Live Birth / whelping

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Corfield

I am interested.

I suppose the point is that I dont have to look into the source articles. I am willing to accept the many authors of the articles I posted that cite some of those studies as reasonable authorities on the subject.

One is written by a vet, the other in a book written by a vet, one by a behaviourist etc ... they are interlocking ie they support each others findings.

The people claiming otherwise here cant cite anything of any quality.

Even if they did cite something, the best we'd end up wit here - it seems to me - is that there is NO certainty that homing a puppy at 7 weeks plus is categorically incorrect, cruel, irresponsible etc.

I'd add much of this research has been around for many years - there is no excuse for people claiming expertise to have not heard of it / read it etc in forming the opinions they express here as the law on the matter. It may be the "latest" research but it isnt new by any means.

I am not the one going around lecturing potential owners or other breeders and bullying people.

I'd gotten the wrong impression I guess from the way you kept almost bullying Lovetodream88 for "scientific" sources for her statements, I thought maybe you had research data to back your own up. Thought maybe you were a stickler for actual research data - otherwise, information posted is merely someone's impressions taken from a study, without knowing if they read the entire work, understood the premise and conclusions, assessed the facts properly and passed all pertinent data on in their article written to make the point they want. And who knows what was left out in the passing? Sometimes things we might want to know!

I'm no breeder but am interested in tiny, toy dogs who sometimes don't weigh more than 1 1/2 - 2 lbs. when they leave home and go off to the great unknown, being old enough to have the very best chance at good health and success in life the breeder can manage - or why bother breeding? The proffered research seems to indicate a 12 week old pup fares better in mortality, health, learning ability and ability to settle himself and quieten than one separated earlier - all things that may literally save a dog's life when he's living with a new owner who may not be that cautious or patient with a tiny, yelping puppy who can't seem to learn fast enough.

What do you all think?

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Corfield

At best these represent some evidence to support a view that rehoming puppies at 6 weeks plus may not be optimal.

We are left with a situation where there is some evidence on both sides. Publishing some research doesnt amount to peer review it is part of that process.

The south African Studdy on GSD has only been cited 3 times (it sees) and it doesnt appear to have been reproduced anywhere despite the fact it is over 20 years old. OFC it is also talking about separation at 6 weeks not 7 or 8.

Please note that your summarized, copied article and some of the summarized studies the author referenced were from the 1960's and 1970's but the unknown author still used what he said were data from them which is apparently acceptable with you in his article. You haven't offered which of his references were peer-reviewed nor have you presented peer-reviewed studies showing 7-8 weeks is better for the pups than 12 weeks for separation from mom, though I'd like to read them.

Six weeks was the earliest separation studied in two studies - three weeks in the e-book study summary but you've missed the point of the studies altogether - that's why seeing the actual studies are so important! They all concluded that keeping a pup with the mother to age 12 weeks increased its chances at a more healthy, successful life away from mom. The longer the pup stayed with her, the better its outcome in several areas of study.

Please go ahead, present your peer-reviewed, scientific studies, showing 7-8 week old separation from mom is better for puppies for our review and discussion. We're open-minded. We all want what's truly best for the pups.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Sorry, had to get some work done. Here is the link to the Elliot & Scott vocalization study referenced on Pg. 134 in the ebook I posted a link to above. Just wanted to post the link to anyone wanting to read the actual study that purports to demonstrate that older puppies react with less emotional distress and vocalization than younger puppies in the study. Vocalizing and yelping is one thing that gets young puppies in trouble with some owners and older dogs seem to be able to deal with the distress of separation without the noise.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie Click on the link - it still works even though says "error"

Have to be a member to get citations, if that matters, though perhaps not that many in the BYB or large kennel breeding business are apt to want to cite a study that tends to argue that keeping pups with mom longer may be better for them - at least until they are old enough to handle the stressors in their new life appreciably better than a younger puppy.

[Yorkiemom1]

Thanks Jeanie for the article!! Great information!

[gemy]

Jeanie thanks I am still reading the ebook article....

[alimorgeron]

I just wanted to say that I brought my 8 week old yorkie baby home this past saturday. She is the smartest little girl ever! Since Saturday, I have taught her to sit and play with her ball. She has not even cried at night once since coming home. She has an awesome appetite and drinks LOTS of water. when I put her in her crate and she wimpers, I am working on the "quiet" command. She is even picking that up. She wakes me in the middle of the night to go potty on her pad... she is a VERY healthy and out going puppy. I feel as though, as long as you are home all day and can devote the time to your pup, then 8 weeks is fine to bring them home. My breeder is the best I know and she is 10000% reputable. She is in this puppies life while at her home and even now at her forever home. I would never buy from any other breeder just because she let's her babies go at 8 weeks. My Toodles is doing awesome and has a health check from the vet that clarifies that!! I will listen to my vet before any article or person. The vet to my pet is like my doctor to me... they know best.. just saying☺

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by alimorgeron

I just wanted to say that I brought my 8 week old yorkie baby home this past saturday. She is the smartest little girl ever! Since Saturday, I have taught her to sit and play with her ball. She has not even cried at night once since coming home. She has an awesome appetite and drinks LOTS of water. when I put her in her crate and she wimpers, I am working on the "quiet" command. She is even picking that up. She wakes me in the middle of the night to go potty on her pad... she is a VERY healthy and out going puppy. I feel as though, as long as you are home all day and can devote the time to your pup, then 8 weeks is fine to bring them home. My breeder is the best I know and she is 10000% reputable. She is in this puppies life while at her home and even now at her forever home. I would never buy from any other breeder just because she let's her babies go at 8 weeks. My Toodles is doing awesome and has a health check from the vet that clarifies that!! I will listen to my vet before any article or person. The vet to my pet is like my doctor to me... they know best.. just saying☺

The vet can not know the standard or best things for each breed so they just go with the standard of 8 weeks. In the US reputable breeders follow the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America which says 12 weeks. Generally if you find one thing that a breeder has skipped like not keeping the pups until 12 weeks you will find they have skipped other things. What health testing did your breeder do? How far back did she know the lines? I have a feeling you are very new to this breed. I understand going to a non reputable breeder when your new and hadn't done the research and didn't know any better so don't take it wrong. Reputable breeders are hard to find. Most of us joined here getting our pups from bad breeders and learned a lot when joining here. I think maybe you should read the whole thread and the articles and check out ytca.org. My pup came from a puppy mill.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by alimorgeron

I just wanted to say that I brought my 8 week old yorkie baby home this past saturday. She is the smartest little girl ever! Since Saturday, I have taught her to sit and play with her ball. She has not even cried at night once since coming home. She has an awesome appetite and drinks LOTS of water. when I put her in her crate and she wimpers, I am working on the "quiet" command. She is even picking that up. She wakes me in the middle of the night to go potty on her pad... she is a VERY healthy and out going puppy. I feel as though, as long as you are home all day and can devote the time to your pup, then 8 weeks is fine to bring them home. My breeder is the best I know and she is 10000% reputable. She is in this puppies life while at her home and even now at her forever home. I would never buy from any other breeder just because she let's her babies go at 8 weeks. My Toodles is doing awesome and has a health check from the vet that clarifies that!! I will listen to my vet before any article or person. The vet to my pet is like my doctor to me... they know best.. just saying☺

Unless you are a momma dog, you just have NO idea what you need to be doing at any given week to best enhance the emotional and mental and physical development of a puppy that has been separated from momma too early. As far as a "concerned, knowledgable breeder", how many vaccinations had your baby had when you took him home? Vaccinations given before 8 weeks are useless....effective vaccinations start at 8 weeks and are given at least 3 weeks apart..... an ethical breeder would never send an unvaccinated puppy out to a new home, unprotected from at least the core diseases.....you just care too much for your puppies to do that to them, never mind a new owner. It is such a heartbreak to lose a brand new baby, right after you get your baby home, to parvo because the breeder saved some big bucks by sending puppies out early enough so the breeder can dodge the added expense of vaccinations on her pups. Shows a great lack of interest in the puppies as well as the new owner....just saying!

[alimorgeron]

My baby had her first round of shots and dewormer before I picked her up At the right age of 8 weeks for the initial shots. She had a health Check from her vet and I have an appointment this Saturday with my vet for another health check. My breeder was very good with my puppy. She made sure all was well before I took her home. I was instructed by my breeder to NOT bring her to potty outside yet due to parvo and other problems that could arise from doing so right now. I was also advised to make sure she eats and drinks alot of water to avoid becoming hypoglycemic. That being said, this is NOT my 1st yorkie. I am well aware of complications that "could" arise even if she is 1 yrs old. I can respect everyone's concern, but I just can't respect disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks. My baby girl will be loved and taken care of just like my child, because she is just that, my child. Again, Just saying!

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by alimorgeron

My baby had her first round of shots and dewormer before I picked her up At the right age of 8 weeks for the initial shots. She had a health Check from her vet and I have an appointment this Saturday with my vet for another health check. My breeder was very good with my puppy. She made sure all was well before I took her home. I was instructed by my breeder to NOT bring her to potty outside yet due to parvo and other problems that could arise from doing so right now. I was also advised to make sure she eats and drinks alot of water to avoid becoming hypoglycemic. That being said, this is NOT my 1st yorkie. I am well aware of complications that "could" arise even if she is 1 yrs old. I can respect everyone's concern, but I just can't respect disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks. My baby girl will be loved and taken care of just like my child, because she is just that, my child. Again, Just saying!

Hopefully you will learn at lot from this board. In order to get rid of all the breeders who are not breeding right and do right by the breed we have to stop buying from them or we are doing damage to this lovely breed. I am guessing since you didn't answer my questions you don't know or your breeder didn't do those things which are big red flags. Go to a shelter, the sick section of the board and places where lots of people with dogs go and you will see what bad breeding does to this breed we have yorkies who don't look like yorkies, yorkies mixed with god knows what, and yorkies with serious terrible genetic issues. Do you how terrible and heart breaking it is to watch a dog suffer from a genetic illness or issue? Do you know the pain the dog goes through? Do you really understand how pups suffer from bad breeding?

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by alimorgeron

My baby had her first round of shots and dewormer before I picked her up At the right age of 8 weeks for the initial shots. She had a health Check from her vet and I have an appointment this Saturday with my vet for another health check. My breeder was very good with my puppy. She made sure all was well before I took her home. I was instructed by my breeder to NOT bring her to potty outside yet due to parvo and other problems that could arise from doing so right now. I was also advised to make sure she eats and drinks alot of water to avoid becoming hypoglycemic. That being said, this is NOT my 1st yorkie. I am well aware of complications that "could" arise even if she is 1 yrs old. I can respect everyone's concern, but I just can't respect disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks. My baby girl will be loved and taken care of just like my child, because she is just that, my child. Again, Just saying!

We all, I am sure, are thrilled you adore your baby girl as much as you do....that is a feeling every single one of us have, not unique to you! As far as "disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks....", well no one is feeling "anyone is less of a person" for any reason!!! There are things everyone does, especially people that sell products or sell services to other people, that many others do NOT agree with or approve of...that is called "business practices" and not "thinking anyone is less of a person". If a professional sees another professional, doing things they dont think are in the best interest of the customer, they have an obligation or responsibility to say something that at least educates, especially in a learning forum, so that people that are not knowledgable about everything dealing with that particular profession are not fooled or misled by incorrect information!!! Same thing with ANY service or product.....no disrespect, just disagreement on what is best for the consumer.

Those that believe puppies should remain with breeders 12-14 weeks old, are either well versed in breeding, whelping, care and management of those aspects, or they have researched the information available and have understood the benefits to the puppies. So the different advocates of this issue just approach the issue from different angles....we ALL adore and treasure our babies, breeders that hold onto their babies do so in spite of the extra work and the extra expense....they do it because they are convinced it is better for the puppy....our PRIMARY concern is for the benefit of the puppy, not ourselves, and there is absolutely no way a breeder that holds onto their puppies for that extra period of time could EVER be accused of anything but loving compassion and concern for, first and foremost, their puppies, and then extended to any new owner that buys from them.....going the extra mile is certainly NOT disrespect.....it is concern that the puppy gets the absolute very best start in life it can possibly get. Just cant "spin" that attention to the details, and special regard, adoration and concern for the puppy, and sincere interest in their new owner and what they are going to be facing with this new baby, into ANY form of "disrespect"!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by alimorgeron

My baby had her first round of shots and dewormer before I picked her up At the right age of 8 weeks for the initial shots. She had a health Check from her vet and I have an appointment this Saturday with my vet for another health check. My breeder was very good with my puppy. She made sure all was well before I took her home. I was instructed by my breeder to NOT bring her to potty outside yet due to parvo and other problems that could arise from doing so right now. I was also advised to make sure she eats and drinks alot of water to avoid becoming hypoglycemic. That being said, this is NOT my 1st yorkie. I am well aware of complications that "could" arise even if she is 1 yrs old. I can respect everyone's concern, but I just can't respect disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks. My baby girl will be loved and taken care of just like my child, because she is just that, my child. Again, Just saying!

Well it was just not the 8wk idea, but a lot of other questions were asked that had no answers from you. And when experienced breeder and dog fanciers question or query, they do this a lot from a) care of and for the health of the puppy and b) to provide some learning on best professional practises.
A comment to think about, as a breeder I would never send home a puppy within 72 hours of ashot being given. This way it is my responsibility and quite frankly that should ease your mind about this puppies response to the core set of vaccines. Although recent protocols are on the move again - I assume that you up on the latests AAHA and AVMA vaccination protocols ? These can be found in our library and it is good idea to print out and go to your vet with.


YorkieMom1 - makes incredibly valid points - a very well experienced breeder who understands the puppy enrichment process can do a better job with this youngster than probably 90 odd per cent of pet owners.


You may be home all day but do you know how to progress the puppies stimulations and instructional play time.


When I got my boy at 12weeks old, he already knew a halter a leash, his name, sit, come. And he was a tad under 3lbs and was the smallest thing (other than my own youngsters ) I had ever been responsible for. And toy drive had already been worked on.


So start doing some reading here - lots of fascinating research - articles in the library etc.
Stick around and enjoy what YT has to offer

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

The vet can not know the standard or best things for each breed so they just go with the standard of 8 weeks. In the US reputable breeders follow the Yorkshire Terrier Club of America which says 12 weeks. Generally if you find one thing that a breeder has skipped like not keeping the pups until 12 weeks you will find they have skipped other things. What health testing did your breeder do? How far back did she know the lines? I have a feeling you are very new to this breed. I understand going to a non reputable breeder when your new and hadn't done the research and didn't know any better so don't take it wrong. Reputable breeders are hard to find. Most of us joined here getting our pups from bad breeders and learned a lot when joining here. I think maybe you should read the whole thread and the articles and check out ytca.org. My pup came from a puppy mill.

Exactly and I think I queried a few things earlier in this thread re: this exact notion.

Originally Posted by alimorgeron

My baby had her first round of shots and dewormer before I picked her up At the right age of 8 weeks for the initial shots. She had a health Check from her vet and I have an appointment this Saturday with my vet for another health check. My breeder was very good with my puppy. She made sure all was well before I took her home. I was instructed by my breeder to NOT bring her to potty outside yet due to parvo and other problems that could arise from doing so right now. I was also advised to make sure she eats and drinks alot of water to avoid becoming hypoglycemic. That being said, this is NOT my 1st yorkie. I am well aware of complications that "could" arise even if she is 1 yrs old. I can respect everyone's concern, but I just can't respect disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks. My baby girl will be loved and taken care of just like my child, because she is just that, my child. Again, Just saying!

I got my puppy at 12 weeks and you know what my breeder told me? All of his shots are complete now until he turns one year old. Take him home, continue to socialize him and enjoy him. I didn't have to worry about him contracting a horrible disease because he was released too young. Just saying.

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

We all, I am sure, are thrilled you adore your baby girl as much as you do....that is a feeling every single one of us have, not unique to you! As far as "disrespecting someone because you feel they are less of a person for allowing a puppy to leave at 8 weeks....", well no one is feeling "anyone is less of a person" for any reason!!! There are things everyone does, especially people that sell products or sell services to other people, that many others do NOT agree with or approve of...that is called "business practices" and not "thinking anyone is less of a person". If a professional sees another professional, doing things they dont think are in the best interest of the customer, they have an obligation or responsibility to say something that at least educates, especially in a learning forum, so that people that are not knowledgable about everything dealing with that particular profession are not fooled or misled by incorrect information!!! Same thing with ANY service or product.....no disrespect, just disagreement on what is best for the consumer.

Those that believe puppies should remain with breeders 12-14 weeks old, are either well versed in breeding, whelping, care and management of those aspects, or they have researched the information available and have understood the benefits to the puppies. So the different advocates of this issue just approach the issue from different angles....we ALL adore and treasure our babies, breeders that hold onto their babies do so in spite of the extra work and the extra expense....they do it because they are convinced it is better for the puppy....our PRIMARY concern is for the benefit of the puppy, not ourselves, and there is absolutely no way a breeder that holds onto their puppies for that extra period of time could EVER be accused of anything but loving compassion and concern for, first and foremost, their puppies, and then extended to any new owner that buys from them.....going the extra mile is certainly NOT disrespect.....it is concern that the puppy gets the absolute very best start in life it can possibly get. Just cant "spin" that attention to the details, and special regard, adoration and concern for the puppy, and sincere interest in their new owner and what they are going to be facing with this new baby, into ANY form of "disrespect"!

[kreuer]

Originally Posted by alimorgeron

I just wanted to say that I brought my 8 week old yorkie baby home this past saturday. She is the smartest little girl ever! Since Saturday, I have taught her to sit and play with her ball. She has not even cried at night once since coming home. She has an awesome appetite and drinks LOTS of water. when I put her in her crate and she wimpers, I am working on the "quiet" command. She is even picking that up. She wakes me in the middle of the night to go potty on her pad... she is a VERY healthy and out going puppy. I feel as though, as long as you are home all day and can devote the time to your pup, then 8 weeks is fine to bring them home. My breeder is the best I know and she is 10000% reputable. She is in this puppies life while at her home and even now at her forever home. I would never buy from any other breeder just because she let's her babies go at 8 weeks. My Toodles is doing awesome and has a health check from the vet that clarifies that!! I will listen to my vet before any article or person. The vet to my pet is like my doctor to me... they know best.. just saying☺

I would just like to know how you know this? A lot of people who buy puppies think they are buying from a reputable breeder, but unfortunately that is not always the case. I am example of this as are many others on here that learned after the fact.

[Corfield]

No matter how much you want to twist the facts, it is the overwhelming scientific and professional view of vets and animal behaviourists that puppies are fine to go to their new homes at 8 weeks of age.

The bile being hurled at people adhering to that advice is unjustified and says a lot about the rationality and personality of those spouting it.