Poll:Is Breeding a 3 lb and under dog considered cruel?

[troubletb]

If people want tinies then they just need to get an average size female in good health and breed her to a healthy very small male.. This will result in some smaller puppies.. But nothing is guaranteed! Unfortunately People will always do stupid things without thinking about the poor animal.. If we can stop just one person from breeding that tiny female then we as a whole did a good thing!
Yorkie Talk is a discusion board and this is what we do here! DISCUSS!! Lets not point fingers at anyone or get into a heated arguement.. Lets just view each others input as their point of view, no one is totally right or totally wrong!

[chrislynn5]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I have seen Mini before and I am so happy that she was rescued. She deserves to be helped. No one would condone the breeding of a malformed female who was already in fragile health. This is just terrible if that is what happened to this poor baby.

If I can ask some questions to learn more....what puppymill was she from, how much does she weigh, how many litters did she have, how old is she, did she free whelp or have c-sections? Do the vets who are caring for her actually say her malformations in her leg bones are due to too many pregnancies?

Are you her foster mom or have you spoken to her foster mom? I hope you get her...she is so cute and looks just so sweet.

Kewtee! Go for the ball, not the man!! That may just have to become my new signature line, I like it.

First off......I have not yet adopted Mini yet. She is not up for adoption yet. I have written the adoption agency and they will not write me back. She is being fostered in Texas right now. She was never bred...(Thank GOD cause of her bones!!!) She is only 7 months old right now. Her bones a deformed because of not enough room in her moms belly. Her legs were bent the whole pregnancy. I have no idea what puppymill she was from.

IF ANYONE CAN GIVE ME ADVISE ON HOW TO ADOPT PUPPYMILL RESCUSES....PLEASE PM ME. I NEED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS SO I CAN HAVE HER!!!! I HAVE WROTE THESE PEOPLE AND THEY WILL NOT CONTACT ME OR ANYTHING.

[luvdorkyyorkies]

If my young Lady has problems I promise I will let you know.
.....When you say its not safe to breed tinies its kinda like saying small humans should not breed......its really a matter of genetics and their individual physical measurements.
I am sorry I wasnt here earlier to try to snswer some very good questions. Some of the questions are really complicated and they are really ones my vet does not ask or examine. And really some of them are ????????.
My yorkies have been tested by buyers and their vets for problems. Everything from a liver bile test to a pricey cardiologist test.
Why?.........some vets due it just for weight.......I am notorious for over estimating weight by alot...........so far so good.......health was excellent.

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by chrislynn5

First off......I have not yet adopted Mini yet. She is not up for adoption yet. I have written the adoption agency and they will not write me back. She is being fostered in Texas right now. She was never bred...(Thank GOD cause of her bones!!!) She is only 7 months old right now. Her bones a deformed because of not enough room in her moms belly. Her legs were bent the whole pregnancy. I have no idea what puppymill she was from.

IF ANYONE CAN GIVE ME ADVISE ON HOW TO ADOPT PUPPYMILL RESCUSES....PLEASE PM ME. I NEED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS SO I CAN HAVE HER!!!! I HAVE WROTE THESE PEOPLE AND THEY WILL NOT CONTACT ME OR ANYTHING.

I would think someone has experience in this and I want to wish you ALL the best luck - you are a great person to be trying to adopt her ...

poor little girl - Her story was very sad.....I bet there are alot on inquiries on her and maybe that's why no one has gotten back to you yet ? It seems yorkies really do get rescued a little faster than other breeds... so if she is already taken - maybe there is another little one in your future ? It's so nice to see you wanting to adopt her...way to go !!

[YorkyKids]

Originally Posted by Midge5353

I am still searching for studies, etc. on the topic, but just to add in my own two cents, I have read and heard that tiny moms have many risks.

You know I say this with all the compassion AND respect I can muster.
What I don't understand is WHY? do we need sciencific studies to tell what is the right, compassionate and the human thing to do if we decide to breed a bitch. Why do we need to see proof that a tiny toy bitch suffers extreme hardships with pregnancy and whelp?
And the biggest question of all.....Where is the breeders heart? No amount of money can justify the breeding and suffering inflicted on the tiny bitch dogs....who's only purpose in this world should be to sit on someone's lap. They should be cherished and loved for what they are.....not what genes they "may" carry....I am sincere when I say I really just do not understand why we are having this discussion?
d
Who's 1 1/2 lb'er (yep she's an adult 15 months old)......2 lb'er.....and 3 1/2 lb'er are sitting right here at my elbow....don't blame me for this post....my emotions well up inside me when I look at these tiny bitches and think.....WHY???

PS this was not directed at you Midge! <g>

[YorkyKids]

Originally Posted by luvdorkyyorkies

If my young Lady has problems I promise I will let you know.
.....When you say its not safe to breed tinies its kinda like saying small humans should not breed......its really a matter of genetics and their individual physical measurements.
I am sorry I wasnt here earlier to try to snswer some very good questions. Some of the questions are really complicated and they are really ones my vet does not ask or examine. And really some of them are ????????.
My yorkies have been tested by buyers and their vets for problems. Everything from a liver bile test to a pricey cardiologist test.
Why?.........some vets due it just for weight.......I am notorious for over estimating weight by alot...........so far so good.......health was excellent.

When you say its not safe to breed tinies its kinda like saying small humans should not breed...... snip
What you say is not quite true....NOT a good comparison at all.....breeding a 3 pound bitch canine is not the same as a "small human".
1) a small adult female human is generally around 100 lbs more or less and give birth to a 5 to 8 lb baby.....average.
2) a tiny 3 or 3 /12 lb toy bitch is no comparison. The average size of a Yorkie puppy is 4 to 5 ozs.....muliply that by say a litter of 4. It does not take a rocket scientist to see the greater stress is on the tiny 3 lb bitch who's offspring weigh over 50% of her body weight at whelp! And consider this....Yorkie puppies generally double their weight by 10 to 12 days.....that is a considerable amount of total puppy weight for the 3 lb bitch to support with her body.....considerable!

its really a matter of genetics and their individual physical measurements. snip
BINGO!!....yep you are correct it is a matter of GENETICS. Do you KNOW every dog in her pedigree for.....oh lets say 5 generations! Because she may carry the genes of ANY one of those dogs.....large and small. Too bad we do not a DNA test to tell us.....OH YEAH....SHE'S CARRYING ALL TINY GENES.
d

[omichka]

When you say its not safe to breed tinies its kinda like saying small humans should not breed...... snip
What you say is not quite true....NOT a good comparison at all.....breeding a 3 pound bitch canine is not the same as a "small human".
1) a small adult female human is generally around 100 lbs more or less and give birth to a 5 to 8 lb baby.....average
2) a tiny 3 or 3 /12 lb toy bitch is no comparison

agree. I am a small and petit. When I had a son, I was less than 100lbs and yes, I did not have ANY problems, especially it was ONLY natural way.
But I do not agree about tiny dogs. They should NOT be breed. period

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by YorkyKids

You know I say this with all the compassion AND respect I can muster.
What I don't understand is WHY? do we need sciencific studies to tell what is the right, compassionate and the human thing to do if we decide to breed a bitch. Why do we need to see proof that a tiny toy bitch suffers extreme hardships with pregnancy and whelp?
And the biggest question of all.....Where is the breeders heart? No amount of money can justify the breeding and suffering inflicted on the tiny bitch dogs....who's only purpose in this world should be to sit on someone's lap. They should be cherished and loved for what they are.....not what genes they "may" carry....I am sincere when I say I really just do not understand why we are having this discussion?
d
Who's 1 1/2 lb'er (yep she's an adult 15 months old)......2 lb'er.....and 3 1/2 lb'er are sitting right here at my elbow....don't blame me for this post....my emotions well up inside me when I look at these tiny bitches and think.....WHY???

PS this was not directed at you Midge! <g>

Great post!

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by YorkyKids

You know I say this with all the compassion AND respect I can muster.
What I don't understand is WHY? do we need sciencific studies to tell what is the right, compassionate and the human thing to do if we decide to breed a bitch. Why do we need to see proof that a tiny toy bitch suffers extreme hardships with pregnancy and whelp?
And the biggest question of all.....Where is the breeders heart? No amount of money can justify the breeding and suffering inflicted on the tiny bitch dogs....who's only purpose in this world should be to sit on someone's lap. They should be cherished and loved for what they are.....not what genes they "may" carry....I am sincere when I say I really just do not understand why we are having this discussion?
d
Who's 1 1/2 lb'er (yep she's an adult 15 months old)......2 lb'er.....and 3 1/2 lb'er are sitting right here at my elbow....don't blame me for this post....my emotions well up inside me when I look at these tiny bitches and think.....WHY???

PS this was not directed at you Midge! <g>

WELL SAID !!!

[Midge5353]

Originally Posted by YorkyKids

You know I say this with all the compassion AND respect I can muster.
What I don't understand is WHY? do we need sciencific studies to tell what is the right, compassionate and the human thing to do if we decide to breed a bitch. Why do we need to see proof that a tiny toy bitch suffers extreme hardships with pregnancy and whelp?
And the biggest question of all.....Where is the breeders heart? No amount of money can justify the breeding and suffering inflicted on the tiny bitch dogs....who's only purpose in this world should be to sit on someone's lap. They should be cherished and loved for what they are.....not what genes they "may" carry....I am sincere when I say I really just do not understand why we are having this discussion?
d
Who's 1 1/2 lb'er (yep she's an adult 15 months old)......2 lb'er.....and 3 1/2 lb'er are sitting right here at my elbow....don't blame me for this post....my emotions well up inside me when I look at these tiny bitches and think.....WHY???

PS this was not directed at you Midge! <g>

I completely agree with you! I don't think that we need proof either! It should be deep down inside ANY compassionate person's heart to know that it is just not right to breed a tiny.

Just for the record, I posted that sentence about the searching for studies because it seems that some people involved in this debate need scientific proof, even though all the proof I need is in my heart! No offense taken!

[MeganS]

Originally Posted by Midge5353

I completely agree with you! I don't think that we need proof either! It should be deep down inside ANY compassionate person's heart to know that it is just not right to breed a tiny.

Just for the record, I posted that sentence about the searching for studies because it seems that some people involved in this debate need scientific proof, even though all the proof I need is in my heart! No offense taken!

haha, sorry that scientific proof part was funny.

And I agree with you! I don't think it needs to be proven. It is just common sense to most people!

[YorkyKids]

Originally Posted by Midge5353

Just for the record, I posted that sentence about the searching for studies because it seems that some people involved in this debate need scientific proof, even though all the proof I need is in my heart! No offense taken!

I knew that!! <bigfatGrin> I was just using you as a jumping off point for my message.....not for one second did I think you needed proof!!
d

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by YorkyKids

You know I say this with all the compassion AND respect I can muster.
What I don't understand is WHY? do we need sciencific studies to tell what is the right, compassionate and the human thing to do if we decide to breed a bitch. Why do we need to see proof that a tiny toy bitch suffers extreme hardships with pregnancy and whelp?
And the biggest question of all.....Where is the breeders heart? No amount of money can justify the breeding and suffering inflicted on the tiny bitch dogs....who's only purpose in this world should be to sit on someone's lap. They should be cherished and loved for what they are.....not what genes they "may" carry....I am sincere when I say I really just do not understand why we are having this discussion?
d
Who's 1 1/2 lb'er (yep she's an adult 15 months old)......2 lb'er.....and 3 1/2 lb'er are sitting right here at my elbow....don't blame me for this post....my emotions well up inside me when I look at these tiny bitches and think.....WHY???

PS this was not directed at you Midge! <g>

In my opinion they are ALL tiny toy bitches. The yorkie is a small toy breed so if it is okay to breed these tiny lap dogs then where do you draw the line? Is it at 5 lbs. 4 lbs or 3 lbs?

I look at any yorkies as you do your little ones and think WHY? Why would anyone do anything to risk their lives, but everyone has a different idea about what is okay and what isn't and I was just looking for those answers since this topic seems to be brought up all the time on here and I know that their are reputable breeders breeding tinies and doing it w/o complications.

I am always the first to try to convince someone considering breeding to really think long and hard and look at all of the potential difficulties and spend at least a few years studying the breed and breeding itself before even considering it. But, I would never be so bold as to say that breeding is "wrong" or "cruel" or that the people who do it are uncaring. I know this isn't true across the board. In fact , it is just the opposite. Most breeders i have met love their babies like their own children and spoil them. They suffer when the dog suffers and they spend countless hours caring for and worrying abut mamas and babies.

If we had a theriogenologist who would come on here and answer some questions it would be great but I don't have one i can ask to do that. Does anyone know one who would be willing to answer these questions from an educated point of view.

It will be helpful to follow Luvdorkiyorkies upcoming whelping with her 3.5 lber and see how that all goes since she is so generously putting herself out there in the line of fire. LOL. I just hope the members on here can refrain from negative comments and respect her because those of us who know her as a member here know how kind and compassionate she is toward her dogs.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by MeganS

haha, sorry that scientific proof part was funny.

And I agree with you! I don't think it needs to be proven. It is just common sense to most people!

Not to pick on you at all Megan...but just to throw the question out there....

What makes it common sense to be okay to breed a 5 lb yorkie but not a 4 or a 3.5 lber? Where does the common sense come from and where is the line drawn? And who drew it?

[StewiesMom]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

Not to pick on you at all Megan...but just to throw the question out there....

What makes it common sense to be okay to breed a 5 lb yorkie but not a 4 or a 3.5 lber? Where does the common sense come from and where is the line drawn? And who drew it?

I'll answer that...

Whether or not it is agreed upon, the unspoken Yorkie standard is 4-7lbs.
Studs are almost always, when bred responsibly, smaller than bitches.
Therefore, if we are trying to conceive STANDARD Yorkies, the bitch would logically be within the standard AND large enough to mate with a standard stud who is presumably (and responsibly) smaller than her.

The common sense is that if you bred a 3.5lb bitch to a... let's say... 1lb stud (do they even exist?? can the produce sperm??) chances are the puppies will not be standard.