Live Birth / whelping

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by SirTeddykins

Well, I don't know, is it hard? Do you advise at the point of sale that you are releasing your puppies at a potentially life-threatening stage? And, because of that, please call you if they notice x, y, z for advice? Am I to just assume that with my crystal ball?


Additionally:


Your site says that your puppies are KC registered but the dam appears to have floppy ears which isn't KC standard according to the Yorkshire Terrier Club of England:


| The Yorkshire Terrier Club - Breed Standard |


Additionally, you are not listed on the KC site as an assured breeder or any other type of approved breeder. Is it difficult to put yourself on the site if you're legitimate KC? I dunno....

Yorkshire Terrier puppies for sale in All Areas

Finally, the sire that you are using is being auctioned off at £250 a time on Pets4homes.co.uk which is a site renown for its puppy farm breeders and other unethical selling practices:


Toy Yorkshire Terrier At Stud KC Reg For Stud | Pickering, North Yorkshire | Pets4Homes


So, you say that you are in the position to advise re: puppy release time and hypoglycemia but the lack of adherence to KC standards, despite KC registration assurance, and the use of a stud from an unethical site makes me wonder...


I do not point these things out to be confrontational but to sort of let you know how seriously we investigate breeder claims when they contravene standard advice. You are entitled, by all means, to critically challenge any evidence. In fact, it would be unwise to NOT challenge standards. However, it is unlikely that your challenges will gain any ground if the basics in other areas are not met.


On the grounds of your advice re: hypoglycemia, early release and the rest of the info above, I would conclude that you are (at best) an inexperienced breeder.


Hey, we all have to start somewhere. BUT, if I think it, others think it and at least I have been honest so that you can make an informed decision on whether or not you want to continue with the current perception.

Instead of the Ad Hominems, arguments from authority and Red Herrings where is your evidence on what is a simple topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-herring.html

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Surely you can do better than a "inexperienced breeder" you say is contravening "standard" advice.

You are not remotely being "honest".

[SirTeddykins]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear, apologies.


My point is, simply, that you seem to lack the ability to conform to standard breeding practices which are put forth by the registrar you claim supports your progeny, namely, the Kennel Club. Therefore, you are unlikely to sway anyone with your point of view which contravenes those basic practices and ethical guidelines. If you had not claimed that your puppies were KC registered, then we'd be having a different conversation.


As it stands, I am not attacking you or your intellect. You are quite interesting and have succeeded in engaging others in what is a very stimulating topic by including your points of view which you have backed up with evidence, albeit, one-sided.


I am quite happy to argue the merits of imprinting with you. My first undergraduate research project rejected Bowlby's theory re: imprinting and attachment on various grounds. I am also happy to spend my time with scientific evidence which refutes your assertion that socialization and habituation can only be achieved by the release of puppies from their initial environment before 12 weeks.


However, your reply to my query re: hypoglycemia risk during the time you are releasing your pups suggests that you would prefer that someone agree with you rather than question your decisions and evidence. I have replied to you in a way which shows why I cannot agree with you over the advice provided by an experienced breeder whose advice is contrary to your own.


My statements were not meant to offend you and I'm sorry you took it that way.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Corfield

page 42 bottom of page left para

"by 7 weeks of age puppies are least inhibited and therefore best able to adapt to new experiences" "although continued socialization with other dogs is important, the focus of socialization should now be shifted toward as many new people and situations as possible"


Nothing here suggesting it is ONLY breeders that can do this.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...tudies&f=false

Just chiming in to say I am still looking. I read the paper you posted but not all of the referenced research. Thank you for that I found it interesting.


That being for a later release date for toy breeds studies research.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Yorkiemom1

I loved your Enrichment Video Gail! I managed to find this ONE article in my one computer....my business computer is in hospice, and will be needing replacement very soon....I can not get to any of my business articles, breeding articles, etc.....I have an entire file folder validating and backing up the theory justifying via evidenced based trial outcomes, the benefits of Yorkies staying with mother and siblings until at least 12 weeks of age.....hopefully one of my experts can retrieve those files from that dying business computer....you know what a stickler I am for evidenced based outcomes and scientifically tested trials....!! So I offer the article below, presented by several well known behavorists,vets, breeders, and AKC judges with many, many years experience....


"Although a puppy is born with essentially all the brain cells he will ever have, his brain grows in two ways: It gets bigger, and it changes shape. How much the brain grows and the way it changes shape depend on the kind of environmental stimulation the pup receives during the first 16 weeks of life, writes Raymond Coppinger, professor of biology at Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts, in Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution (Scribner, 2001; coauthored with Lorna Coppinger).

Growth comes in the connections between the cells. Dendrites are brain nerve-cell structures that form contacts with other nerve cells. The more connections the dendrites make, the more the brain grows. By 6 weeks of age, a puppy's brain mass is approximately 70 percent developed, and by 16 weeks of age, almost all the connections have been made. Once brain growth stops, it's difficult to change the wiring, Coppinger writes.

The critical period for influencing puppies is between 3 weeks and 14 weeks of age, says Lore Haug, D.V.M., a board-certified behaviorist with South Texas Veterinary Behavior Services in Sugar Land, Texas.

Before 3 weeks of age, a puppy's activities consist primarily of eating and sleeping. This is the neonatal, or newborn, period. It might seem as if not much is going on in the brain during this period, but early neurological stimulating exercises, such as holding them, turning them over and exposing them to minor temperature changes, can benefit puppies.

"There's a window in the life of every puppy that opens on the third day of life and closes on the 16th day," says Carmen L. Battaglia, Ph.D., who has bred and finished (earned a championship on) a number of dogs, and who is an American Kennel Club judge of more than 40 breeds. "If you stimulate their neurological system during that open window, for the rest of that puppy's life, he will have a better heartbeat, a better heart rate, more resistance to disease, greater tolerance of stress and a more active adrenal system, so his adrenaline will run faster when he needs it." (This is the "Super Dog Neurological Stimulation Program that is used on all Rosehill Yorkie puppies.)

The transitional period begins at 2 weeks of age, when the puppy's eyes open. During this time, puppies show significant improvement in their ability to learn and can even be trained to perform a response for a food reward as early as 15 days of age, writes veterinary behaviorist Ian Dunbar in Dog Behavior: Why Dogs Do What They Do (Ingram Book Co., 1989).

The transitional period ends when the ears open and the canine teeth emerge, toward the end of the third week. At this point, puppies are suddenly active and busy. They learn that they can sit, and they start trying to walk, although they're pretty wobbly and still need lots of practice. Puppies during this stage begin playful biting and pawing behavior.

Now the puppies have entered what's known as the socialization period, the critical time for brain development.

"Three weeks of age is about the time that they're a little bit mobile, their ears are open, their eyes are open, so they have the ability to taste, smell, obviously touch and hear, so all their senses are functioning," Haug says. "They can start being exposed to different sounds, visual stimuli, tactile stimuli and things as part of their socialization process." Because the socialization period begins at such an early age, a good breeder is essential for success.

Going Home
The age at which a puppy goes to his new home can also affect his development. Traditionally, puppies have gone to new homes at 6 to 8 weeks of age, but more and more breeders— especially breeders of toy breeds, such as Yorkshire Terriers —prefer to keep their pups until they're at least 10 to 12 weeks old. The additional time with mother and littermates helps them develop more fully, they believe.

Yorkies mature slowly, and reputable breeders won't let them go before they're 12 to 14 weeks old, saysYorkshire Terrier breeder Doreen Hubbard of Marysville, Washington. There's a physical bonus as well, she says. Yorkies go through a trouble-filled teething stage during which they lack appetite and often have diarrhea. "I hate seeing somebody buy a dog who is going to worry them the first month they have him, wondering why he isn't eating, why he's got diarrhea," she says, advising to let the breeder take care of that.

Haug agrees that there are psychological and behavioral lessons a puppy can learn through a longer stay with his mother and littermates.

Those behaviors include bite inhibition— learning how not to inflict injury with the teeth — as well as other perceptual, motor and social skills. A 6-week-old puppy who's weaned and rehomed at that age misses those lessons, but whether a longer stay at the breeder's home is beneficial depends a lot on the quality of the breeder.

"We've made observations that puppies who are weaned and sent away early often do have more behavior issues, more difficulty adapting to new homes than puppies who are sent out a little bit later," Haug says. "

Of course, this is where the term "reputable breeder" comes into play....these are lessons the momma teaches her pups, and has absolutely NOTHING to do with the experience or enthusiasm of any new owner. I love to watch my mommas "teach" the pups.....it is an amazing thing to observe. "Kreuer" posted above that the only person that benefits from letting a puppy leave early, is the breeder.....how true!! It is a WHOLE lot cheaper and you dont have all the pooping, peeing, crying, weaning issues they develop as they cut more teeth....profit margin is considerably better too with no or fewer vaccinations, well baby checks, etc. I just think I want my babies to be the absolute best they can be, before they leave me to face the world and all it has to offer. I want every single second momma can spend with her pup, teaching, prodding, loving, correcting, molding, and perfecting her baby. I just think that is MY responsibility to assure this critical time is established and guaranteed with babies and mommas.

Thanks Judy I knew you would have them somewhere. I had to replace my laptop this wkend the old one died, and my puter guy is off on March break holidays, so it was barely all I could to copy my documents from my external back up drive to this new lap top. Not to mention re install my Tax programs...yuck!

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Corfield

Instead of the Ad Hominems, arguments from authority and Red Herrings where is your evidence on what is a simple topic.

ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fallacy: Red Herring

Argument from authority - RationalWiki

Surely you can do better than a "inexperienced breeder" you say is contravening "standard" advice.

You are not remotely being "honest".

I for one appreciate your passion to adhere to the *latest in scientific evidence.


It is possible that the science such as it exists is *weak*. SirTeddykins or pstinard will correct if I am wrong, but I thought behavioural studies are rife with interpretative results ie: observer bias in grading actions or responses etc. I use those two names as folks I know have much more education than I on interpretating scientific data, as they are professionals in their respective fields - IDK maybe you are a scientist as well.


It would concern me if you are making claims that you are KC registered breeder and it is not so/true. While I sure technically it would not invalidate your arguments when you argue logic or the strength or weakness of any evidentiary support for position a/b/c - personally that would be a huge factor as a potential puppy buyer. If you were to be lying about your KC status, what else are you not being truthfull about?


So what we have right now are some studies done on likely medium to large breed dogs and none yet posted on small breed dogs.


And I will point out in the paper you referenced by definition the size of those dogs would for sure not be in the toy dog category, in fact would be very limited by breed type.


For me, in raising, rearing, whelping puppies, and in fact in training, I put great respect and reliance on breeders of many many years. I relatively new to breeding under 20yrs in fact - their clinical and practical experience is much needed. It is why in so many professional fields you have an apprenticeship program, you get your theory from the schoolroom, and then you are tutored under an experienced professional.


R

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Corfield

Someones opinion isnt a scientific study no matter what their experience or qualifications. If experts use words like "can, might, feel, may" etc we can;t interpret those as "always, do, " etc. the uncertainty needs to be respected far more than any implication of certainty.

Sceintific studies are peer reviewed before becoming accepted scientific theory.

Someone isnt right becasue they are a breeder of many years and feel a certain way but I agree their experience can't simply be dismissed out of hand.

Some more to mull over.. paras 13,14


Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary?
David Appleby

Puppy Socialisation and Habituation (Part 1) Why is it Necessary? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

"What practical applications do we have that bear out the research? Guide Dogs for the Blind, who, until 1956, used to rely on the donation of adult dogs which they took on approval to maintain their training stock. The success rate of these dogs fluctuated between 9 and 11 percent and it was recognised that this could be improved if the association could supervise the rearing of puppies. These were purchased and placed in private homes at between ten and twelve weeks old or even later. Things improved, but the results were not good enough. It was Derek Freeman, who pushed to have puppies placed in private homes at an earlier age to optimise socialisation and habituation during the critical development period. Derek had a strong belief in Scott and Fuller’s work and importance of early socialisation and habituation in the production of dogs that were best able to survive and perform in the world at large.

Derek found that six weeks was the best time to place puppies in private homes; any later critically reduced the time left before the puppies reached twelve weeks; but if puppies were removed from their dam and litter mates before six weeks they missed the opportunity to be properly socialised with their own kind, which resulted in inept interactions with other dogs in later life. The training success rate soared because of this policy, which was carried out in conjunction with the management of the gene pool via the breeding scheme Derek also pioneered. Annual success rates in excess of 75 percent became common. You might think that this is a special scheme for dogs with a special function. In fact, what the scheme provides is adult dogs with sound temperaments. These dogs coincidentally make the best material for guide dog training which does not start until they have been assessed at ten months or older. As a result of the breeding scheme, Derek Freeman also proved, if proof was needed, that you cannot dismiss the importance of genetic predisposition, i.e. the basic material required for good temperament can be produced through good breeding. Conversely, a lack of habituation/socialisation can ruin the chance of an individual developing a sound temperament, however good the genealogy."

and

"Having said that, it is unfortunate that some breeders believe that most families are unsuitable to look after a puppy when it is six weeks old, although it is difficult to see what suddenly makes a family suitable when the puppy is eight, ten or twelve weeks old. All too often breeders, unaware of the harm they are doing, retain puppies well into and sometimes past the critical socialisation and habituation period so that they, the breeders, have time to choose which puppy or puppies they wish to keep for showing before launching the rest on the unsuspecting public. There is in essence nothing wrong in the breeder retaining a puppy for as long as they want, as long as they systematically ensure that each puppy is properly socialised and habituated as an individual. Each puppy needs to learn to cope with the environment without the support of its litter brothers and sisters and other dogs. Although this is possible, in practice, it is very time-consuming."

Thank you for that long, interesting summary. The information you've provided seems to summarize information from studies not available for inspection or rental/purchase. Would you have access to those actual original abstracts or scientific studies quoted in the piece you reference? That's what I was hoping to see - links to the actual scientific research studies themselves or at least their abstracts about the trials.

I wondered where the basic separation-age limits came from, hoping that weaned age wasn't the only criteria for finding pups able to go to a new home. There is always disagreement on this subject but I would like to know which age better prepares a puppy physically and mentally to deal with his new world and have that based on actual studies we can read, ruminate over, discuss.

The webpage article you provided has conclusions apparently arrived at by the writer of the article from only referenced studies I didn't see links to, weighted largely contrary to what I've found by what are considered the most reputable breeders on Yorkietalk(the world's largest online Yorkie forum and no mean assembly of knowledgeable puppy experience) as well as what I've been able to find online. Poking about on my own, doing my limited research, I've found some online abstracts of studies(fully available for a fee) and a long preview of a book - several pages - (for purchase), based on data from purported scientific studies such as you have copied above, as to the effect on the puppies' health, ability to bond with humans, learn tasks and develop and adapt to his life circumstances better at a later separation age from mom than 7 - 8 weeks. The sources I've found seem to argue an opposing(surprise, surprise!) point to early-age separation of puppies from the dam, if you or anyone is really interested and can help me work through them. Anyone?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Thank you for that long, interesting summary. The information you've provided seems to summarize information from studies not available for inspection or rental/purchase. Would you have access to those actual original abstracts or scientific studies quoted in the piece you reference? That's what I was hoping to see - links to the actual scientific research studies themselves or at least their abstracts about the trials.

I wondered where the basic separation-age limits came from, hoping that weaned age wasn't the only criteria for finding pups able to go to a new home. There is always disagreement on this subject but I would like to know which age better prepares a puppy physically and mentally to deal with his new world and have that based on actual studies we can read, ruminate over, discuss.

The webpage article you provided has conclusions apparently arrived at by the writer of the article from only referenced studies I didn't see links to, weighted largely contrary to what I've found by what are considered the most reputable breeders on Yorkietalk(the world's largest online Yorkie forum and no mean assembly of knowledgeable puppy experience) as well as what I've been able to find online. Poking about on my own, doing my limited research, I've found some online abstracts of studies(fully available for a fee) and a long preview of a book - several pages - (for purchase), based on data from purported scientific studies such as you have copied above, as to the effect on the puppies' health, ability to bond with humans, learn tasks and develop and adapt to his life circumstances better at a later separation age from mom than 7 - 8 weeks. The sources I've found seem to argue an opposing(surprise, surprise!) point to early-age separation of puppies from the dam, if you or anyone is really interested and can help me work through them. Anyone?

Jeanie Phil is really generous with his help. PM him he can get for free anything behind a pay firewall. He can send you a private email and pdf file of the research -d but as I understand it - we can't publish the whole paper etc here - he can explain better the copyright laws.

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by gemy

Just chiming in to say I am still looking. I read the paper you posted but not all of the referenced research. Thank you for that I found it interesting.


That being for a later release date for toy breeds studies research.

The claims by some that toy breeds are not included/relevant in this research amount to special pleading.

Special pleading - RationalWiki

The assertion that 8 weeks is too young is for those making the claim to provide evidence to support.

It is nowhere to be seen so far nevermind behind a pay wall.

You'd think it would be to hand given the arrogance it is offered up as fact.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by gemy

Jeanie Phil is really generous with his help. PM him he can get for free anything behind a pay firewall. He can send you a private email and pdf file of the research -d but as I understand it - we can't publish the whole paper etc here - he can explain better the copyright laws.

I remember Phil has access! Still, I wouldn't break a copyright of a published research study. I was going to post links to the abstracts and book preview for those who were interested in looking into the subject of how the furry little research subjects fared when separated. I can handle all but pain studies on canines and never feel the researchers or clinicians fully plumb those depths and assume far too much in any study I've seen. Still, all actual research articles methods, findings, results and discussion I've found online or referenced in the online book can be examined by any interested parties to the degree they would like and relevant excerpts with proper attribution copied here for discussion.

I just didn't know if anyone was that interested in looking into any scientific abstracts or actually reading the full study and the book preview/ebook, which has complete references listed, on the subject of when it's best to separate pups from mom and how those conclusions were made.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Originally Posted by Corfield

The claims by some that toy breeds are not included/relevant in this research amount to special pleading.

Special pleading - RationalWiki

The assertion that 8 weeks is too young is for those making the claim to provide evidence to support.

It is nowhere to be seen so far nevermind behind a pay wall.

You'd think it would be to hand given the arrogance it is offered up as fact.

But I thought you were interested in actual scientific data and studies - real research, not someone's summary of it, which is all that I've seen so far that 7-8 weeks age of puppies is a good age to remove them from mom. Published, copyrighted research material is usually behind firewalls for purchase or published partly/wholly in a usually costly, subscribed, scientific magazine with permission from the author. Either way it's rarely free.

Just let me know if you'd like the links to the abstracts(give you a full overview of the study, summary) of the findings or the full articles and online ebook preview or ebook that is much like your webpage summary, with full references.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by Corfield

The claims by some that toy breeds are not included/relevant in this research amount to special pleading.

Special pleading - RationalWiki

The assertion that 8 weeks is too young is for those making the claim to provide evidence to support.

It is nowhere to be seen so far nevermind behind a pay wall.

You'd think it would be to hand given the arrogance it is offered up as fact.

Perhaps your Wikipedia reference is sound with respect to special pleading. Don't know Wiki is not an authoritative source for legal, medical or accounting opinions.


How-ever special pleadings per Wiki can be made with foundation provided.

[gemy]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

I remember Phil has access! Still, I wouldn't break a copyright of a published research study. I was going to post links to the abstracts and book preview for those who were interested in looking into the subject of how the furry little research subjects fared when separated. I can handle all but pain studies on canines and never feel the researchers or clinicians fully plumb those depths and assume far too much in any study I've seen. Still, all actual research articles methods, findings, results and discussion I've found online or referenced in the online book can be examined by any interested parties to the degree they would like and relevant excerpts with proper attribution copied here for discussion.

I just didn't know if anyone was that interested in looking into any scientific abstracts or actually reading the full study and the book preview/ebook, which has complete references listed, on the subject of when it's best to separate pups from mom and how those conclusions were made.

Jeanie I am interested for sure!!

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

But I thought you were interested in actual scientific data and studies - real research, not someone's summary of it, which is all that I've seen so far that 7-8 weeks age of puppies is a good age to remove them from mom. Published, copyrighted research material is usually behind firewalls for purchase or published partly/wholly in a usually costly, subscribed, scientific magazine with permission from the author. Either way it's rarely free.

Just let me know if you'd like the links to the abstracts(give you a full overview of the study, summary) of the findings or the full articles and online ebook preview or ebook that is much like your webpage summary, with full references.

I am interested.

I suppose the point is that I dont have to look into the source articles. I am willing to accept the many authors of the articles I posted that cite some of those studies as reasonable authorities on the subject.

One is written by a vet, the other in a book written by a vet, one by a behaviourist etc ... they are interlocking ie they support each others findings.

The people claiming otherwise here cant cite anything of any quality.

Even if they did cite something, the best we'd end up wit here - it seems to me - is that there is NO certainty that homing a puppy at 7 weeks plus is categorically incorrect, cruel, irresponsible etc.

I'd add much of this research has been around for many years - there is no excuse for people claiming expertise to have not heard of it / read it etc in forming the opinions they express here as the law on the matter. It may be the "latest" research but it isnt new by any means.

I am not the one going around lecturing potential owners or other breeders and bullying people.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Here goes - you can link on the study's authors' names to get any contact information, associations, citations, etc.

The effect of early separation from the mother on pups in bonding to humans and pup health. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

Observational learning of an acquired maternal behaviour pattern by working dog pups: an alternative training method?

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...page&q&f=false ebook preview Page 134 for discussion as older pups settle, quieten faster than younger pups

See what you all think and let's discuss these findings.

[Corfield]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Here goes - you can link on the study's authors' names to get any contact information, associations, citations, etc.

The effect of early separation from the mother on pups in bonding to humans and pup health. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

Observational learning of an acquired maternal behaviour pattern by working dog pups: an alternative training method?

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...page&q&f=false ebook preview Page 134 for discussion as older pups settle, quieten faster than younger pups

See what you all think and let's discuss these findings.

At best these represent some evidence to support a view that rehoming puppies at 6 weeks plus may not be optimal.

We are left with a situation where there is some evidence on both sides. Publishing some research doesnt amount to peer review it is part of that process.

The south African Studdy on GSD has only been cited 3 times (it sees) and it doesnt appear to have been reproduced anywhere despite the fact it is over 20 years old. OFC it is also talking about separation at 6 weeks not 7 or 8.