docking

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by gemy

Anyhow just my thoughts. I think that a consistent point of view, if your point of view is to avoid pain based on human predilections, then ban crop dock dew claw removal and spaying and neutering.

No, that is not my point of view of all. Removal of dew claws, spaying, and neutering ALL have proven benefits that outweigh the pain (perceived or otherwise) to the animal. If 3 out of 4 research articles that mention tail docking at all (do a Google Scholar on canine tail docking) claim that the preponderance of evidence shows that tail docking is unnecessary and unethical, then that's the kind of information that forms my opinion. I've said what I have to say about this, presented research articles, and provided links. I do respect you all, and I agree with you on many other issues, but I agree to disagree on this one issue.

[yorkietalkjilly]

Google "tail injuries in dogs" and you will see that it is far more common than reported to vets. How many tail injuries do you think are actually taken to the vet?

[gemy]

Originally Posted by pstinard

No, that is not my point of view of all. Removal of dew claws, spaying, and neutering ALL have proven benefits that outweigh the pain (perceived or otherwise) to the animal. If 3 out of 4 research articles that mention tail docking at all (do a Google Scholar on canine tail docking) claim that the preponderance of evidence shows that tail docking is unnecessary and unethical, then that's the kind of information that forms my opinion. I've said what I have to say about this, presented research articles, and provided links. I do respect you all, and I agree with you on many other issues, but I agree to disagree on this one issue.

Actually what I meant by "your point of view" was the ASPCA not you personally.

I have said what I wanted to see in terms of cropping and docking and the research.

[luvlee]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Google "tail injuries in dogs" and you will see that it is far more common than reported to vets. How many tail injuries do you think are actually taken to the vet?

I guess if the yorkie's tail perpetually drags on the floor, then there's a an increased likelihood of breakage. However, even if there's a greater preponderance of broken tails than actually reported to the vets, I'm nearly certain that the Yorkshire Terrier does not suffer MORE tail breaks than other tailed animals. If so, I'd like to see the studies.

If tail breaks are a regular & dangerous occurrence in the animal world, then we should remove the tails of all animals - except for the ones that use them, like for hanging in trees or something.

People break their arms & legs all the time, yet we don't remove the appendage. Or even a part less useful - we still try to repair it.

Just my thoughts...

[yorkietalkjilly]

Yorkies do have long thin tails they carry out behind them rather than roached more safely over the back or having the thick, sturdy tail of the Lab or GSD but knowing how genetically the breed is so prey driven and will go under lawn furniture or through snaggled fencing or anything in a heartbeat - whereas a greyhound or less prey-driven dog might not - I'm glad I have one with a docked tail. And those zillions of pages on Google asking about tail injuries and various medical conditions in dogs such as limber tail and on and on are empirical evidence that problems with the tail are not insignificant. And when one factors in that the people going online are the people that care enough to go online and ask to the tune of page after page after page, one wonders how many dogs go untreated or even unrecognized as having tail injury problems?

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by gemy

Actually what I meant by "your point of view" was the ASPCA not you personally.

Oh, okay. I have some issues with the ASPCA too.

Originally Posted by gemy

I have said what I wanted to see in terms of cropping and docking and the research.

Me too.

[Teresiana]

Originally Posted by luvlee

My breeder is a quality show breeder with 35 yrs experience. He's VP of the local YTCA chapter. He leaves tails in tact because he now he participates in European shows. As I've said in other posts, I bought the breeder - so having the tail intact didn't make a difference. AND when you see beautiful puppies with tails, you simply melt! IMHO, I think people looking for pets will buy beautiful Yorkshire Terriers even with tails intact.

Take care. Tracey

You must have a Wingold Yorkie. Tail or no tail, Tom's dogs are some of the most stunning I've ever seen!! I almost got my last Yorkie from him. I decided to go with another breeder who also keeps the tails of some of her pups, including mine...although I requested her tail be kept. Btw, I didn't find anything "wrong" with Tom. In fact, he is the perfect gentleman & incredibly smart. I just knew when I met my current breeder that she was "the one".

Originally Posted by DBlain

The thing is that unless you pick out a puppy before it's born (which is something I would never do) most yorkie breeders go ahead and dock since they say that's what people want.

Maybe I'm an exception to the rule, but I picked my last puppy before she was born. I actually picked my breeder & waited for my preferred parents to breed. During that time, I developed a good relationship with my breeder & SHE was the one who actually picked my puppy. It couldn't have worked out better. In fact, Prima fits into our household PERFECTLY. Honestly, I couldn't be happier with the whole experience.

[Mistymillar]

Oh my, over 50 posts the controversial subjects get all the attention. There have been some very intellectual posts here, lots of research that seems to prove that tiny puppies do feel pain and tiny puppies don't feel pain.
I rarely get upset and know the last time I got annoyed (probably one of the very few times) it was about this very subject as a poster considered docking an older dog.
I don't have to make a decision, I live in UK and it is illegal to dock but want to throw in my tuppence worth.
Circumcision - yes this is widely accepted for boys normally due to religion, tradition or health issues. Female circumcision? Not so widely accepted but nonetheless still a fact of life, why is this so much more shocking than for boys?
Feet binding? Billions of people practiced this for years, tradition? Religion? Acceptable?
What would happen in a world where it was considered "right" to amputate a toe, or finger or ear, would we run frantically to surgery with our newborn human babies? In this century we can choose to have all sorts of surgery, there are many people suffering from disorders who want to remove limbs, sexual organs (not necessarily talking about gender transitions here) do we as a caring, nurturing, human race support this?
As adults we can choose to fix our nose cos it is a little bent, snip our eyelids cos they are a little baggy, pull our ears to the back of our head cos we want to get rid of our wrinkles and look younger (or maybe we want to look like a startled blow up doll) but the point is this as adults we can choose some of these procedures but we can't choose to remove a limb.
Our animals are in our care, if there is any risk of hurting them apart from pain to save their lives, are we really doing the right thing supporting amputations? Is it for the betterment of the breed? If so, by now surely the tails would just stop growing by themselves.

Not gonna tell you whether I am for or against..........can you guess?

.

[yorkietalkjilly]

On the other hand, since the blind/deaf dog can't see or hear because his brain cannot process those minimal impulses yet and doesn't feel pain beyond a few minutes if it even can feel pain, isn't it worth some short period of discomfort for him to be essentially free of risk for injury or medical conditions with that part of his body for the rest of his life? Taking the end of a tail off a 3 day old undeveloped infant canine is hardly anywhere like cutting off a foot or removing a hand in a person who will need those parts to fully function and work effectively. My dogs has a short tail and gets about and lives, expresses himself just fine. I couldn't hold down my job without my hand, nor even care for myself adequately. If anyone doubts for one minute that tail injuries and tail ailments are not fairly routine in dogs, Google the term "tail injury in dogs" and terms like it. It is routinely discussed as a rather common occurrence.

[luvlee]

Originally Posted by Teresiana

You must have a Wingold Yorkie. Tail or no tail, Tom's dogs are some of the most stunning I've ever seen!! I almost got my last Yorkie from him. I decided to go with another breeder who also keeps the tails of some of her pups, including mine...although I requested her tail be kept. Btw, I didn't find anything "wrong" with Tom. In fact, he is the perfect gentleman & incredibly smart. I just knew when I met my current breeder that she was "the one". .

YES. I have a Wingold - now I think he's "Tom's Yorkies" but his website stinks. By the looks of the website, some people would say, "meh!" But his pups are delicious. His lines produce the same looks & temperments - which I love.

But, I'd like to know who's "the one" for you? As you know, these breeders don't always have pups, so I like to keep recommendations handy.

I'm adopting a Biewer in August, so I'm not looking for another yorkie-baby just yet. After 2 furbabies though, I could probably handle a dozen!

I can't get enough!! Have a great day.

Tracey

[dottiesyrky]

A very interesting and sometimes very academic treatment of this issue. Having read most of the thread I am not sure I know which way to think. The pros and cons are hard to rate to come up with a definitive answer.
If I may lighten the technical, moral and medical tone......and hope I do not offend! But having walked dogs like Maltese and Papillons with long bushy tails, I found that the poop does not always follow gravity and land neatly on the ground. I was left with a messy situation that usually entailed (sorry about the pun) washing the whole tail. So that is one good practical reason for me to have a short tailed dog. Sorry for the lowering of the thread's tone!

[luvlee]

Originally Posted by dottiesyrky

But having walked dogs like Maltese and Papillons with long bushy tails, I found that the poop does not always follow gravity and land neatly on the ground. I was left with a messy situation that usually entailed (sorry about the pun) washing the whole tail. So that is one good practical reason for me to have a short tailed dog. Sorry for the lowering of the thread's tone!

LOL & sadly TRUE!! However, my groomer is adept at cutting Lucy's hair at the base of the tail to leave an open area so poops don't attach. If it's a loose stool though, not only does the tail get some but so do the legs.

In that case, I carry her back into my home with butt facing away and give the whole back end a once over in the sink.

Tracey

[dottiesyrky]

LOL! I am not alone! Lovely image of your solution to the problem with the butt in the sink! Also, good idea to get the groomer to do special trim. Thank you ;-)

[Teresiana]

Originally Posted by luvlee

YES. I have a Wingold - now I think he's "Tom's Yorkies" but his website stinks. By the looks of the website, some people would say, "meh!" But his pups are delicious. His lines produce the same looks & temperments - which I love.

But, I'd like to know who's "the one" for you? As you know, these breeders don't always have pups, so I like to keep recommendations handy.

I'm adopting a Biewer in August, so I'm not looking for another yorkie-baby just yet. After 2 furbabies though, I could probably handle a dozen!

I can't get enough!! Have a great day.

Tracey

Actually, I think one of the requirements for a great breeder is a bad website. LOL But anyone looking for a "real" Yorkie in the NJ area would be nuts not to consider Tom or Rita Piko. My breeder is Susan Dodge of Clover Hill Yorkies in NH. I LOVE her. I sent you a PM so I don't hijack this thread anymore than I have.

And yes...the poopy butt syndrome is a small pay off

[lisaly]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

Yorkies do have long thin tails they carry out behind them rather than roached more safely over the back or having the thick, sturdy tail of the Lab or GSD but knowing how genetically the breed is so prey driven and will go under lawn furniture or through snaggled fencing or anything in a heartbeat - whereas a greyhound or less prey-driven dog might not - I'm glad I have one with a docked tail. And those zillions of pages on Google asking about tail injuries and various medical conditions in dogs such as limber tail and on and on are empirical evidence that problems with the tail are not insignificant. And when one factors in that the people going online are the people that care enough to go online and ask to the tune of page after page after page, one wonders how many dogs go untreated or even unrecognized as having tail injury problems?

Katie's tail was docked to a beautiful medium length. Her breeder is Canadian, and she competes in European shows and other shows throughout the world. She is leaving the tails of some of her puppies intact. I wouldn't have hesitated to get Katie if she had a full tail, but you raised an excellent point. I have seen Katie stop at nothing to get to her ball if it goes into the middle of dense shrubbery. Her breeder had her back dew claws removed, but she left ones on because it gives them extra traction. From an article written by veterinarian Dr. Chris Zinc, it says, " the dewclaw can dig in for extra traction to prevent unnecessary torque on the front leg. Without the gripping action of the dog's 'thumbs’ there is more stress on the ligaments of
the carpus." I still have to think long and hard on the issue of tail docking. I really would wonder if Katie would injure her tail while playing because of how driven she is. I don't throw her balls into anything unsafe for her, but she loves to catch them midair, and she will take every opportunity to do so. The balls sometimes bounce off of her face and then she's off to retrieve it wherever it goes. I have a difficult time thinking of any dog being in pain, so I need to read more to form my own conclusion about this. I would love to see the YTCA change the standard to allow docked and undocked tails.