hitting with newspaper???

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by Susanbee51

I have a six year old, 6 lb female yorkie. Ooops, front paws on pee pad, and potty's on the floor, hit or swat her, NOT!! Ooops, does not bark to go outside to potty and pees at the back door, hit or swat her, NOT! Ooops when in heat, she seems to have a weaker bladder. She goes potty on the floor away from her pee pad, hit or swat her, NOT. Ooops, I am gone too long and she goes potty, and not on the pee pad, hit or swat her, NOT!! Would I tap her on the nose because of any of these incidents? NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!

I'm not talking about a tiny yorkie, I'm talking about a dog 10x the wieght of your dog. Don't know if you read that or not in my posts.

[Rae Rae]

Originally Posted by kaymo

Rae Rae you also mentioned that you put your dog in his crate when he runs off and comes back. You do realize that crates are not to be used for discipline right? Maybe you should seriously think about getting a new trainer. I say this in all sincerity because there are some very well respected people on this thread with excellent credentials as well as some famous pet behaviorist/trainers who are giving the opposite advice than what you were given. Please please for the sake of your pets and you consider getting a new trainer.

Yeah because then he will think that everytime he needs to go in the kennel it's because he was bad...but that's not true with him. No need to explain though, because I'm sick of having to explain things to people on here who are acting like they know everything (not saying your one of them) and things just going back and forth.

And to tell you the truth, from my experience raising dogs, my mom's experience raising dogs all her life, and my dads, and everyone else around me, and the numerous trainers we have had, and just the fact that we KNOW these people in real life not online, I would go w/ what I already do. You might disagree, like others on here, but if we had no problems w/ my other dogs, I really don't care. And honeslty, I don't think anyone on here would be able to last 5hours with my dog, I'm sure that if a lot of people had my dog, they would get rid of him or abuse him.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Rae Rae

Anyways, someone on here taught me about a trick w/ holding the dog down to help w/ his dominating personality, so next time I see him I am going to try that. W/ my dog it probably won't work, but I'm atleast going to give it a shot cuz theirs really nothing to lose. I'll let you know though if things get better

Well if you want to get your face ripped off - but whomever is giving you this advice is using old training and it doesn't work. If you go on the internet you will find trainings now saying that was bad advise and you are putting yourself in danger with your face close to a fear aggressive dog.

I do rescue and I work with many dogs that have come into my home that have been abused (hit) and I spend a great deal of my time studying on what works on dogs and working with the biters. I personally have to commit myself to them as rescue cannot adopt them out again or we would be sued so I live with 4 biters and I can tell you that positive training goes a lot further than fear dominance. I am also 57 years of age and have had dogs my entire life and I consult with many behavorists when it comes to the rescues.
Hopefully through all of these threads you will think about what people have said and do some of your own research so you and your family and the dog can have a happy life together.

HISTORY & MISCONCEPTIONS OF DOMINANCE THEORY
[ABOUT THE ALPHA ROLL]


Note: The information in the following article came from an interview with Dr. Ian Dunbar, who spent nine years studying the social behavior of dogs during the study mentioned below. In an earlier version of this article, Dr. L. David Mech was credited with the 30-year study. This was a mistake. The researcher who conducted the study was Dr. Frank Beach. An effort has been made to correct this error. However, if you know of a place where the original article was published, please notify the editor and request a correction.
The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies:
These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life.
The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?
.
Finally, after the studies, the researchers made cavalier extrapolations from wolf-dog, dog-dog, and dog-human based on their "findings." Unfortunately, this nonsense still abounds.
So what's the truth? The truth is dogs aren't wolves. Honestly, when you take into account the number of generations past, saying "I want to learn how to interact with my dog so I'll learn from the wolves" makes about as much sense as saying, "I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!"

Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings:

Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy.
Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable.
When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments."
Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are.
The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing.
There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic.
A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator.
The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because...
Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals.
Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it.
"Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less.
So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?

Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble.
To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition.
Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination.
Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy.
Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own.

In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College, co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)...

"I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy."

That pretty much sums it up, don't you think?

Melissa Alexander
mcalex@connectexpress.com
copyright 2001 Melissa C. Alexander

[livingdustmops]

Here is another article that is in the July 2006 issue of Whole Dog Journal.
Part 1

Biscuits, Not Rolls
Why you should never use the “alpha roll” (and what to do instead).

By Pat Miller
Teddy’s owners were distraught as they explained to me on the phone why they had called. Their veterinarian had told them that their nine-week-old Golden Retriever puppy was “dominant aggressive” because he was biting their hands. He had advised them to alpha-roll the pup every time he tried to bite or otherwise challenge their authority. They’d been following the vet’s instructions for a week, and Teddy’s aggression was getting seriously worse. They feared they would have to euthanize their pup. We made an emergency same-day appointment for a behavior consultation.
I found Teddy to be a somewhat assertive puppy, who enjoyed actively exploring the world with his mouth, as normal puppies do. Like many assertive, excitable pups, Teddy also got increasingly aroused when his owners protested his needle-sharp-toothed explorations on their skin. The more they protested, the more excited (and mouthier) he got. Hence the veterinarian’s all-too-common misdiagnosis of “dominance aggression” and his woefully inappropriate prescription of alpha-rolling the pup to put him in his place.
Rolling the dice
The alpha-roll consists of physically rolling a dog onto his side or back and holding him there until he stops resisting or struggling, supposedly submitting to your superior authority.
Popularized by the monks of New Skete in their dog-training books (such as How to Be Your Dog’s Best Friend) in the 1980s, the technique is a truly unfortunate and dangerous interpretation of a normal canine social behavior. When approached by a higher-status dog, a lower-ranking member of the pack may first avert and lower his head and shoulders, then voluntarily lie down on the ground and perhaps roll onto his side or back as an appeasement or deference gesture. Typically, when an appeasement gesture is used, the higher-ranking canine has no need to assert himself by forcibly flattening the lower-ranking dog to the ground; the subordinate is already there!
Job Michael Evans, one of the New Skete monks responsible for writing "How to Be Your Dog’s Best Friend," later left the order, and subsequently stated he regretted including the now-controversial technique in the book. While he didn’t go as far as to say the alpha roll was ineffective or inappropriate, he did say he felt it wasn’t safe for use by the general public.
Modern behavior professionals who are well-educated in the science of behavior and learning go much further, denouncing the risky technique along with other methods based in faulty dominance theory.
The most obvious negative consequence of techniques that encourage owners to physically overpower and intimidate their canine companions is the possibility of scaring or coercing the dog into defending himself. He reacts aggressively in return, angering or frightening his owner, who often responds by escalating his own level of violence. Before you know it, the relationship between the two is seriously, sometimes irreparably, damaged.
Despite compelling evidence that physical intimidation does more harm than good, some trainers today (indeed, some very high-profile ones) are stubbornly attached to the forced roll-over, cloaking it in new-age terms and turning a blind eye to the damage done to relationships between dogs and their humans in the process.
Questions of appropriateness aside, it takes someone skilled in handling dogs to be able to alpha-roll a dog without significant risk to human safety – which is at least in part why one television show where the technique is frequently used includes a “Don’t try this at home”-style disclaimer. It’s also why trainers who employ methods such as the alpha roll talk about being bitten as “part of the job,” while those who use more appropriate, nonconfrontational approaches are more likely to keep their skins intact.
Canine as a second language
Again, the alpha roll is supposed to mimic the behavior of the “top dog” in a pack, and send the message, “I’m the boss of you!” But one huge error in alpha-roll logic is the belief that we can successfully pretend to be dogs in our interactions with our canine companions. Dogs know we’re not dogs, and any attempt on our part to mimic their language is doomed to failure.
Dogs are masters at speaking and reading canine body language. Their communications to each other are often subtle and nuanced, a furry ballet designed to keep peace in the pack. Our efforts to use canine body communications are oafish in comparison – and I imagine that our dogs are alternately amused, confused, nonplussed, and terrified by our clumsy attempts to speak their language.
Violence occurs between dogs within established social groups when the communication system breaks down; it’s a sign of an unhealthy pack relationship. Ethology studies from the 1970s and 1980s suggest that canine social structure holds together because appeasement behaviors are offered by subordinate members, not because higher-ranking members aggressively demand subservience. Instead, successful pack leaders were observed to calmly control the good stuff – an approach frequently suggested by today’s modern, positive trainers as a much safer, more appropriate, and effective method for creating a harmonious mixed-species social group.
In her book, Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals, Dr. Karen Overall agrees, stating, “The behavior of the lower status individuals, not the higher ranking one, is what determines the relative hierarchical rank. Truly high-ranking animals are tolerant of lower-ranking ones.”
Methods that encourage dogs to offer deference behaviors, and then reward them for it, are a much closer approximation of actual pack behavior – and easier for us to emulate successfully – than any application of force. Use biscuits (training treats), not (alpha) rolls!

[livingdustmops]

Part 2
Establishing leadership
The Monks, and others like them, didn’t have it all wrong. It is important that your dog perceive his humans as higher-ranking member of your collective multi-species social group. It is far better, safer, and ultimately more effective, however, to accomplish this through offered deference rather than forced dominance.
In his text, Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training, Volume Two: Etiology and Assessment of Behavior Problems, Steven R. Lindsay, a dog behavior consultant in Philadelphia, says, “A wise lupine leader avoids unnecessary dominance contests and assertions of authority.”
Lindsay also cites a 1988 study (E. Fonberg, “Dominance and Aggression”), noting that dominance that is established without resorting to aggression appears to be more stable than dominance that is maintained by constant vigilance and displays of strength.
There is a multitude of ways to establish appropriate social hierarchy without resorting to aggression. No, you don’t have to go through all doorways first, nor do you have to eat before your dog does. You can simply wait for and/or encourage your dog to offer deference behaviors in order to make good stuff happen, while at the same time you make sure that pushy behavior doesn’t result in him getting good stuff.
Your dog’s driving ambition in life is to get good stuff. Some owners and trainers express concern that teaching the dog that he can get you to click! and give him a treat by offering certain behaviors elevates his status because he’s controlling you. In reality, a dog’s psychological response to deference behaviors appears to so hardwired that if a dog repeatedly performs them, he becomes deferent. It’s not just a role he’s playing, like an actor. If he does deference, he is deferent. He can’t help it.
Deference behaviors you can use to your relationship advantage include:
• Wait at the door. Dog sits and waits to go through a door, even a wide open one, until you give him permission to move forward (good stuff = go out and have fun).
• Wait for your dinner. Dog sits and waits to eat his meal until you give him permission to eat (good stuff = eat food!).
• Wait to get in car. Dogs sits and waits outside car while door is opened, hatchback is lifted, or tailgate lowered, until you give him permission to jump in (good stuff = go somewhere in the car and have fun).
• Wait to get out of the car. Dog sits and waits in vehicle while car door is opened, hatchback is lifted, or tailgate lowered, until you give him permission to jump out (good stuff = get out of car and have fun).
• Wait to get out of kennel, crate, or exercise pen. (Good stuff = get out of kennel, crate, or pen and get attention and have fun.)
• Sit for your leash. Dog sits calmly to go out for a walk while leash is attached to collar (good stuff = go for walk).
• Ask to be petted. Dog sits and waits politely at your feet to be petted rather than jumping up, pawing, or nudging you for attention (good stuff = petting and attention).
• Ask for permission to jump on sofa or bed. Dog sits and waits to be invited onto furniture instead of jumping up uninvited (good stuff = lying on soft, comfortable surface and getting attention).
In each case, the dog learns to offer deference behavior in order to get the desired “good stuff” result. Appropriate (deference) behavior moves him closer to his goal; inappropriate behavior makes the good stuff go away (see “Oops, You Lose!” below).
Happy endings
That phone call from Teddy’s owners came almost 10 years ago, early in my career as a professional behavior consultant. Although I had handled many aggressive dogs during the 20 years I worked at the Marin Humane Society, I had not yet worked with a lot of aggression-modification cases professionally. I agreed to see Teddy, with the understanding that I would refer him to someone more experienced if I felt I wasn’t capable of handling his case.
He turned out to be one of the simplest aggression cases I’ve ever worked with. He just needed his people to stop frightening him with their unpredictable eruptions of violence so he could stop having to defend himself.
We began training with clicks and treats. Teddy loved the clicker game, and caught on very quickly to the concept that a “click!” equals “treat” – and even better, that he could make the click! happen by offering one of a growing list of desirable behaviors. We used a tether to restrain Teddy during training so if he did do inappropriate mouthing we could simply say “Oops!” and step out of reach of his nasty-sharp baby teeth.
In the very first session his arousal and biting lessened noticeably. By the time I returned for the second, the mouthing problem was 95 percent resolved, Teddy’s owners were tearfully grateful, and we happily moved on with his basic training.
Since Teddy, I’ve lost count of the number of “aggression” cases I’ve handled where the alpha roll was the clear and present cause of a dog’s increasing aggression. A frightening number of puppy/dog owners are still counseled by their veterinarians, trainers, other animal professionals, and well-intentioned friends to alpha roll their uncooperative canines.
It’s always better to get your dog to voluntarily buy into your desired behaviors than to try to force him. That’s the challenge, the joy, and the excitement of positive training. As the supposedly more intelligent species, we should be able to figure out how to get dogs to want to do what we want, including being deferent to us, without the use of force. Biscuits, not rolls!

[michiko]

I didn't know that this thread was still on. This is kinda ridiculous to me.. I always thought it was a common sense not to hit dogs or pups.. or humans.. hmmm.

[sylvan]

great post Cindy

[browniesmom622]

i cant believe this thread turned into a 6 page debate
im very sorry dolcegal2002 ur thread turned into this
now how about we go back to her topic

[PlatinumYorkies]

You NEVER...HIT, TAP, SPANK, A ANIMAL...Some humans...well that is against the law also. It is wrong, I wish someone would hit or swat ANYTHING in my eye sight with a newspaper....Tolerance, and patience is a must when potty training a dog, or a child.....for 4 days Monte pooped 1 inch away from his pad, oh well...he has hit the mark before, and has s**t it since...TIME, Tolerance, Patience!!! If you can't, no need to own a dog, and don't get me started on the people who shouldn't be allowed to have children....

[i<3my_yorkie]

I haven't read every post on here because that would take a while, but I think it has gotten away from the point of the original post. My best friend had a vicious dog for years. He was nice to me sometimes, and he hated all males, human that is, and all other dogs. They finally put him down at 8 years old because he bit my friend in the face causing her to get 5 stitches in her lip. Every dog is different. But they never hit him. I think his problem was lack of training, but not everyone is going to agree with you. I hope rae rae's dog turns around with training before he hurts anyone. I took my dog to a trainer, because I'm not an expert, so I have no professional opinion. So I hope this comment has no negative affect on anyone. I've learned many things because of this site and everyone on here seems very knowledgable.

[GeorgiesMomma]

Originally Posted by chachi

Certain subjects get very strong opinions and spanking a dog is one of those subjects. I dont agree with spanking a dog because I did it wth Chachi and he started flinching. I do know other people who do it though and their dogs are unaffected. I am sorry someone pmed you they really should not have done that.

I really agree that someone should not have PMed you, and I am sorry that happened. First off I have never ever hit Georgie, but that's me. I am one of the people that reports animal abuse and I am adament about loving your dog. I have always thought of YT as a place that we can tell each other how we feel within reason of course and people would be okay with it. I posted several posts about seatbelt wearing in off topic and no one got mad or told me I was wrong or vice versa (at least I hope not). I like the agree to disagree idea as long as someone is not being abusive

[Dragonfly]

I Have a male yorkie that is 2 years old this wee wee pad was in the upstair bathroom, beacause the smaller one was downstair but back to the paper thing, my husband would hold out his foot so wiggley couldn't go in with him before long wiggle was biting his foot and who ever would go in there. Now Wiggley is in is kennel house and doesn't use the bathroom in his house waits then the door is open and he runs out. But as of this dayif you go in there and he's in the house he goes with you or you get a nip.

[Francie]

[QUOTE=livingdustmops]Part 2
Really interesting Post Cindy....I used to have the "The Monks of New Skeete" book!


Francie

[Dragonfly]

My little ones run like crazy outside on the grass, and sometimes i cannot get to them, and sometime it upset me but I do not spank them, there doing it for the freedom, and the grass, most times they will come when i call them by name. My babies loves to give hugs and kisses and I love getting them.



Ellen 7 yorkies

[miezzi]

Originally Posted by Rae Rae

I'm not talking about a tiny yorkie, I'm talking about a dog 10x the wieght of your dog. Don't know if you read that or not in my posts.

Then why bring this up on a YORKIE forum. But no matter how much the dog weighed, I would NEVER condone spanking or tapping or anything of that nature on any poor defensless dog. POSITIVE reinforcment goes along way here.

And to the original poster....you know your mistake now. No one is perfect. Its ok. Just know that there has been some WONDERFUL advise here on this thread, by MANY reputable people who deal with this. And I want to thank LIVINGDUSTMOPS for supplying us with those wonderful articles about this issue.


And Rae Rae...I feel sorry for you if you feel the only way to discipline your animals is by negativity and fear. That is a shame. Maybe you should not have animals is that is the way you are going to discipline them.