

No one can imagine how attached we get to these little guys.
We love them. Most of us cry when they leave.
To have one die hurts us so bad....but to have one die because of a test that really doesn't always show for sure this early....and most of the puppies are fine if the parents test fine , Its devastating.
Even if they dont die...It hurts them bad...takes them so long to recoup from...
Its just not worth the risk..

[jencar98]

[quote=NanaDtreasures;2068391]

Originally Posted by jencar98

And for those who think your health guarantee should be enough, that's good but there are many who don't stand behind their guarantee when problems with a sick pup arise. I've seen this happen too many times (even on YT). So those that keep talking about non-breeders not "walking the walk", etc. I would say there are just as many heartbroken yorkie owners out there who purchased sick dogs and they don't want to walk that walk again.

QUOTE]

I wish you could walk in OUR shoes....
The breeding pairs SHOULD be tested
But there is NO reason in my opinion to test puppies at such a young age
Unless there is reason to suspect that this may be the issue....
If the adults have been tested, chances are the puppy is healthy
WHY chance putting a little pup thru this when there are no indications that there is a problem.
Yes, theres a risk of health defects in a puppy.

Yes even in humans,theres a risk of health defects.
How about if it would be required that all pregnant women have amniocentesis?
Well you may lose the baby...BUT thats the risk
Not worth that risk to many....... I can assure you
I know of too many women who worried themselves to death about doing the "right thing" even when a genetic factor was there.
To some...it is not worth that risk when most are perfectly healthy babys

But to be TOLD to "do the right thing"
Sometimes we take that risk....
Then lose puppies...and other puppies almost die...huge vet bills

No one can imagine how attached we get to these little guys.
We love them. Most of us cry when they leave.
To have one die hurts us so bad....but to have one die because of a test that really doesn't always show for sure this early....and most of the puppies are fine if the parents test fine , Its devastating.
Even if they dont die...It hurts them bad...takes them so long to recoup from...
Its just not worth the risk..

I don't think that I have to "walk in your (breeder's)shoes" to know the devastation of losing someone (and I include dogs)that you love and to have sympathy for others that have lost. And, I do understand how attached you get to your babies, I would expect nothing less from a caring breeder.

Consider your statement about testing "all pregnant women"; I believe currently, testing is not recommended unless it is a "high-risk" pregnancy...which is the way it should be. And, with yorkies being ONE of the breeds that are "high-risk" for LS, would it not stand to reason that a potential owner would want to avoid LS if possible. I'm not saying to test all young puppies either, so don't get me wrong on that.....just that it's not wrong, if a breeder chooses to do so with puppies at 16 weeks and a healthy weight.

I guess more than anything, I would say for potential owners to KNOW YOUR BREEDER and for BREEDERS TO KNOW THEIR LINES.....and be ready to stand behind your puppies if a problem arises.

It seems as if this thread is one of those "us" against "them" threads and that is a shame because ultimately we all want the same thing - a healthy yorkie. And, IMO, if it weren't for bad breeders selling so many unhealthy dogs this conversation wouldn't have to take place.

[KathyinCali]

My heart is breaking for your loss

[KYBLUE]

OK LADIES LET'S ALL BE NICE HERE THIS IS A LEARNING THREAD

that being said i do agree NO ONE can feel what i am feeling right now i feel as if i caused teaser's death by quote un quote doing the right thing
even with parent's being tested and ok i know it can show back up

i feel you must weigh the risk a puppy of 2 pounds they take 3cc of blood
so what is the ratio that has been taken when they only have a 10%
blood volume that they can spare? without causing death and to beat all the test is very inconclusive and to date my vet bill is well over 2000


scary thought my teaser gum's were solid white his sugar would not even reg
was his brain starved for blood if he had lived would there have been brain damage did they nick a artery no one know's for sure until necropsy come's in

our open mouthed screaming non breeder;s screaming pushed this issue
so i thought why not let's make sure my next generation is sound
plus i would never want anyone to hurt from a sick pup that is not my objective with my breeding program

well with that being said where are these screaming people why have they not come forth on this thread maybe there info is wrong! maybe there education need's to be rethought

i have alway's strived to make my breeding program sound and do the right thing

how many have ofa'd there dog's this goes way past just ls

there are many health issue's a yorkie has and yes they come to light here on yt but i never imagined in my wildest dreams teaser would die from a routine blood draw and i have seen his little face everyday since and i cry everyday because he died without a good cause other than do the right thing

well i can now beg to differ and everyone even new pet owners should be aware of the danger's of this procedure i wonder what are the statics and how many have actually died with the vet blaming another cause
how many have has an necropsy done to know why

it can cause blood clot's nick's to arteries to much blood being taken with a 14 day turn around for recoup on a tiny baby just to much in my book and i have alway's backed up my warranty and if no one ever want's to buy a pup from me again because i will not test a pup so be it
i have walked the walk and watched a small puppy suffer badly you will not know the horror i have experienced until you walk it

much less what this little pup felt after being so healthy and happy

it is a good thing they really don't understand because i just could not have lived with what i did if they could
there is alway's to sides of the fence and there will alway's be different opinion's but please take heed it could be you who next walk's in my shoe's
who caves in to the pressure of test test talk to your vet of the danger's of drawing from the jugular
make sure they are good at what they do
if you could only read some of the emails i have received on this subject and how many have had and adult go down much less a pup you would really be surprised

this is not saying don't do it
this is saying i will now make my choices without caving in to pressure
and do what is right for my babies

and to those of you who have babies that are suffering with ls i am so very sorry for your pain but this is just one group of people and one breed of dog
this issue's go way beyond just the yorkie

please do not judge me i am very angry that a pup had to die

is this why dr center's say's do not test under 2 pound or six months


Serum Bile Acids are also helpful in the making a more definitive overall picture in diagnosing the presence of a Liver Shunt and is usually taken when the blood work is indicative there is a shunt present. It is possible to test the Bile Acids in young puppies. However, unless the puppy is showing apparent signs of PSS a Bile Acid Test can throw false readings. It is recommended an apparently healthy puppy be a minimum of two pounds and 6 to 9 months old to test the Bile Acids accurately.
so if this is her recommendation why are other's screaming test puppies

so please enlighten me how do you give puppy buyer's what they want
how do we as breeder's please everyone
i just do not think it can be done

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by jencar98

Rose, I'm so sorry for your loss of Teaser. My heart breaks for you, especially knowing you were trying to do the right thing when this horrific thing happened.

Having said that I do also have to comment though on testing puppies in general, after several on this thread have come out screaming about not testing and being "pressured" into testing. I too, would not test young puppies under 2lbs, and would feel unsettled about blood being drawn for any test, from the jugular vein of any yorkie, even though I know it has to be done in some cases.

I do wonder how much of any injury during this procedure has to do with the competence of the vet. Last fall Ruby had blood drawn this way and ended up with an abscess that almost killed her. I changed vets over this.

Still yet, with the incidence of so many sick yorkies (even a few from breeders right here on YT) you can't really blame people for wanting to make certain they are getting a healthy dog. And, with so many yorkies tested this way without any complications, one has to think for the most part that testing is safe......not without risks, but generally safe....just like many medical procedures. Afterall, this procedure is done hundreds of times every day and we don't hear about hundreds that died from testing.

And for those who think your health guarantee should be enough, that's good but there are many who don't stand behind their guarantee when problems with a sick pup arise. I've seen this happen too many times (even on YT). So those that keep talking about non-breeders not "walking the walk", etc. I would say there are just as many heartbroken yorkie owners out there who purchased sick dogs and they don't want to walk that walk again.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss and don't want to come across as harsh, I would never want to hurt you that way.

This is so true...
Yorkies are very high-risk at having congenital liver shunts...

We all want the same thing...A healthy puppy....You are right that many, many puppies have had blood drawn without any complications. My yorkie was very sick when he was a pup...Under 2 lbs and had to have blood drawn. Everything went fine for him.
I definitely believe that sick pups should be tested...If it is an apparently healthy puppy that has NEVER shown signs of pickiness or lethargy or hypoglycemia, etc. then I think if the new owner trusts the breeder and the breeder has it in the contract that they will either pay for the BAT or the guarantee is solid, then it may be okay not to test the puppy until 6 months of age, as I stated earlier....

I want to share a story with you all...
If my yorkie had been tested, they would have known he had liver problems when he was a pup, and I would have known that I needed to feed him special food and put him on meds...
I'll tell you what happened. He got very sick one night as a puppy, and we rushed him to the Emergency Vet. They said they needed to draw blood, so they did, and many of his numbers were off....ALB was low, ALT was high, etc, etc.

I suspected liver shunt, but the vet told me that it was impossible for him to have a liver shunt because he was a puppy!! Can you believe this??? She said that we would not see liver problems in a puppy that age.....She said she did not see any reason at all to bile acid test, and the cause for his problems was simply a terrible infection, coccidia, and hypoglycemia(which was actually being caused by his liver problems). She said that because of these reasons and these reasons only, he would not make it through the night....
He did, and we took matters into our own hands, cooked for him, etc. etc. and he seemed to get a little better. He had occassional times of lethargy, which I attributed to just being lazy some days, and pickiness almost all the time, unless we homecooked or gave him specific kinds of baby food, but I was told by the vets that yorkies are just picky dogs. All in all, he seemed much better.

A few months later, he got his first UTI, took him in, gave him antibiotics, and then a month or two later, he got another UTI...Blood in urine and everything. Again, they said UTI. At that point, I said, I don't care what the vets said, he is having a bile acid test....I set up an appointment to have it done, and the Sunday before his BAT, he had a seizure out of the absolute blue...We rushed him to his vet, and they got the seizures to stop, they did bloodwork and scheduled him for a BAT, and they found that his numbers were through the roof...

He had very bad liver problems...If I had confirmed this when he was a puppy, and they would have done the BAT and the further tests at THAT time that I wanted done, I could have prevented the seizures that started happening...I could have prevented the tons of stones that he would pass in one day. 20+ stones he would pass in just one day.

Early intervention is important....Although we thought he had gotten better, and every vet we took him to said he was fine from the looks of him, he was NOT fine, he was not okay...

I could have prevented a lot of the things that he had to go through with a simple test that should have been done when he was a pup....

Just as we have to understand breeders' positions, I hope you all can understand why buyers, particularly those who have gone through very traumatic situations with our babies feel the way we do...Pickiness, UTI, tiredness, hypoglycemia are all symptoms if liver problems and should not be ignored....I believe these puppies should be tested. If ALL is well, then they can wait a little longer.



I am very sorry for your loss

[Yorkieluv]

Originally Posted by KYBLUE

so please enlighten me how do you give puppy buyer's what they want
how do we as breeder's please everyone
i just do not think it can be done

Don't feel that way

It's impossible to please everyone, and those are the fact of life, unfortunately. BUT if it were me buying a puppy from someone who refuses to bile acid test, I would want to have full confidence in the breeder, and I would want the breeder to be educated about yorkies, congenital problems, liver shunt and bile acid testing. I would also want the contract to cover liver shunt, and I don't think it's fair for breeders to replace puppies. People fall in love with their puppies, and I don't think they should have to return a sick pup to get a replacement. I would much rather have a refund of some sort than to return my baby. In fact, I would never return my baby.

Again, I am sorry for your loss...

[KYBLUE]

Originally Posted by Yorkieluv

This is so true...
Yorkies are very high-risk at having congenital liver shunts...

We all want the same thing...A healthy puppy....You are right that many, many puppies have had blood drawn without any complications. My yorkie was very sick when he was a pup...Under 2 lbs and had to have blood drawn. Everything went fine for him.
I definitely believe that sick pups should be tested...If it is an apparently healthy puppy that has NEVER shown signs of pickiness or lethargy or hypoglycemia, etc. then I think if the new owner trusts the breeder and the breeder has it in the contract that they will either pay for the BAT or the guarantee is solid, then it may be okay not to test the puppy until 6 months of age, as I stated earlier....

I want to share a story with you all...
If my yorkie had been tested, they would have known he had liver problems when he was a pup, and I would have known that I needed to feed him special food and put him on meds...
I'll tell you what happened. He got very sick one night as a puppy, and we rushed him to the Emergency Vet. They said they needed to draw blood, so they did, and many of his numbers were off....ALB was low, ALT was high, etc, etc.

I suspected liver shunt, but the vet told me that it was impossible for him to have a liver shunt because he was a puppy!! Can you believe this??? She said that we would not see liver problems in a puppy that age.....She said she did not see any reason at all to bile acid test, and the cause for his problems was simply a terrible infection, coccidia, and hypoglycemia(which was actually being caused by his liver problems). She said that because of these reasons and these reasons only, he would not make it through the night....
He did, and we took matters into our own hands, cooked for him, etc. etc. and he seemed to get a little better. He had occassional times of lethargy, which I attributed to just being lazy some days, and pickiness almost all the time, unless we homecooked or gave him specific kinds of baby food, but I was told by the vets that yorkies are just picky dogs. All in all, he seemed much better.

A few months later, he got his first UTI, took him in, gave him antibiotics, and then a month or two later, he got another UTI...Blood in urine and everything. Again, they said UTI. At that point, I said, I don't care what the vets said, he is having a bile acid test....I set up an appointment to have it done, and the Sunday before his BAT, he had a seizure out of the absolute blue...We rushed him to his vet, and they got the seizures to stop, they did bloodwork and scheduled him for a BAT, and they found that his numbers were through the roof...

He had very bad liver problems...If I had confirmed this when he was a puppy, and they would have done the BAT and the further tests at THAT time that I wanted done, I could have prevented the seizures that started happening...I could have prevented the tons of stones that he would pass in one day. 20+ stones he would pass in just one day.

Early intervention is important....Although we thought he had gotten better, and every vet we took him to said he was fine from the looks of him, he was NOT fine, he was not okay...

I could have prevented a lot of the things that he had to go through with a simple test that should have been done when he was a pup....

Just as we have to understand breeders' positions, I hope you all can understand why buyers, particularly those who have gone through very traumatic situations with our babies feel the way we do...Pickiness, UTI, tiredness, hypoglycemia are all symptoms if liver problems and should not be ignored....I believe these puppies should be tested. If ALL is well, then they can wait a little longer.



I am very sorry for your loss

i agree with the testing but how many want to wait for a puppy that is 16 to 24 week's not many unless we all hold our pups until 6 months to test if we follow dr centers if you test under that you run a risk of the test being wrong and ls could still show but there will alway's be the breeder's that let them go at 8 week's 10 week's etc so how do we win with the buyer's that want a little baby to cuddle and still test? and if we are the one's who hold out and keep longer and do the testing and back up our warranty's
we are still put into the category and blamed because we are a group called breeder's

[KYBLUE]

this was a test preformed on drawing blood on dog and puppies


(′äl·ə′gē·mē·ə)
(medicine) A state in which the total blood volume is reduced.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Summary A standardized hemorrhagic shock was produced in 42 mongrel puppies (1147±496 g) and 13 adult dogs (27.0±4.0 kg) under Pentothal or Halothanenitrous oxide anesthesia. The blood volume (per kg body weight) given off was the same in both groups.
With the puppies the initial blood loss was 34.5 ml/kg±9.7 ml/kg and the maximal blood loss 41.5±11.0 ml/kg. The corresponding values in the group of adult dogs were 32.0±7.0 ml/kg and 45.7±9.3 ml/kg (>0.05).
Oligemia was tolerated by the puppies for 87.0±49.1 minutes and by the adult dogs for 223±124 minutes (p<0.001). Only one puppy survived longer than 48 hours. The others died after an average of 137±132 minutes. Of the adult dogs three survived. The others died after an average time of 190±116 minutes.
Puppies tolerate the controlled hypotension of 40 mm Hg less well than adult dogs.
The heart rate of the puppies decreased with the withdrawal of blood and remained low during the entire period of oligemia. In the grown-up dogs, the heart rate continuously rose to more than 210 beats/min.
During hypotension the rectal temperature of the puppies dropped from 37.8 °C to 35.3 °C, whereas it remained practically unchanged in the adult dogs.
In whelps the hematocrit decreased from 25% to 18% during bleeding and remained low during the entire period of oligemia. In the grown up dogs, the temporary and minor drop in hematocrit was noted.
During blood withdrawal cardiac output decreased from 200 ml/kg·min to 60 ml/kg·min in the puppies and from 120 ml/kg·min to 35 ml/kg·min in the adult dogs, i.e. to 30% of control in both groups. Subsequent reinfusion caused cardiac output to return to but 55% of the starting value in the puppies and to more than 77% in the adult animals. A significant correlation between the renewed rise of cardiac output and survival time existed in the puppies.
Erythrocyte flow (cardiac output·hematocrit) per kg body weight prior to bleeding and during the hypotensive phase was equal in both groups.
In both groups stroke volume dropped initially to 30 to 35% of control value. During oligemia stroke volume rose to 60% in the puppies but decreased to 28% in the adult dogs.
During the oligemic phase, the total vascular resistance increased by 20 to 40% in adult dogs compared to the control value. In the puppies this value was even higher during some phases of the oligemia. In both age groups the total peripheral resistance showed but a transient fall with the reinfusion of the blood.
Insufficient total blood flow cannot explain the reduced tolerance of hemorrhagic shock in puppies compared to adult dogs.

[NanaDtreasures]

How would you figure that a puppy from parents that are free of LS
Are at HIGH risk?
If you have a Downs Syndrome child in your family far back.
Would the OB put you thru a amnio. when you may abort spontaneously?
No..the Risk is not high enough.
While Yorkies may be a breed that is at HIGH RISK for LP.
If the parents have been tested and are clear. AND the puppy is growing well , doing well..That is NOT High Risk...I'm sorry

What many are wanting is to subject a tiny puppy that's not at HIGH RISK
Thru needless pain and suffering, and sometimes DEATH
When it just is not warranted...
PLEASE know these results are not always correct.
So again...why would we take this risk.
I know I'm not..

Originally Posted by jencar98

And, IMO, if it weren't for bad breeders selling so many unhealthy dogs this conversation wouldn't have to take place.

I agree 100% with this.
Dont buy Puppy Mill Puppies
AKA Pet stores.
Know your breeder. Make sure they ARE reputable.

[NanaDtreasures]

Originally Posted by KYBLUE

i agree with the testing but how many want to wait for a puppy that is 16 to 24 week's not many unless we all hold our pups until 6 months to test if we follow dr centers if you test under that you run a risk of the test being wrong and ls could still show but there will alway's be the breeder's that let them go at 8 week's 10 week's etc so how do we win with the buyer's that want a little baby to cuddle and still test? and if we are the one's who hold out and keep longer and do the testing and back up our warranty's
we are still put into the category and blamed because we are a group called breeder's

I know most people hate the fact that I wont let my puppies go until they're 12 weeks old...Older if they are little..
They just dont get it...Its Christmas...Its Valentines Day...bla bla bla..
Everybody has a reason why they want them NOW.
Well then go to someone else.
You're not getting one of my puppies and I feel sorry for the Puppy they do get. And hope it does well.