What does your vet say about...

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by CC's

I think just because a thing is possible to do doesn't mean at all that it should be done.
There are many things in this world that are possible but unwise.

Please don't confuse the frame, weight issue. In a decade I have never, ever personally seen a 4 pound Yorkie (in a proper weight for its structure) with a wide enough frame for ease of whelping. That doesn't take into account the after whelp issues. The 5 pound rule is a good basic description without getting into details. Of course anyone who chooses to breed a Toy breed should have studied all the fine details first.


Its my job as the care giver and the person responsible for choosing to breed, to minimize all risks involved for my breeding dogs. Yorkies are not an endangered species. Larger (5-7 pounds) Yorkies do have tinies in their litters. There isn't IMO one valid reason to increase the risk to a female by breeding her when she is so small.

Everyone lives by their own code of Ethics and these are mine. I really don't need a specialist to tell me this.

Very well said!

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

What you posted is something that you found on the internet. Am I safe to asume that you've never spoken to this person directly?

http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...light=Kustritz

You've quoted the same thing time and time again from this same person. Are you taking what this person says as what ALL specialty vets condone?

Of course NOT. Why would do that? You know me better than that! I simply posted it for what it is! A quote from a reproductive specialist bout breeding a smaller breed female to a larger breed dog. Period, nothing more.

In fact, I just posted (a very long post that maybe was too long to hold interest) that I am sure not ALL specialists agree on everything when it comes to these sensitive issues. Sowm may assess the frame and others may just look at weight, I don't know.

I posted it originally when everyone was arguing that the reason it was risky to breed a tiny yorkie is because the puppies would grow to be too big requiring a c-section. They thought it was physically impossible. It is directly on point for that topic.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by minniemn

Socal- I am going to honor their request- it isn't very professional of me to go against their wishes at this point-

You can chose to believe me or not to believe me, it really doesn't matter.... I did what everyone here does is share the information that they have learned. You are more than welcome to open a phone book and start calling all over the states if you want to.

The receptionist stated the vets would not appreciate calls regarding the same thing, they have patients to take care of. The information they shared with me is because I called them with a pregnant female, they wanted to know her size, and a conversation occured from there.... I shared it with you all.

.

- I dont want them to think I am wanting to breed tinies, I have a good reputation with the vets here that I have seen and don't want to ruin that- not that I am going to breed again, but they are more willing to help me after hrs without extra charge, and phone consults because of the reputation I earned with them, I am not going to ruin it to satisify your curiosity... which I am sure many people here would not be willing to do... especially breeders who need and depend on vets more than the average person.

You can do some leg work also, open the phone book and start calling....

socal- I remember another converstation with you, regarding breeding tinies, where you said a vet you knew bred tinies, therefore you felt it wasn't a bad thing if a vet was willing to do it, and they had been doing it for years.

.

I have kindly asked you to simply PM the info and I wouldn't use your name (which I don't know anyway), that I would pay them for their time, and become a customer.

At least tell me the city/stae and I can find it on my own....We have been looking for someone to call for months and now we discover that a member has contact info that I assume is public and won't share. This doesn't make sense to me but I will respect your wishes.

I never said a vet I "knew" bred tinies...I said "I know of vets who breed tinies". There is a big difference and I am sorry if you misunderstood.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by CC's

I think just because a thing is possible to do doesn't mean at all that it should be done.
There are many things in this world that are possible but unwise.

Please don't confuse the frame, weight issue. In a decade I have never, ever personally seen a 4 pound Yorkie (in a proper weight for its structure) with a wide enough frame for ease of whelping. That doesn't take into account the after whelp issues. The 5 pound rule is a good basic description without getting into details. Of course anyone who chooses to breed a Toy breed should have studied all the fine details first.


Its my job as the care giver and the person responsible for choosing to breed, to minimize all risks involved for my breeding dogs. Yorkies are not an endangered species. Larger (5-7 pounds) Yorkies do have tinies in their litters. There isn't IMO one valid reason to increase the risk to a female by breeding her when she is so small.

Everyone lives by their own code of Ethics and these are mine. I really don't need a specialist to tell me this.

I appreciate your athics. YorkieRose, another well respected breeder here, posted otherwise and I was referring to heropinion on the frame issue and having seen hundreds of yorkies and realizing the differences in weight have very little to do wtih size, it makes sensse to me is all. If you have a 5 lb female with narrow hips and a 4 lb female with wider hips, it is probably safer to breed the 4 lber than the 5 lber all other things considered.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Sorry for the spelling error..."ethics" is what I emant. I didn't proof it before posting.

[red98vett]

All I can say is that after months of QUOTES from so called 'Specialists' and the ever popular 'theriogenologist' ...it is so NICE to see someone who has actually dealt with one - Brenda's word (minniemn) is enough for me.

I have a feeling she has posted the general attitude of most specialists.

I still believe tinies should not be bred. If someone loves this breed they would always make sure the mom is able to handle a pregnancy and there is a BIG difference in a 5 lb yorkie and a 3 pounder...

I really don't think a good breeder needs a specialist to tell them when a yorkie is too small - common sense and compassion should RULE.... and it's not compassionate to breed a tiny.

Kim this last sentance is only my opinion - it's not up for debate.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by red98vett

All I can say is that after months of QUOTES from so called 'Specialists' and the ever popular 'theriogenologist' ...it is so NICE to see someone who has actually dealt with one -

It almost sounds like you are "making fun" of the specialists in this area with the use of the words "so-called" and "ever popular". Why the sarcasm? These professionals attend years of post graduate school studying to care for animals. I don't understand the tone. It sounds like ridicule

I made the assumption that MOST and hopefully ALL yorkie breeders had at least consulted with a reproduction specialist before commencing a breeding program...i mean why wouldn't you? Am I wrong to assume this?

We all know that yorkies are a very risky breed to breed so breeders should be as prepared as possible and use every possible resouce available to them. I know that several breeders on here came forward and said that they use reproductive specialists after I posted about them but not all did. That surprises me but maybe it is a new specialty or something.

[JCarlson2004]

Originally Posted by red98vett

I still believe tinies should not be bred. If someone loves this breed they would always make sure the mom is able to handle a pregnancy and there is a BIG difference in a 5 lb yorkie and a 3 pounder...

I really don't think a good breeder needs a specialist to tell them when a yorkie is too small - common sense and compassion should RULE.... and it's not compassionate to breed a tiny.

I agree with you V.

[Carters Mom]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I never said a vet I "knew" bred tinies...I said "I know of vets who breed tinies". There is a big difference and I am sorry if you misunderstood.

This was your words from another post http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...light=Kustritz

I know a vet who breeds his 3 lb female and she free whelps and has no problem. He says the people who say it is wrong are just prejudiced against smaller dogs. I would like to see if the theriogenologists agree with him from a scientific point of view.

I am an educated person. I'm sure we have English teachers on the board . . . if not, I can have my English college professor look at the statement and analyze it to be sure I'm understanding it correctly.

[minniemn]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I made the assumption that MOST and hopefully ALL yorkie breeders had at least consulted with a reproduction specialist before commencing a breeding program...i mean why wouldn't you? Am I wrong to assume this?

We all know that yorkies are a very risky breed to breed so breeders should be as prepared as possible and use every possible resouce available to them. I know that several breeders on here came forward and said that they use reproductive specialists after I posted about them but not all did. That surprises me but maybe it is a new specialty or something.

I did consult a reproductive vet, but I already had her bred- but I did have my regular vet check her out, do all the tests ect- I just felt better having a specialist do an ultrasound, and answer more specific questions....

If most breeders here use a reproductive vet, then why the interest in mine?

I am not going to pm you- no offense but if you did call, they are going to know exactly how you got the information, because I don't think that this is a conversation they have daily- generally people who breed have enough common sense to check out their dogs to make sure they are able to carry and deliver- those that don't, don't care about the dogs are breeding too small of dogs and won't fork out the extra money it costs to have a specialist.

You would benifit more from making an apt with a specialist in your area, to talk to them and get their advice- you can report it here or not, it doesn't matter to me- I believe what I was told, mostly because I do not agree with breeding tinies in the first place, which until this forum I thought no one would do that to begin with....

Make an apt with one in your area- that is my best advice.

Now, just so everyone knows, if I see a post from someone from mn wanting to breed- I will give them the information- the vet here is a great one and highly recomended.

at the same time, I am feeling like it was better when I just stoped in once and awhile and read, and didn't post.... I posted what I was told and feel I should of just kept my mouth shut, I said I would call and see if they would allow me to post their information- they said no (which most people would abide to, if they had a web site I would post it, because that means they want their information out there on the web for anyone to contact them) - which in a way I am glad, because honestly they don't need someone calling with these questions, and possibly arguing why it is fine to breed tinies (that is the feeling I am getting)

If you want your questioned answered socal.... call a vet in your area for a consult- I am sure they would be willing to help you.... I am not willing to. I also put up the number for the place that female vet is from that you keep quoting.

Someone already stated that they don't need a professional to tell them it is wrong, they have their morals and values that already do that... I agree.

[minniemn]

Originally Posted by Carters Mom

This was your words from another post http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...light=Kustritz



I am an educated person. I'm sure we have English teachers on the board . . . if not, I can have my English college professor look at the statement and analyze it to be sure I'm understanding it correctly.

Thank you carters mom for finding that, I was sure I had read she knew a vet who bred tinies.... whew, I am not that crazy after all

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Carters Mom

This was your words from another post http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...light=Kustritz



I am an educated person. I'm sure we have English teachers on the board . . . if not, I can have my English college professor look at the statement and analyze it to be sure I'm understanding it correctly.

Sigh.....How many times do I have to explain this?

I only "know" them in the sense that I have spoken to them once or twice. So, I have corrected it to say..."I know OF some vets and theriogenologists". My current vet is not a breeder nor a theriogenologist because I am not a breeder.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by minniemn

socal- I remember another converstation with you, regarding breeding tinies, where you said a vet you knew bred tinies, therefore you felt it wasn't a bad thing if a vet was willing to do it, and they had been doing it for years.

I never said I felt it wasn't a bad thing to breed tinies and I never said "they had been doing it for years". Please do not misquote me or make statements as though I said them when I didn't.

I started asking these questions in defense of the many many breeders who come here who breed smaller yorkies and get bashed when they admit to this. I wanted to find out if it is really that bad and why?

I am not in favor of putting any dog's life at risk. If it is risky to breed at 6 lb female, it should not be done, if it is too risky at 4 lb female, it shouldn't be done, if it too risky because the dog is in poor health or has a narrow pelvis, it should not be done, but to just say, "BREEDING TINY YORKIES IS CRUEL AND THOSE WHO DO IT SHOULD ALL BE SHOT" or whatever without a reason other than "common sense" was a concern for me since I always want to know "why"?n Adn what is the definition of TINY? Soem say anything under 4 lbs and others say anything under 5 lbs. What do the specialists say?

Why is so wrong to want to know this, and why do so many of you think that because I dare to ask "why", it is assumed that I think it is okay?????

[red98vett]

No where on this site has anyone said someone be shot - except maybe over puppy Millers.

Kim - I meant no ridicule to those out there in this field at all. I said that only because the words are frequently used lately.

What I do find a little redundant is the many internet quotes. I'm all for research and a thirst for knowledge but you really have stated over and over you personally know all these people & have had MANY conversations yet can't find their contact information ?

I personally don't need to hear any proof in what you claim - I had actually believed you to a point.....but you won't offer further information... What's funny about that is now you want someone else (Brenda) here to share hers for proof in what she says ?

Why isn't someone's word good enough - she HAS dealt with a specialist and shared what they said with us.

I find it funny a vet would say people are predjudiced against small dogs (directly quoted from you).

Quote:
I know a vet who breeds his 3 lb female and she free whelps and has no problem. He says the people who say it is wrong are just prejudiced against smaller dogs. I would like to see if the theriogenologists agree with him from a scientific point of view.

Kim - you spoke those same words the other day - Is this a vet or you talking ? I'm not questioning your honesty... but I actually don't think a vet would ever make this kind of statement.

No offennse but maybe the wording needs to be a little less personal ? I feel some of your statements are leading people to believe you've really had interaction with these vets and specialists...and in reality - maybe you really haven't...If you have - I don't think one phone call here and there qualifies anyone as an expert....and you sure try very hard to sound like one

[red98vett]

Boy was THAT long - sorry - didn't mean to go on like that & Kim ...I don't mean any of that badly - but it always sounds like you have ongoing relationships with these people.... and now we're hearing differently.