Live Birth / whelping

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Police dogs are larger dogs I am talking about small dogs. There is a huge difference. You can want to argue about it all you want but reputable breeders keep pups until 12 weeks. My breed club stands behind that as well.

Yes I do want you to justify your claims. It isn't the responsibility of the audience to provide evidence for the claims to knowledge of others.

If you make a claim to knowledge it is your responsibility to provide high quality evidence to support it.

If there is a "huge difference" I would expect there to be plenty of good quality evidence available instead of people offering up logical fallacies and opinions or beliefs instead.

It is utterly dishonest to offer opinion as fact.

It is unfair to claim people that don't swallow the argument as cruel, less knowledgeable, irresponsible etc.

[gemy]

Let me see if I can find some studies for you - I am just setting up a new laptop and I hope that my links are still here.


Generally accepted practices and what the YTCA says are noteworthy - again in my opinion. But I know there have been studies done - just got to find them for you.


My personal concern is the weight of the toy dog being over 2lbs prior to going home. Also many breeders do like to give the first set of shots - I also like that as number one they get to deal with any adverse reactions any young pup might have.


I know that seven weeks is considered okay for the large breeds - how-ever some other factors come into play - such as if you are trying to export the puppy to a foreign country - that might not be legal under 8wks old. Also the USA recently changed their import laws to require pups be vaccinated against rabies prior to entry. And you can't vaccinate Rabies under 3months old....


As a large dog breeder the norm is between 7-8 wks old - at that age my breed is anywhere from 14lbs-20lbs... We do like for the pups to be placed and the bonding and obedience training begin in earnest with their new owner.


How-ever all my yakking is somewhat off point as we are talking about the toy breeds. Let me shut up now and try to find some research:-)

[gemy]

I found this interesting, and studies are linked at the bottom of the article:


THE ENRICHMENT EFFECT

[chickensmith]

I brought Winnie home at 10 weeks....the breeder chose to let me bring her home because I had a lot of experience with tiny dogs...and had been a vet tech. Some of her larger pups had already gone home at 8 weeks, and she chose to keep Winnie until she was closer to 2#. I value the breeder I got Winnie from and wouldn't say that she wasn't reputable for letting her pups go at 8 weeks...because she does use her judgement, has a genuine care for her pups (I was the 5th person to contact her about this particular pup, and she had turned them away for various reasons including no experience with small pups, no established vet connection, had small children, etc). I do get the idea behind keeping a small pup with mom and with the experienced breeder until it is older...but I don't think it is horrible if a pup comes to its new home sooner....everyone is entitled to an opinion....and they are all different. I get that the general consensus is to keep yorkie pups with mom until 12 weeks...but I think labeling people as "bad breeders" because they don't is uncalled for.

I personally value Gemy's opinions...love reading her comments and follow ups because she is quick apologize if she has offended...and is a plethera of information!!!

This is a very large group of very passionate people...and tons of opinions and information!!!
But opinions are just that....and everyone is entitled to have one

Good luck with your new babies!!! They are very cute!!!!

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by chickensmith

I brought Winnie home at 10 weeks....the breeder chose to let me bring her home because I had a lot of experience with tiny dogs...and had been a vet tech. Some of her larger pups had already gone home at 8 weeks, and she chose to keep Winnie until she was closer to 2#. I value the breeder I got Winnie from and wouldn't say that she wasn't reputable for letting her pups go at 8 weeks...because she does use her judgement, has a genuine care for her pups (I was the 5th person to contact her about this particular pup, and she had turned them away for various reasons including no experience with small pups, no established vet connection, had small children, etc). I do get the idea behind keeping a small pup with mom and with the experienced breeder until it is older...but I don't think it is horrible if a pup comes to its new home sooner....everyone is entitled to an opinion....and they are all different. I get that the general consensus is to keep yorkie pups with mom until 12 weeks...but I think labeling people as "bad breeders" because they don't is uncalled for.

I personally value Gemy's opinions...love reading her comments and follow ups because she is quick apologize if she has offended...and is a plethera of information!!!

This is a very large group of very passionate people...and tons of opinions and information!!!
But opinions are just that....and everyone is entitled to have one

Good luck with your new babies!!! They are very cute!!!!

In my opinion it is one of the larger red flags and one of the reasons so many come here to ask about bitting issues. Our breed club also states good breeders keep the pups until 12 weeks and they know this breed better then most and what is better for it so I will trust them.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Interesting, very interesting series of studies, Gail. Thanks for the links. Larger, more developed, hyperplastic brains in our pups due to environment and activities, more time with mom and the littermates to imprint their brains with more and better skills! Who wouldn't want that?

[kreuer]

In my opinion....


Sending a puppy home later (12 weeks), benefits the puppy and the new owner.


Sending a puppy home as soon as possible (8 weeks), only benefits one person, the breeder.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by kreuer

In my opinion....


Sending a puppy home later (12 weeks), benefits the puppy and the new owner.


Sending a puppy home as soon as possible (8 weeks), only benefits one person, the breeder.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by kreuer

In my opinion....


Sending a puppy home later (12 weeks), benefits the puppy and the new owner.


Sending a puppy home as soon as possible (8 weeks), only benefits one person, the breeder.

[ColesMommy01]

I've enjoyed watching your videos! I will say that I would be nervous bringing home a puppy that was less than 2 lbs no matter the age. My current yorkie Rasta was 20 oz when I brought him home at 12 weeks(the breeder only let him go with me that early at that weight since I'm a stay at home mom). I would never feel comfortable doing that again. I don't have issues or think less of breeders that do let them go a bit earlier than 12 weeks as long as I see they're doing everything else correctly imo.

[Corfield]

]

Still lacking any scientific study here.

People claiming to be using scientific methods to sell a book isnr good evidence

Breeders dont get the experience of knowing what happens to their puppies in a scientifically controlled way by releasing them at x weeks and collecting bits and pieces of feedback from some of their owners. If they keep the dogs themselves thats not valid evidence either.


Again I reiterate that IF toy breeds were different from large breeds studies and professional opinion offered about dogs would need to make that distinction in their recommendations, in order to be quality advice. They dont on the issue of when to home a puppy. They do on other matters such as when different breeds reach adolescence, breeding age etc. There doesnt seem to be a widely held professional opinion that toy breeds need special treatment when it comes to the age they can leave the breeder.

[Yorkiemom1]

I loved your Enrichment Video Gail! I managed to find this ONE article in my one computer....my business computer is in hospice, and will be needing replacement very soon....I can not get to any of my business articles, breeding articles, etc.....I have an entire file folder validating and backing up the theory justifying via evidenced based trial outcomes, the benefits of Yorkies staying with mother and siblings until at least 12 weeks of age.....hopefully one of my experts can retrieve those files from that dying business computer....you know what a stickler I am for evidenced based outcomes and scientifically tested trials....!! So I offer the article below, presented by several well known behavorists,vets, breeders, and AKC judges with many, many years experience....


"Although a puppy is born with essentially all the brain cells he will ever have, his brain grows in two ways: It gets bigger, and it changes shape. How much the brain grows and the way it changes shape depend on the kind of environmental stimulation the pup receives during the first 16 weeks of life, writes Raymond Coppinger, professor of biology at Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts, in Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution (Scribner, 2001; coauthored with Lorna Coppinger).

Growth comes in the connections between the cells. Dendrites are brain nerve-cell structures that form contacts with other nerve cells. The more connections the dendrites make, the more the brain grows. By 6 weeks of age, a puppy's brain mass is approximately 70 percent developed, and by 16 weeks of age, almost all the connections have been made. Once brain growth stops, it's difficult to change the wiring, Coppinger writes.

The critical period for influencing puppies is between 3 weeks and 14 weeks of age, says Lore Haug, D.V.M., a board-certified behaviorist with South Texas Veterinary Behavior Services in Sugar Land, Texas.

Before 3 weeks of age, a puppy's activities consist primarily of eating and sleeping. This is the neonatal, or newborn, period. It might seem as if not much is going on in the brain during this period, but early neurological stimulating exercises, such as holding them, turning them over and exposing them to minor temperature changes, can benefit puppies.

"There's a window in the life of every puppy that opens on the third day of life and closes on the 16th day," says Carmen L. Battaglia, Ph.D., who has bred and finished (earned a championship on) a number of dogs, and who is an American Kennel Club judge of more than 40 breeds. "If you stimulate their neurological system during that open window, for the rest of that puppy's life, he will have a better heartbeat, a better heart rate, more resistance to disease, greater tolerance of stress and a more active adrenal system, so his adrenaline will run faster when he needs it." (This is the "Super Dog Neurological Stimulation Program that is used on all Rosehill Yorkie puppies.)

The transitional period begins at 2 weeks of age, when the puppy's eyes open. During this time, puppies show significant improvement in their ability to learn and can even be trained to perform a response for a food reward as early as 15 days of age, writes veterinary behaviorist Ian Dunbar in Dog Behavior: Why Dogs Do What They Do (Ingram Book Co., 1989).

The transitional period ends when the ears open and the canine teeth emerge, toward the end of the third week. At this point, puppies are suddenly active and busy. They learn that they can sit, and they start trying to walk, although they're pretty wobbly and still need lots of practice. Puppies during this stage begin playful biting and pawing behavior.

Now the puppies have entered what's known as the socialization period, the critical time for brain development.

"Three weeks of age is about the time that they're a little bit mobile, their ears are open, their eyes are open, so they have the ability to taste, smell, obviously touch and hear, so all their senses are functioning," Haug says. "They can start being exposed to different sounds, visual stimuli, tactile stimuli and things as part of their socialization process." Because the socialization period begins at such an early age, a good breeder is essential for success.

Going Home
The age at which a puppy goes to his new home can also affect his development. Traditionally, puppies have gone to new homes at 6 to 8 weeks of age, but more and more breeders— especially breeders of toy breeds, such as Yorkshire Terriers —prefer to keep their pups until they're at least 10 to 12 weeks old. The additional time with mother and littermates helps them develop more fully, they believe.

Yorkies mature slowly, and reputable breeders won't let them go before they're 12 to 14 weeks old, saysYorkshire Terrier breeder Doreen Hubbard of Marysville, Washington. There's a physical bonus as well, she says. Yorkies go through a trouble-filled teething stage during which they lack appetite and often have diarrhea. "I hate seeing somebody buy a dog who is going to worry them the first month they have him, wondering why he isn't eating, why he's got diarrhea," she says, advising to let the breeder take care of that.

Haug agrees that there are psychological and behavioral lessons a puppy can learn through a longer stay with his mother and littermates.

Those behaviors include bite inhibition— learning how not to inflict injury with the teeth — as well as other perceptual, motor and social skills. A 6-week-old puppy who's weaned and rehomed at that age misses those lessons, but whether a longer stay at the breeder's home is beneficial depends a lot on the quality of the breeder.

"We've made observations that puppies who are weaned and sent away early often do have more behavior issues, more difficulty adapting to new homes than puppies who are sent out a little bit later," Haug says. "

Of course, this is where the term "reputable breeder" comes into play....these are lessons the momma teaches her pups, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the experience or enthusiasm of any new owner. I love to watch my mommas "teach" the pups.....it is an amazing thing to observe. "Kreuer" posted above that the only person that benefits from letting a puppy leave early, is the breeder.....how true!! It is a WHOLE lot cheaper and you dont have all the pooping, peeing, crying, weaning issues they develop as they cut more teeth....profit margin is considerably better too with no or fewer vaccinations, well baby checks, etc. I just think I want my babies to be the absolute best they can be, before they leave me to face the world and all it has to offer. I want every single second momma can spend with her pup, teaching, prodding, loving, correcting, molding, and perfecting her baby. I just think that is MY responsibility to assure this critical time is established and guaranteed with babies and mommas.

[Corfield]

Sorry.

Your own joyous observations are evidence of my position not one that dogs need or should stay with a breeder beyond 7/8 weeks.

Very few of the activities being suggested here are activities that only a breeder or the puppies litter mates or mother can do. A 6 week old is mentioned. We are not talking about 6 weeks as we all agree 6 weeks is too young.

The credentials and methods of people claiming phds etc is smoke to blow up peoples asses that are impressed by these things not the validity of the studies / claims. It is a sales pitch and people seem to be using it without a critical eye.

[Lovetodream88]

Small dogs are different then big dogs whether you want to believe it or not. It is better for the pups to stay with there mom until 12 weeks whether you want to believe it or not. Your not interested in learning or changing so that's why it's important we try to educate buyers so they know what is right and to buy from breeders who are reputable and do things right. You win some you lose some. A least we attempted. I will certainly keep your pups in my prayers and hope that none of them end up having the issues lots of pups have when leaving there mom to early. Because it is sadly them that suffer the consequences.

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

Small dogs are different then big dogs whether you want to believe it or not. It is better for the pups to stay with there mom until 12 weeks whether you want to believe it or not. Your not interested in learning or changing so that's why it's important we try to educate buyers so they know what is right and to buy from breeders who are reputable and do things right. You win some you lose some. A least we attempted. I will certainly keep your pups in my prayers and hope that none of them end up having the issues lots of pups have when leaving there mom to early. Because it is sadly them that suffer the consequences.

So you have no good evidence, given up and resorted to prayer.

Marvelous !