Poll:Is Breeding a 3 lb and under dog considered cruel?

[rrosenberry]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Someone I know bred her 4 lb bitch to a 6+ lb stud. She had 2 puppies. The first came out easy. The second one was breeched and got stuck. They pulled for over an hour trying to get him out. I could not imagine doing that to Gracie...but would have sought out the emergency vet. Instead, they yanked and pulled this thing out of her starting around 2 in the morning. Of course the pup was dead but I just don't know how anyone could do that to the momma. So cruel. I no longer recommend her to anyone, sadly to say.

Oh that is horrible!! That poor little girl!

[JCarlson2004]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Someone I know bred her 4 lb bitch to a 6+ lb stud. She had 2 puppies. The first came out easy. The second one was breeched and got stuck. They pulled for over an hour trying to get him out. I could not imagine doing that to Gracie...but would have sought out the emergency vet. Instead, they yanked and pulled this thing out of her starting around 2 in the morning. Of course the pup was dead but I just don't know how anyone could do that to the momma. So cruel. I no longer recommend her to anyone, sadly to say.

Oh Kimberly, that is so awful. That poor mama dog must have been in such terrible pain! I feel so sorry for her.

[YorkyKids]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I do believe what the theriogenologist says however, that the pup(s) will grow to the size that is allowed in any given dogs womb and that is it. It is a scientific fact and makes sense in nature. I don't look upon this as an opinion, but rather as a scientific fact that is not subject to debate.

What she says is NOT scientific fact.....did she produce any research papers.....with NUMBERS of successes and failures......no I have not seen any. You said before you wanted to see RESEARCH on the subject of tinies....but yet you are willing to take the word of a so called specialist with no research studies to point to. I have had a dam have a ruptured uterus on a 6 pound dog......it happens....how would you expect a "tiny dog" would not have this problem.....since genetics are NOT a guarantee....those pups will grow to whatever their genetic dispostiion is. I have friends who have experienced ruptured uterus. One of them had a surviving puppy in the intestinal cavity of the dam....he grew outside the uterus.....the dam ALMOST died.....and of course was spayed.
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[txshopper73]

Yuppers. I had recommended her to a couple of people that were looking for puppies a while back but not any more. She's also the one that is planning on breeding another little girl she got from Dallas...if she makes it to 4 lbs. I'm sorry but to me, that's a tiny.

But talking to her about it is like talking to a brick wall.

[YorkyKids]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

Someone I know bred her 4 lb bitch to a 6+ lb stud. She had 2 puppies. The first came out easy. The second one was breeched and got stuck. They pulled for over an hour trying to get him out. I could not imagine doing that to Gracie...but would have sought out the emergency vet. Instead, they yanked and pulled this thing out of her starting around 2 in the morning. Of course the pup was dead but I just don't know how anyone could do that to the momma. So cruel. I no longer recommend her to anyone, sadly to say.

Sometimes a vet will remove the pup in pieces......yes cut it up in order NOT to do a c-section for a dead puppy. This is especially true if the bitch is really weak from an extended labor.....sometimes she just will not make it thru the surgery. a tradedy I hope I never see.....
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[YorkyKids]

I want to say.....yes many problems arrise with whelp no matter what size the bitch is. But larger dogs are more equiped to handle the stress of difficult pregancy or whelp. Small tiny dogs.....have almost no chance of a problem free preg. and whelp. Yes I'm SURE it happens.....she by the grace of God may have no problems at all....but I don't think this is the norm. The reason we don't hear of the fatal cases is breeders will not share that information....they really don't want you to see the failures.....preferring instead to speak of the "successes"....and always bragging while never admitting how that tiny bitch may have suffered or even died. We see so many websites PROCLAIMING.....they breed only tinies....and they HAVE so many tinies. Is anyone willing to step up and tell of the successes and failures? Anyone?

One question I would like answered.....what the heck do they do with the "normal" or "over-sized" pups....years ago breeders would "bucket" (drown in a bucket of water) those undesirable or unwanted pups....do you suppose this is being done today......to keep only the "small genes". I wonder!

Here is a list of complications during pregnancy and whelping may mean result in a life-threatening situation to the dam and/or the puppies. These can happen to any bitch....but with a tiny...her chances of survival are decreased dramaticly. One must also remember.....most vets do NOT have hands on experience with whelping bitches of any size.....must less a tiny. They may have NEVER even performed a c-section in vet school.

Pelvic canal obstruction due to fetal over-size - The bitch has failed to progress to second-stage labor (delivery of pups) after 6-8 hours of first stage labor. This is fairly common with a tiny bitch. I know of a tiny 3 pound bitch who fractured her pelvis in her attempt to deliver an oversized puppy.....her owners were shall I say completely CLUELESS....they let this girl lay in labor for over 24 hours!!

Uterine Inertia- The bitch demonstrates evidence of intense abdominal pain and symptoms indicative of shock such as pale mucus membranes, rapid and thready pulse, sudden drop in body temperature (below the 98oF associated with whelping) or collapse. This is an emergency go to a vet immediately. This is also a common happening in a tiny bitch.....her body just cannot withstand the stress of carrying pups for 60+ days and the extreme of delivery.

Pre-eclampsia/eclampsia - The bitch experiences muscle weakness, muscle-spasms, muscle-tremors, or muscle-rigidity, or seizures. This is an emergency go to a vet immediately.

Uterine torsion or rupture -The bitch is passing a heavy, persistent flow of fresh blood from the vulva. This is an emergency go to a vet immediately. Happens more than we like to think in small bitches.

Hemorrhage - The bitch is passing a heavy, persistent flow of fresh blood from the vulva. This is an emergency go to a vet immediately. A tiny bitch most likely will not survive a hemorrhage like this.

Premature Placental Separation - No pups have been whelped, but the bitch is passing thick, black-green discharge from the vulva. This happens because the uterus is just not large enough and one or more of the puppies die.....the resulting infection causes death of the bitch in many cases.

[shelbysmom]

Size sure gets a lot of attention on this board.

I believe if there is any question about what is safe or good or healthy for Yorkshire Terriers we should go to the experts.

They recommend 5lbs. for the momma right? I am going with that.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by YorkyKids

What she says is NOT scientific fact.....did she produce any research papers.....with NUMBERS of successes and failures......no I have not seen any. You said before you wanted to see RESEARCH on the subject of tinies....but yet you are willing to take the word of a so called specialist with no research studies to point to. I have had a dam have a ruptured uterus on a 6 pound dog......it happens....how would you expect a "tiny dog" would not have this problem.....since genetics are NOT a guarantee....those pups will grow to whatever their genetic dispostiion is. I have friends who have experienced ruptured uterus. One of them had a surviving puppy in the intestinal cavity of the dam....he grew outside the uterus.....the dam ALMOST died.....and of course was spayed.
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Ruptured uterus is a very serious and apparently rare complication in canine whelpings and can be life threatening for the bitch and the pup or pups.

Here is what I found on the frequency and cause of a ruptured uterus in a dog. It is very rare and there are a myriad of causes for it. This study was conducted with 337 bitches with dystocia (abnormal or difficult labor) and none experienced a ruptured uterus. Pitocin can cause a ruptured uterus. Was your friend's dog given pitocin? What size was the bitch?

This study seems to suggest that there is no evidence to prove that a smaller female has any greater chance for a ruptured uterus than a larger one.

I am learning a lot and that is what this is all about. I don't really care who "wins" this debate so to speak or who is right or wrong but to me learning about this subject is what it is all about. If someone finds a scientific study or evidence to back up the statement that it is somehow cruel to breed yorkies under 4 or 5 lbs in weight then we will all be the wiser.

Here is the link to the entire article:
http://www.vri.cz/docs/vetmed/50-2-85.pdf

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by shelbysmom

Size sure gets a lot of attention on this board.

I believe if there is any question about what is safe or good or healthy for Yorkshire Terriers we should go to the experts.

They recommend 5lbs. for the momma right? I am going with that.

Doesn't it though?

That is what I am attempting to do...find the "experts" and hear their rationale based upon scientific experimentation and knowledge, not rumor and prejudice against tinies and therefore their breeders.

I reason I raise the question instead of going with what everyone hears on the forums is that I have met experts who condone the breeding of females less than 5 lbs and some experts (vets) who breed them themselves and do so successfully, without c-sections and without any unusual complications.

These "experts" I am referring to have taken great care to insure that the dam and the sire are from a long line of small dogs, that both animals are thoroughly tested prior to breeding, that the female has the body shape and the room to properly carry a litter to full term and deliver without complications, etc.

So, I guess it would be safe to just limit breeding to 5 lbs and up if you want to be arbitrary about it, but when someone places a imit on something, it is usually for a valid and justifiable reason and that is what i am looking for. To me thay could have just as easily set the limit at 7 lbs or wherever, right?

It is risky to breed any female but what makes it inherently more risky to breed a 3 lb dog versus a 4 lb one if the male is substantially smaller and the other conditions are good? That is the answer I am looking for. I think it is appropriate to look to the theriogenologists for this information since I think they should be the experts on this based on experience and education and know all the studies that have been conducted I would think.

[PlatinumYorkies]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Doesn't it though?

That is what I am attempting to do...find the "experts" and hear their rationale based upon scientific experimentation and knowledge, not rumor and prejudice against tinies and therefore their breeders.

I reason I raise the question instead of going with what everyone hears on the forums is that I have met experts who condone the breeding of females less than 5 lbs and some experts (vets) who breed them themselves and do so successfully, without c-sections and without any unusual complications.

These "experts" I am referring to have taken great care to insure that the dam and the sire are from a long line of small dogs, that both animals are thoroughly tested prior to breeding, that the female has the body shape and the room to properly carry a litter to full term and deliver without complications, etc.

So, I guess it would be safe to just limit breeding to 5 lbs and up if you want to be arbitrary about it, but when someone places a imit on something, it is usually for a valid and justifiable reason and that is what i am looking for. To me thay could have just as easily set the limit at 7 lbs or wherever, right?

It is risky to breed any female but what makes it inherently more risky to breed a 3 lb dog versus a 4 lb one if the male is substantially smaller and the other conditions are good? That is the answer I am looking for. I think it is appropriate to look to the theriogenologists for this information since I think they should be the experts on this based on experience and education and know all the studies that have been conducted I would think.

Doing a Google search on this subject will not find experts...What it will do is find people who claim to know, but probably have never been near a pregnant dog let alone a tiny with complication's. The internet has a lot of great information, however someone can pick and choose what they want to believe to prove their point's.

[YorkyKids]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Here is what I found on the frequency and cause of a ruptured uterus in a dog. It is very rare and there are a myriad of causes for it. This study was conducted with 337 bitches with dystocia (abnormal or difficult labor) and none experienced a ruptured uterus. Pitocin can cause a ruptured uterus. Was your friend's dog given pitocin? What size was the bitch?

You know what? We were discussing "tiny" toy bitches.....I do believe. Even you asked for studies involving TINY BITCHES.....this article does not mention tiny.....or even the size of the canine at all.....except for the Schnauzer bitch....which I believe the rupture was expained.....it was from infection due to the death of THE single puppy! This is technicly called pyometra.....any bitch who is not spayed....pregnant or not can develop pyometra. A bitch with a single dead puppy may never go into spontaneous delivery....the chemical change needed to trigger labor is not there.

No my friend's dog did NOT have pitocin shots.....her uterus ruptured half-way thru pregnancy and was not detected by the vet....even tho she was dealthy ill. The bitch was 6 pounds. LARGE LITTERS or LARGE PUPPIES will rupture a uterus...it is a smooth muscle which will only expand so much. The alternative a ruptured uterus is dead puppies which can and does lead to death of bitch thru infection....

But you know what.....this discussion is so futile....I don't see that it has changed anyone's mind. Those who believe and WANT TO MAKE money on tinies will continue their current practices.....no amount of discussion will change their mind. I only know I don't feel guilty.....I have not caused the death of a tiny bitch and that in the end is all that matters to me personnally!
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[toninm]

this is too hard for me to say. I think that if you are constantly breeding yes...but if she becomes pregnant no I dont think that is wrong.

[YorkyKids]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Here is what I found on the frequency and cause of a ruptured uterus in a dog. It is very rare and there are a myriad of causes for it. This study was conducted with 337 bitches with dystocia (abnormal or difficult labor) and none experienced a ruptured uterus. Pitocin can cause a ruptured uterus. Was your friend's dog given pitocin? What size was the bitch?

This study seems to suggest that there is no evidence to prove that a smaller female has any greater chance for a ruptured uterus than a larger one.

Hey another thing! We need to make SURE we are comparing apples and oranges here.......
A quote from your med. article (some words edited out for ease but not effect)......
"An eight-year old Schnauzer bitch.....was presented at the author's veterinary teaching clinic. The first spontaneous (pregnancy)....occured at 3 years of age.....she whelped 11 puppies. In the subsequent period she came into heat twice a year.. At the age of 8 years an unwanted mating occured and term of delivery was unknown......snip.....the present pregnancy was unknown gestation length." end quote!

Now there was no way of knowing WHEN this bitch should have delivered this SINGLE puppy....she needed the chemical change to occur to enter labor. There is no way to know if this puppy was 60 days or 70 days! The pup probably just out grew it's term in the uterus......when he died.....infection did indeed set in causing the rupture of his intestines and that of the uterine wall. PYROMETRIA!!
Like I said we need to be comparing the same issues...TINY BITCHES....

This study seems to suggest that there is no evidence to prove that a smaller female has any greater chance for a ruptured uterus than a larger one.
Where did you see this in the article....did I miss it!!!
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[Midge5353]

I am still searching for studies, etc. on the topic, but just to add in my own two cents, I have read and heard that tiny moms have many risks. If the puppies grow too big, "they can plug the birth canal and an emergency trip to the vet is necessary for her to survive, let alone the pups." There are just too many risks. Her uterus can be ruptured. A C-section is almost always needed. There are still risks when breeding a bigger female, but there are sooo many more risks when breeding a tiny. I am not saying that every tiny bitch has pregnancy problems, but I am saying that there is a bigger probability that a tiny bitch will come across some sort of pregnancy complication.

These are just several things that can happen with any dog's pregnancy that tinies are more susceptible to:

-The puppies are too large for the female. She never goes into labor, the puppies die and she becomes infected by the decaying bodies.

-A puppy gets stuck. Neither your female nor you can get it out. You have to race her to the vet. The vet can't get it out either. She has to have an emergency caesarian section

[red98vett]

Wow...was this a big poll - I guess all I'll add is ....HATS OFF to those who breed & care about the welfare of the moms - We have some great breeders on this site... and I trust them when they say no way to breeding tinies.