hitting with newspaper???

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by kalina82

I agree with Stacy. Your dog is not going to know why your hitting him and its just going to make him scared. Rubbing a puppy's nose in his pee or poop isn't going to make the puppy not go in the house anymore. Once the puppy has peed or pooped in the house he forgets he did it within seconds so if you punish him after he did it he is not going to know why you are punishing him and sticking his nose in poop. People think that dogs know when they did something bad, like pee in the house. Your dog is not reacting to you being mad about poop. Your dog is reacting to your body language and tone of voice. he doesn't know what your mad about or why your yelling at him. Using a loud angry voice and leaning into/over your dog is a sign of aggression and you are going to get a cowering scared reaction from the puppy. dogs are not people. They react differently then people and their mental capabilities are different. They can not associate you punishing and hitting them with newspaper with them pooping on the floor minutes or even seconds beforehand. they just know that mommy or daddy is mad and is hitting. This makes a scared and intimidated dog, who i wouldn't trust in the long run. There are many good books about dog behavior that you can pick up in barnes and noble that will teach you alot about training, a dogs learning ability, and dogs mental capabilities. If anyone would like the names of some that i've read please pm me if interested.

Once again, when did I ever say to hit a dog as a training method? I did NOT mean it this way. I mean after the dog already knows right from wrong.

And when a dog goes potty in the house, they need to be showed what they did wrong, therefore you put it's nose up to what they did, dont put it IN the pee or poo though, that's just sick, but show them what they did. Then you can tell them "NO". From what your saying kinda makes sense, your on the right track, but from what we have learned from the dog training classes, you need to show them what is wrong. If I show my dog his potty in the house and then tell him NO or put him in the cage, (remember this is a dog that is potty trained) then he will know why I am upset with him.

I probably am younger than most of you on this board, but I have owned dogs my whole life, the only time I didnt have a dog was the 2month period from when we had to put one dog to sleep and were waiting for our new puppy to be ready to come home. For all of our dogs, if they dis-obey and we spank them, they have never became fearful. It shows them who their owner is. Also, like I said, we have taken our dogs to training classes, so it's not like we DONT know how to raise dogs.

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Spanking children is no comparison....these dogs are 5 lbs average, you DO NOT HIT a dog into intimadation!!!! Plain and simply positive re-enforcement begets positive response and behavior!

If there is no comparison, then are you saying you would hit a child into intimidation?

[jbarile]

Objectionable pet behavior is the No. 1 reason people have unsatisfactory relationships with their dog," says Dr. Rolan Tripp, veterinarian and behaviorist who spoke on animal behavior to veterinary students at the University of Illinois College of Veterinary Medicine. More dogs die as a result of behavior problems than all preventable medical problems combined. Frustrated owners simply give up, and their untrained dogs often end up in animal shelters with uncertain fates.

Part of the problem lies in miscommunication. It's easier than you think to teach your dog the wrong thing. Well-meaning owners do it all the time. We've all seen owners yell and yell for a dog to come as the dog blissfully ignores the command, madly chasing squirrels instead. When finally the dog comes, the frustrated owner may pop the dog on the nose and yell some more. The message? Would you go to somebody who might hit and yell at you? Consistent training and positive reinforcement with treats and praise work a lot better to enforce the right message.

Teaching a dog proper behavior means knowing how to correct him when he does something inappropriate. Dr. Tripp points out that there are both good and bad ways to correct a pet. Owners should avoid spanking, kicking, "rubbing his nose in it," or yelling at a dog. Besides rarely communicating the message the owner intends, this type of correction can cause even more behavior problems.

"If you spank a dog for going to the bathroom inside, the message is, 'don't do it when I'm looking,'" says Dr. Tripp. "By rubbing his nose in it, the dog thinks, 'you want me to eat my own feces?' That can cause coprophagia [eating feces]."

Good corrections interrupt the undesirable behavior, then give a positive command, such as "sit." "When the dog doesn't 'sit,' ignore her and walk away," says Dr. Tripp. "Try again after two or three minutes of isolation. When she does it right, praise her."

Appropriate interruptions can include water spray, a collar correction, and use of a head halter. Many owners find that water in a spray bottle is an effective way to distract a barking or jumping dog, so that you can reward the opposite-being quiet. But sometimes owners will look to prong collars or choke collars for help in controlling behavior problems. Remember that these collars are not a substitute for putting in the time needed for obedience training and that they can be very dangerous.

"Collar corrections, especially choke chains, are overdone and misused by almost every owner. Used properly, a choke chain is meant to make a noisy 'pop,' not to jerk the dog around by his neck. These collars can easily damage a dog's neck, or asphyxiate and even kill a dog," says Dr. Tripp. If you want to try a correction collar, make sure you learn to use it correctly.

Head halters that go around a dog's muzzle and just behind the ears are a great alternative to the traditional neck collar, or prong collars, since they avoid putting pressure on the vertebrae of the neck, the thyroid, and trachea. They work by putting pressure on the muzzle and scruff-two areas to which a dog is naturally responsive. The collar also pulls the dog's entire head around so that when she pulls, she looks back toward the walker. "Dogs may struggle with the head halter for the first ten minutes, but after that they don't seem to notice it and are much more obedient," says Dr. Tripp.

A common history in dogs with behavior problems is that they are not walked regularly. Owners may have difficulty walking a dog that pulls, so walks become less and less frequent. A dog that is not exercised regularly will find other -- often destructive -- ways to vent his energy. That's why teaching your dog to walk calmly on a leash is so important. "If the dog pulls on the leash, change directions suddenly. Whoever determines the direction has leadership. The idea is to interrupt the bad behavior and praise the good," says Dr. Tripp.

Learning to communicate with your dog is complicated. But when it comes to dogs, a little patience and consistent training will earn you years of enjoyment. Talk to your veterinarian or enroll in a local training class to master the communication tools you need to make the most of your relationship with your dog. You'll find more behavior tips from Dr. Tripp online in the "Behavior Center" section of www.petopia.com.



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[Rae Rae]

That's a good article and I totally understand what it's saying. But when my dog gets lose and I have to chase it around the neighborhood, trying everything from treats, to cheese, to sandwiches to get him to come back to me and he still runs (he thinks it's a game), I'm really not going to be in the mood to praise him when he finally does come back. I know he'll come back eventually, usually as soon as I stop chasing him because then it's no fun for him. Of course I"m going to be pist, so of course I am going to yell at him, pop him upside the chin, or put him in his cage. My dog is a hellafast runner and I don't think anyone would be happy after chasing him, especially if they can't run for s**t (I've always had breathing problems when I run).

Also, we have never had an "unsatisfactory" relationship with any of our dogs at all.

For "rubbing a dogs nose in it's poop", I would never make contact w/ the nose and the poop, but we DO show our dogs what they did before we say "NO". Our dogs have never ate poop because of that, lol...but I guess it has happenedm to others...

As for the correction collar...is that like the choker chain? With our boxer we have right now, Gizmo, we must keep 2 on him, just incase one breaks. He really cannot be trusted with people outside a few select ones from our family. When we have in on the leash, we need the chain collar, and the one that pokes when you pull on it, just incase one gives out. And yes this is what the trainer has told us to do, I know a lot of people think that's "abuse" too. But back to my point, is that what they mean by correctional collar? When we do pull on our dogs collar he will turn around, lay on his stomach, causing himself pain when it's pulled and were kinda stuck cuz we don't want to hurt him anymore, but we need him to get up and teach him that whatever he did was wrong.


Anyways, thanks for sharing that article, it's great...but as you can see that w/ my current dog, I still have issues that that article cannot answer, and to be honest I don't think most people on here would even be able to answer, or even most average trainers.

How about if we all just agree to disagree, like I've said before. I'm not telling anyone how to raise their dogs, and I don't appreciate people telling me I'm raising my dog wrong when I have proof that I'm not. If I came across as a dog abuser, and that I train my dogs by hitting them, I'm not doing that, and my bad for coming across that way.

[bettyeanne]

We read in one of our books that if you spank/act out/scream, etc. at your pup for potty accidents in the house, they think you don't like seeing them do it! It causes them to sneak around and do it in places that you can't see them potty such as behind furniture, etc. The way we handled it with Toto was, as Vette said "throw a parade" for going on the pad .... we simply ignored the accidents on the floor/carpet and said nothing. We made sure that we silently cleaned it up with her watching. It certainly worked for us!! We still "celebrate" and have treats and we will have been blessed with this little angel for three years in October! Heck, we just enjoy parades!!

[feminvstr]

Originally Posted by Rae Rae

If there is no comparison, then are you saying you would hit a child into intimidation?

Rae Rae you are mixing words!!!!!!

Your attitude toward training is outragous!! This is a defendless 5 lbs dog! Hitting a child or hitting a dog is NOT acceptable behavior for an adult!

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by Rae Rae

And when a dog goes potty in the house, they need to be showed what they did wrong, therefore you put it's nose up to what they did, dont put it IN the pee or poo though, that's just sick, but show them what they did. Then you can tell them "NO". From what your saying kinda makes sense, your on the right track, but from what we have learned from the dog training classes, you need to show them what is wrong. If I show my dog his potty in the house and then tell him NO or put him in the cage, (remember this is a dog that is potty trained) then he will know why I am upset with him.

i don't know why your trainer told you to do this, but it is an incorrect way of housebreaking. I'm not on the right track in teh sense of being on my way to knowing what i'm talking about, i'm on THE track. I've studied dog and animal behavior in college, i've read TONs of books on the subject matter, and i've learned from professional dog trainers/behaviorists. i know what i'm talking about. maybe this method worked with your dogs and maybe they're not scared, fearful, or over submissive, but this is not the way to train dogs not to pee in the house. About peeing/pooping in the house and hitting/spanking, here's what a couple behaviorists/trainers had to say about it.

applied animal behaviorist, Dr. McConnell: "dogs who are treated this way cower in terror (not guilt) when their owners return home but are much more likely to defecate on the rug out of nervousness or fear in the house, because who knows what that maniac will do next time he comes home."

dog trainer, Kathy Santos: 'never, never yell at a puppy for making a mistake in the house.' 'venting your frustration would only suceed in scaring the puppy/dog and perhaps promoting submissive urination or worse a dog who goes into hiding when he goes to the bathroom-location unknown.'

and the ever popular Ceasar Millan: "hitting a dog isn't acceptable. You cannot use fear as a means of making an animal behave, it doesn't work. Showing an animal strong leadership and giving it rules is not hte same thing as instilling fear and punishing it."

[michiko]

I really liked the original post. We aren't perfect. And it is beautiful thing that we can admit something that we should regret. Recognizing and having an awareness about our own mistake is a big step, and I am so glad that the original poster recognize that and try to work on fixing the problem. So Kudo to you.

Then the other hand.. it is interesting to see how people can get really defensive. Anyway.. I don't even believe in any type of violence. Hitting or Yelling or anything. No I am not perfect and I might raise my voice. But I do know when I do that and I recognize that it is bad. I wouldn't be defensive about it because violence of any kinds (small or big) shouldn't be happening. As I work with a lot of survivors of child abuse, I can tell you how much it has affected them in their daily lives. I think it is the same way with a yorkie or any other dogs. I mean.. for you to spank them with newspaper, it might be like a child being hit by a thick book. I cannot imagine. It is a controlling behavior. What happens... if your yorkie still doesn't listen to you, would you hit her/him a little harder.. and then what.. It never ends. Those who are abused as children or as dogs.. are put in adoptions... or foster home.. Very sad indeed.

And I cannot agree more with Stacy, Kimberly and Kalina.. Anyway.. it is just my opinion..

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by feminvstr

Rae Rae you are mixing words!!!!!!

Your attitude toward training is outragous!! This is a defendless 5 lbs dog! Hitting a child or hitting a dog is NOT acceptable behavior for an adult!

I'm mixing my words? Read what I said!!! I said in one of my posts, if not more, that I am talking about the dogs that I've owend that have been about 70lbs!! Did you not read my comment about how I would be afraid to spank a yorkie?!?!?!?!?!?! WOW....

And attitude toward training? Did you also skip over the part when I said i dont hit as a training method???!?!?!?!...Once again, WOW...I'm speechless. I love you how can say something, then people twist your words and comment back on what they twisted your words into.

And as for spanking a child and/or dog, like I said, it's an endless debate. I don't think I would ever be able to spank my child, but I'm not a parent so I don't know. But I don't judge people who do spank (not abuse, but spank) because I'm not a parent, and honestly I can't say if I would I wouldn't hit my child. I dont think I would, but until that day comes I cant say for sure.

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by kalina82

i don't know why your trainer told you to do this, but it is an incorrect way of housebreaking. I'm not on the right track in teh sense of being on my way to knowing what i'm talking about, i'm on THE track. I've studied dog and animal behavior in college, i've read TONs of books on the subject matter, and i've learned from professional dog trainers/behaviorists. i know what i'm talking about. maybe this method worked with your dogs and maybe they're not scared, fearful, or over submissive, but this is not the way to train dogs not to pee in the house. About peeing/pooping in the house and hitting/spanking, here's what a couple behaviorists/trainers had to say about it.

applied animal behaviorist, Dr. McConnell: "dogs who are treated this way cower in terror (not guilt) when their owners return home but are much more likely to defecate on the rug out of nervousness or fear in the house, because who knows what that maniac will do next time he comes home."

dog trainer, Kathy Santos: 'never, never yell at a puppy for making a mistake in the house.' 'venting your frustration would only suceed in scaring the puppy/dog and perhaps promoting submissive urination or worse a dog who goes into hiding when he goes to the bathroom-location unknown.'

and the ever popular Ceasar Millan: "hitting a dog isn't acceptable. You cannot use fear as a means of making an animal behave, it doesn't work. Showing an animal strong leadership and giving it rules is not hte same thing as instilling fear and punishing it."

ONCE AGAIN!!! I'm not talking about training, I'm talking about when the dog disobeys and they KNOW they are doing wrong, after they are trained. Big difference hear. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your reply since you obviously aren't even responding to what I said. I agree it's not right to hit a PUPPY while it's being trained. Can I make that any more clearer for you? So yeah for TRAINING, you are right...but please, read my posts carefully before you respond to them.

[kalina82]

Originally Posted by Rae Rae

ONCE AGAIN!!! I'm not talking about training, I'm talking about when the dog disobeys and they KNOW they are doing wrong, after they are trained. Big difference hear. I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your reply since you obviously aren't even responding to what I said. I agree it's not right to hit a PUPPY while it's being trained. Can I make that any more clearer for you? So yeah for TRAINING, you are right...but please, read my posts carefully before you respond to them.

training or disiplining later in life, its the same thing. hitting will give you the same reaction at any time in their life whether you just started doing it when they're older and they're already trained OR if you start doing it while your training a puppy. Hitting increases fear and terror, plain and simple. it does not show what's right or wrong at any point in a dogs life, young or old, big or small.

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by kalina82

training or disiplining later in life, its the same thing. hitting will give you the same reaction at any time in their life whether you just started doing it when they're older and they're already trained OR if you start doing it while your training a puppy. Hitting increases fear and terror, plain and simple. it does not show what's right or wrong at any point in a dogs life, young or old, big or small.

It doesn't? Then explain why all of my dogs have never had a fear, and they know if they are doing something that is bad, like going into the garbage, and I grab a paper..they get away from the garbage? Now that atleast one of you finally see that I am talking about discipline, NOT training, can we just agree to disagree? I understand where youre coming from, I'm being openminded, I dont care how others raise their dogs and don't tell others how to raise their dogs, therefore I expect you guys do do the same. When you guys own a dog remotely like the dog I have right now, I would love to see how you guys react, and if you come up with a way to handle a dog that attacks people who aren't in his family and constantly tests his owners by doing what he has been trained NOT to do, then tell me what I should do, I would gladly take that advice. Until then, like I said, don't tell me how to raise my dog when we've raised numerous dogs and have been to training classes with them, and have not had any problems until the one we have now, who it's "in his blood" to attack (his mother was a biter also, and she honestly shouldn't have been breed, but we didnt know this).

[MeganS]

I'm not even going to mention the spanking (yet) but here's one things I noticed in your post, Rae Rae. you said to "shove their nose right up to it." that is absolutly NOT what you are supposed to do. that makes them ashamed to go potty at all. shoving their noses in it makes them think, "I'm not supposed to go potty it's bad."

when you catch your dog going potty in the house, you don't hit them, don't scream, don't flip out. just pick them up (if theyre small) say NO in a very firm voice (not yelling) and take them to the proper place where they are supposed to go. positive re-inforcement works better than flipping out every time your dog has an accident. (this last party was directed to no one imperticular..just in general)

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by MeganS

I'm not even going to mention the spanking (yet) but here's one things I noticed in your post, Rae Rae. you said to "shove their nose right up to it." that is absolutly NOT what you are supposed to do. that makes them ashamed to go potty at all. shoving their noses in it makes them think, "I'm not supposed to go potty it's bad."

when you catch your dog going potty in the house, you don't hit them, don't scream, don't flip out. just pick them up (if theyre small) say NO in a very firm voice (not yelling) and take them to the proper place where they are supposed to go. positive re-inforcement works better than flipping out every time your dog has an accident. (this last party was directed to no one imperticular..just in general)

And if you believe its not good to put a dogs nose up to the mess, then don't do it. I will train my dog however I want to, and I will LET you train your dog however you want too. None of my dogs have EVER EVER EVER thought that because I showed them their mess and said "No" that I meant they can't go to the bathroom, they understood that it meant to NOT go in the house, of course this is also with other potty training techniques like praising them when they do go outside, and after they eat taking them outside until they go and not letting them back in until they go. If this has worked with my dogs, I'm sure it has worked for others, therefore I don't appreciate you telling me it won't work.

[MeganS]

Originally Posted by Rae Rae

It doesn't? Then explain why all of my dogs have never had a fear, and they know if they are doing something that is bad, like going into the garbage, and I grab a paper..they get away from the garbage?

he would be fully trained if you didn't need the paper anymore. I'm not saying that my dogs (or myself) are perfect. far from it infact. but if you still have to "threaten" (I use that term loosly) him with the paper, then he doesn't think, "I'm not allowed to be in the garbage." instead he thinks, "I don't want to get hit." being able to say NO and having them not go near it, that's what being trained is. not them being afraid of the newspaper so they won't do it.

I'm sorry. if that's how you feel dogs should be trained than so be it. I disagree with you, but I'm not you. I don't condone any type of violence (yes, I consider any form of hitting to be violence). especially when used on an animal.