Live Birth / whelping

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by Corfield

Sorry.

Your own joyous observations are evidence of my position not one that dogs need or should stay with a breeder beyond 7/8 weeks.

Very few of the activities being suggested here are activities that only a breeder or the puppies litter mates or mother can do. A 6 week old is mentioned. We are not talking about 6 weeks as we all agree 6 weeks is too young.

The credentials and methods of people claiming phds etc is smoke to blow up peoples asses that are impressed by these things not the validity of the studies / claims. It is a sales pitch and people seem to be using it without a critical eye.

I once had an uncle that frowned upon more educated people than he.....he was entrenched in his own delusions he mistook for reality...however, it was simply his own reality, based on his own opinions that he so treasured.
I remain "joyous" with the researched and documented evidence of much more experienced and educated people than I. I have only been involved with the in depth study, involvement with, working and breeding Yorkies since ......lets see......1975.....maybe 1976. I certainly would not presume to have more experience or knowledge in this area than any of the scientists, vets, behavorists, animal psychologists, trainers, and of course, other ethical, respected, responsible breeders that over the years, have experienced first hand, as I have also, the benefits of Yorkie pups remaining with their mothers until 12-14 weeks. I have no idea of YOUR qualifications and expertise, just an little insight to your opinion, which DOES fly in the face of what many well known, well respected entities have published. Your own "joyous", vociferous articulations, may indeed have you personally steadfastly rigid in your conviction that Yorkies suffer no deprivation being separated from maternal tutelage and corrections received up until 14 weeks of age, however I am more apt to follow research and studies documented by much more qualified academe.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by Corfield

So you have no good evidence then and you have given up.

You can call it that if you would like.

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

[/B]

I once had an uncle that frowned upon more educated people than he.....he was entrenched in his own delusions he mistook for reality...however, it was simply his own reality, based on his own opinions that he so treasured.
I remain "joyous" with the researched and documented evidence of much more experienced and educated people than I. I have only been involved with the in depth study, involvement with, working and breeding Yorkies since ......lets see......1975.....maybe 1976. I certainly would not presume to have more experience or knowledge in this area than any of the scientists, vets, behavorists, animal psychologists, trainers, and of course, other ethical, respected, responsible breeders that over the years, have experienced first hand, as I have also, the benefits of Yorkie pups remaining with their mothers until 12-14 weeks. I have no idea of YOUR qualifications and expertise, just an little insight to your opinion, which DOES fly in the face of what many well known, well respected entities have published. Your own "joyous", vociferous articulations, may indeed have you personally steadfastly rigid in your conviction that Yorkies suffer no deprivation being separated from maternal tutelage and corrections received up until 14 weeks of age, however I am more apt to follow research and studies documented by much more qualified academe.

There is nothing in your previous post that is good evidence that puppies should stay with a breeder beyond 7-8 weeks.

Most of it is about other issues.

I am steadfast in the need to see some good quality evidence for assertions being made.

If I have missed something please spell it out to me.

[SirTeddykins]

There is a post from the past re: US vs UK puppy release standards:


http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...lease-age.html


It was inferred that most in the UK are used to seeing YT released at 8 wks but that most would have preferred that their YT was kept longer due to various issues.


My UK breeder (hate calling her that - she's a show judge) praised me for not criticizing her for keeping her puppies until 12 weeks. She had to argue the necessity to a lot of potential buyers which, ultimately, meant that she refused to release them to particular people who rejected her thoughts which were based on experience. She stated that she FELT that it was necessary to keep these dogs longer due to their small size, even at 12 weeks, which is still considerably smaller than most puppies of other breeds.


I think it is confusing when scientific evidence is requested and provided and then rejected on the basis of an opinion which infers PHds are worthless sales tactics. These contradictory requests and opinions suggest combativeness rather than a willingness to discuss.


We, as YT owners, are constantly warned by various YT organizations to not support breeders when they release puppies younger than 12 weeks. Releasing puppies before this time is generally considered to be a red flag of inexperience and greed.

[Yorkiemom1]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

There is a post from the past re: US vs UK puppy release standards:


http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/gen...lease-age.html


It was inferred that most in the UK are used to seeing YT released at 8 wks but that most would have preferred that their YT was kept longer due to various issues.


My UK breeder (hate calling her that - she's a show judge) praised me for not criticizing her for keeping her puppies until 12 weeks. She had to argue the necessity to a lot of potential buyers which, ultimately, meant that she refused to release them to particular people who rejected her thoughts which were based on experience. She stated that she FELT that it was necessary to keep these dogs longer due to their small size, even at 12 weeks, which is still considerably smaller than most puppies of other breeds.


I think it is confusing when scientific evidence is requested and provided and then rejected on the basis of an opinion which infers PHds are worthless sales tactics. These contradictory requests and opinions suggest combativeness rather than a willingness to discuss.


We, as YT owners, are constantly warned by various YT organizations to not support breeders when they release puppies younger than 12 weeks. Releasing puppies before this time is generally considered to be a red flag of inexperience and greed.

I always wonder when such resistance to consider the validity of scientific evidence and evidenced based outcomes are sumarily dismissed, what exactly are the qualifications/experience of the person/persons throwing their undocumented opinions out for acceptance by others. I have found often times they are just blowing smoke up people's a$$es! "If you cant dazzle them with brillance, baffle them with bull$hit".

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Corfield

We generally let them go at 7.5 to 8 weeks onwards if they are going to experienced dog owner homes.

There is real controversy as to when is the best time but we are swayed by the fact that by 7.5 weeks the puppies are weened and very well socialised with our other dogs, environment and mum. The sooner they get to their homes the sooner they get to socialise with their "family" before the fear imprint period ends around 12-16 weeks.

There are guide and police dog trainers that prefer a puppy at seven weeks to 12 precisely because being chewed to pieces in a litter for an extra few weeks is a lot less productive that the work they can do with a younger puppy that's been well socialised in the litter to seven weeks and learnt more than enough from its litter mates.

Now if you are dealing with an inexperienced owner with young children it is a different kettle of fish.

You have to try and find the right balance and i am not going to bad mouth people that take the view that holding onto puppies to 12 weeks is a bad thing - it isn't.

you have to bear in mind that the first 4 weeks of having a litter are not anything like the fun to be had wit ha litter that's 4-12 weeks (poo aside!) There are selfish motives at play to keeping a litter beyond 8 weeks and of course people breeding for show may want to hang on to [puppies in order to assess which they wish to keep or which they want to try sell for a higher price because of their show potential.

So swings and roundabouts.

If you can't have a sensible discussion with the breeder about the right age to home a puppy you are certainly not talking to a good breeder that knows their stuff.

Lot of emotion in dog breeding and buying. Logic and science don't always win out ...

Originally Posted by Corfield

]

Still lacking any scientific study here.

People claiming to be using scientific methods to sell a book isnr good evidence

Breeders dont get the experience of knowing what happens to their puppies in a scientifically controlled way by releasing them at x weeks and collecting bits and pieces of feedback from some of their owners. If they keep the dogs themselves thats not valid evidence either.


Again I reiterate that IF toy breeds were different from large breeds studies and professional opinion offered about dogs would need to make that distinction in their recommendations, in order to be quality advice. They dont on the issue of when to home a puppy. They do on other matters such as when different breeds reach adolescence, breeding age etc. There doesnt seem to be a widely held professional opinion that toy breeds need special treatment when it comes to the age they can leave the breeder.

Can you share the scientific study(ies) that conclude puppies should stay with the breeder for 7 - 8 + weeks? I've always wondered what discipline of scientists and/or which veterinarians organized and charted the study(ies) and what scientific trial(s) decided basic parameters for separating puppies from mom and how they scientifically arrived at the decision.

[Corfield]

Someones opinion isnt a scientific study no matter what their experience or qualifications. If experts use words like "can, might, feel, may" etc we can;t interpret those as "always, do, " etc. the uncertainty needs to be respected far more than any implication of certainty.

Sceintific studies are peer reviewed before becoming accepted scientific theory.

Someone isnt right becasue they are a breeder of many years and feel a certain way but I agree their experience can't simply be dismissed out of hand.

Some more to mull over.. paras 13,14


Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary?
David Appleby

Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

"What practical applications do we have that bear out the research? Guide Dogs for the Blind, who, until 1956, used to rely on the donation of adult dogs which they took on approval to maintain their training stock. The success rate of these dogs fluctuated between 9 and 11 percent and it was recognised that this could be improved if the association could supervise the rearing of puppies. These were purchased and placed in private homes at between ten and twelve weeks old or even later. Things improved, but the results were not good enough. It was Derek Freeman, who pushed to have puppies placed in private homes at an earlier age to optimise socialisation and habituation during the critical development period. Derek had a strong belief in Scott and Fuller’s work and importance of early socialisation and habituation in the production of dogs that were best able to survive and perform in the world at large.

Derek found that six weeks was the best time to place puppies in private homes; any later critically reduced the time left before the puppies reached twelve weeks; but if puppies were removed from their dam and litter mates before six weeks they missed the opportunity to be properly socialised with their own kind, which resulted in inept interactions with other dogs in later life. The training success rate soared because of this policy, which was carried out in conjunction with the management of the gene pool via the breeding scheme Derek also pioneered. Annual success rates in excess of 75 percent became common. You might think that this is a special scheme for dogs with a special function. In fact, what the scheme provides is adult dogs with sound temperaments. These dogs coincidentally make the best material for guide dog training which does not start until they have been assessed at ten months or older. As a result of the breeding scheme, Derek Freeman also proved, if proof was needed, that you cannot dismiss the importance of genetic predisposition, i.e. the basic material required for good temperament can be produced through good breeding. Conversely, a lack of habituation/socialisation can ruin the chance of an individual developing a sound temperament, however good the genealogy."

and

"Having said that, it is unfortunate that some breeders believe that most families are unsuitable to look after a puppy when it is six weeks old, although it is difficult to see what suddenly makes a family suitable when the puppy is eight, ten or twelve weeks old. All too often breeders, unaware of the harm they are doing, retain puppies well into and sometimes past the critical socialisation and habituation period so that they, the breeders, have time to choose which puppy or puppies they wish to keep for showing before launching the rest on the unsuspecting public. There is in essence nothing wrong in the breeder retaining a puppy for as long as they want, as long as they systematically ensure that each puppy is properly socialised and habituated as an individual. Each puppy needs to learn to cope with the environment without the support of its litter brothers and sisters and other dogs. Although this is possible, in practice, it is very time-consuming."

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Corfield

Someones opinion isnt a scientific study no matter what their experience or qualifications. If experts use words like "can, might, feel, may" etc we can;t interpret those as "always, do, " etc. the uncertainty needs to be respected far more than any implication of certainty.

Sceintific studies are peer reviewed before becoming accepted scientific theory.

Someone isnt right becasue they are a breeder of many years and feel a certain way but I agree their experience can't simply be dismissed out of hand.

Some more to mull over.. paras 13,14


Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary?
David Appleby

Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

"What practical applications do we have that bear out the research? Guide Dogs for the Blind, who, until 1956, used to rely on the donation of adult dogs which they took on approval to maintain their training stock. The success rate of these dogs fluctuated between 9 and 11 percent and it was recognised that this could be improved if the association could supervise the rearing of puppies. These were purchased and placed in private homes at between ten and twelve weeks old or even later. Things improved, but the results were not good enough. It was Derek Freeman, who pushed to have puppies placed in private homes at an earlier age to optimise socialisation and habituation during the critical development period. Derek had a strong belief in Scott and Fuller’s work and importance of early socialisation and habituation in the production of dogs that were best able to survive and perform in the world at large.

Derek found that six weeks was the best time to place puppies in private homes; any later critically reduced the time left before the puppies reached twelve weeks; but if puppies were removed from their dam and litter mates before six weeks they missed the opportunity to be properly socialised with their own kind, which resulted in inept interactions with other dogs in later life. The training success rate soared because of this policy, which was carried out in conjunction with the management of the gene pool via the breeding scheme Derek also pioneered. Annual success rates in excess of 75 percent became common. You might think that this is a special scheme for dogs with a special function. In fact, what the scheme provides is adult dogs with sound temperaments. These dogs coincidentally make the best material for guide dog training which does not start until they have been assessed at ten months or older. As a result of the breeding scheme, Derek Freeman also proved, if proof was needed, that you cannot dismiss the importance of genetic predisposition, i.e. the basic material required for good temperament can be produced through good breeding. Conversely, a lack of habituation/socialisation can ruin the chance of an individual developing a sound temperament, however good the genealogy."

and

"Having said that, it is unfortunate that some breeders believe that most families are unsuitable to look after a puppy when it is six weeks old, although it is difficult to see what suddenly makes a family suitable when the puppy is eight, ten or twelve weeks old. All too often breeders, unaware of the harm they are doing, retain puppies well into and sometimes past the critical socialisation and habituation period so that they, the breeders, have time to choose which puppy or puppies they wish to keep for showing before launching the rest on the unsuspecting public. There is in essence nothing wrong in the breeder retaining a puppy for as long as they want, as long as they systematically ensure that each puppy is properly socialised and habituated as an individual. Each puppy needs to learn to cope with the environment without the support of its litter brothers and sisters and other dogs. Although this is possible, in practice, it is very time-consuming."

What I am gathering is your argument is for the release of puppies before 12 weeks on the basis that their socialization will be adversely impacted if release is prolonged, is that right?


But, our argument is that these dogs HEALTH can be adversely affected with early release. Imprinting is not a proven science (but I will let that go, for now) whereas a YT's propensity to hypoglycemia between 5-16 weeks is very high:


When Hypoglycemia Affects a Yorkie | PEDIGREE®


Why release a puppy just as it is entering a very delicate health period instead of towards the end?


Wouldn't you prefer to keep the puppy with you as long as possible so that it does not exceed imprinting period, which your source states is up to 14 weeks and is not released right when hypoglycemia becomes a threat?


Seems to me, on this basis, 12 weeks is more sensible release time for both the psychological and health reasons mentioned above...


What do you think?

[Corfield]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...tudies&f=false

page 81

"Rehoming should normally take place at between 6 and 8 weeks"

The "normally" isnt lost on me but this isnt a specific exclusion for toy breeds either !

[Corfield]

page 42 bottom of page left para

"by 7 weeks of age puppies are least inhibited and therefore best able to adapt to new experiences" "although continued socialization with other dogs is important, the focus of socialization should now be shifted toward as many new people and situations as possible"


Nothing here suggesting it is ONLY breeders that can do this.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...tudies&f=false

[Corfield]

Page 8

para 1,2 Rest of the article is great reading too

"It is generally agreed that extremes of re-homing, too early (before 6 weeks) or too late
(after 12 weeks), predispose puppies to develop adjustment problems later in life
(Lindsay, 2000). In particular, problems relating to fear and aggression are often
associated with late re-homing. O’Sullivan et al. (2008) found that over 60% of dogs
that had been reported for biting a person were acquired at 12 weeks of age or over.
McGreevy and Masters (2008) also report that the probability of displaying feed-related
aggression (which is also based in fear - Jones-Baade and McBride, 2000) increases
alongside the dog’s age at acquisition"

Lots of properly referenced sources listed at tend of the piece.

"Many sources recommend re-homing between 6 and 8 weeks, right in the middle of
the socialisation period (Fox, 1972; McCune et al. 1995; Lindsay 2000; Bailey, 2008)
with some highlighting 7 weeks (Campbell, 1974) and others recommending 6 weeks
(Freedman, 1991 as cited in Appleby 1997) as the optimal re-homing age. This allows
sufficient time for socialisation with conspecifics whilst enabling the puppy to readjust
to its new environment and socialise with the new owners before the fear imprint
period at 8-10 weeks (McCune et al. 1995). There are some sources that suggest that
6-8 weeks is too early for rehoming (Overall, 1997; Bailey 1994). Dr. Bailey (1994)
argues that reputable breeding environments provide sufficient human contact for
socialisation and waiting until the dog is older (ideally 10 weeks) provides a better
insight into the individual puppy’s physical and psychological attributes. In general, the
optimal time for re-homing a puppy is highly dependent on the provision of socioenvironmental
stimuli within the breeding environment and how this compares to the
ongoing experiences and training that will be provided by the new owners"

[Corfield]

teddy - re hypoglcemea .

How to prevent Hypoglycemia in tiny puppies.

This is hardly a reason to POTENTIALLY undermine a dogs lifetime behaviour.

A simple answer is also - people shouldnt breed "Tiny or teacup yorkies" Breed for health.

Also

"Ring Ring" Oh is that the telephone ?

"Hello I just bought a puppy from you. it is isnt eating and is shivering etc "

"give it some corn syrup or a bit of sugar" etc..

Not hard is it ?

[kreuer]

Originally Posted by Corfield

teddy - re hypoglcemea .

How to prevent Hypoglycemia in tiny puppies.

This is hardly a reason to POTENTIALLY undermine a dogs lifetime behaviour.

A simple answer is also - people shouldnt breed "Tiny or teacup yorkies" Breed for health.

Also

"Ring Ring" Oh is that the telephone ?

"Hello I just bought a puppy from you. it is isnt eating and is shivering etc "

"give it some corn syrup or a bit of sugar" etc..

Not hard is it ?

Would love to know how big your puppies are at 8 weeks old?


Would also like to say, this is why you can not always rely on "scientific evidence." Most people can find data to support their side of the issue. For example, when my son was a baby and I was desperate for him to sleep through the night, my pediatrician said "let him cry out." After research I found a lot of data for crying it out and a lot against crying it out. All from well respected pediatricians. So instead, I listen to who I respect and know to be well respected in the community and what I FEEL is best for me. I have a lot of respect and know many reputable breeders here on YT and will follow their advice and knowledge from their many years of experience. I also know a well respected, reputable Shih Tzu breeder who also feels 12 weeks is best for her pups. For those reasons, not the "scientific evidence" being thrown around, I feel 12 weeks is a better age for puppies to go to their new homes.

[SirTeddykins]

Originally Posted by Corfield

teddy - re hypoglcemea .

How to prevent Hypoglycemia in tiny puppies.

This is hardly a reason to POTENTIALLY undermine a dogs lifetime behaviour.

A simple answer is also - people shouldnt breed "Tiny or teacup yorkies" Breed for health.

Also

"Ring Ring" Oh is that the telephone ?

"Hello I just bought a puppy from you. it is isnt eating and is shivering etc "

"give it some corn syrup or a bit of sugar" etc..

Not hard is it ?

Well, I don't know, is it hard? Do you advise at the point of sale that you are releasing your puppies at a potentially life-threatening stage? And, because of that, please call you if they notice x, y, z for advice? Am I to just assume that with my crystal ball?


Additionally:


Your site says that your puppies are KC registered but the dam appears to have floppy ears which isn't KC standard according to the Yorkshire Terrier Club of England:


| The Yorkshire Terrier Club - Breed Standard |


Additionally, you are not listed on the KC site as an assured breeder or any other type of approved breeder. Is it difficult to put yourself on the site if you're legitimate KC? I dunno....

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/serv...ed=6165&area=0

Finally, the sire that you are using is being auctioned off at £250 a time on Pets4homes.co.uk which is a site renown for its puppy farm breeders and other unethical selling practices:


Toy Yorkshire Terrier At Stud KC Reg For Stud | Pickering, North Yorkshire | Pets4Homes


So, you say that you are in the position to advise re: puppy release time and hypoglycemia but the lack of adherence to KC standards, despite KC registration assurance, and the use of a stud from an unethical site makes me wonder...


I do not point these things out to be confrontational but to sort of let you know how seriously we investigate breeder claims when they contravene standard advice. You are entitled, by all means, to critically challenge any evidence. In fact, it would be unwise to NOT challenge standards. However, it is unlikely that your challenges will gain any ground if the basics in other areas are not met.


On the grounds of your advice re: hypoglycemia, early release and the rest of the info above, I would conclude that you are (at best) an inexperienced breeder.


Hey, we all have to start somewhere. BUT, if I think it, others think it and at least I have been honest so that you can make an informed decision on whether or not you want to continue with the current perception.

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by kreuer

Would love to know how big your puppies are at 8 weeks old?


Would also like to say, this is why you can not always rely on "scientific evidence." Most people can find data to support their side of the issue. For example, when my son was a baby and I was desperate for him to sleep through the night, my pediatrician said "let him cry out." After research I found a lot of data for crying it out and a lot against crying it out. All from well respected pediatricians. So instead, I listen to who I respect and know to be well respected in the community and what I FEEL is best for me. I have a lot of respect and know many reputable breeders here on YT and will follow their advice and knowledge from their many years of experience. I also know a well respected, reputable Shih Tzu breeder who also feels 12 weeks is best for her pups. For those reasons, not the "scientific evidence" being thrown around, I feel 12 weeks is a better age for puppies to go to their new homes.

Science isnt 100% certainty but it is logical fallacy to use that as evidence to ignore it.

So far the keep them until 12-14 weeks side of this debate is seriously lacking in academic support.

"feeling" something is correct is 100% less reliable at getting to the truth than properly conducted and peer reviewed science.