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06-13-2013, 04:36 PM | #16 |
♥ Love My Tibbe! ♥ Donating Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: D/FW, Texas
Posts: 22,140
| Here's a link to an abstact on a study I found a while back. Speaks to the fact that most pups settle fairly quickly after the procedure when tail docking was done on a very young pup. Elsevier
__________________ Jeanie and Tibbe One must do the best one can. You may get some marks for a very imperfect answer: you will certainly get none for leaving the question alone. C. S. Lewis |
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06-13-2013, 04:58 PM | #17 | |
Donating YT 500 Club Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: NJ
Posts: 2,194
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__________________ Teresa, Yoshi, Momo & Prima | |
06-13-2013, 05:26 PM | #18 |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
| Here's a link to a video of a vet removing dew claws and docking the tail of a shrieking puppy. Warning: Do not view if you are squeamish about these kinds of things... |
06-13-2013, 06:00 PM | #19 |
YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: MN, USA
Posts: 780
| I just watched the video with my little girls- my 5 year old thinks that she is going to be a vet when she grows up- they all said, "Poor Blazer and Buddy!" and then went and hugged our dogs. They feel bad that our boys went through that when they were new puppies.
__________________ Amanda |
06-13-2013, 08:05 PM | #20 |
YT Addict Join Date: May 2012 Location: secaucus, nj
Posts: 483
| I can't watch the video. Just looking at the vet's face in the clip tells me enough. Part of the problem is that since breeders (the good and bad) never worried about the tail - other than where it's set, there's no telling how the tails will look on yorkies from well-established breeding lines (ie, too long, short, curly, straight, etc.) AKC would have to set forth standards for the tail. That could potentially hurt some breeders who have dogs with poor standard tails. Since the AKC and breeders go hand in hand, it's difficult to say when the practice will stop in the US. Tracey |
06-13-2013, 09:35 PM | #21 |
Donating Senior Yorkie Talker Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: port elizabeth,eastern cape, south africa
Posts: 269
| I know we don't allow it in SA and was a little concerned while reading ads for yorkies for sale overseas saying docked and dew clawed. I can understand the dew claw as I can imagine the damage that can do if it hooks onto something. And I know that people (and I use the term very loosely here as I am sure I could be banned for the word I would like to use) dock the tails of the dogs they use for dogfights. |
06-14-2013, 04:38 AM | #22 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
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Summary and conclusion In summary then, it seems difficult to argue that tail docking, as the widespread practice that it presently is, is justified. It cannot be defended on the basis of arguments from tradition or to satisfy a breed standard created in another time and place. Moreover, there is no clear evidence that any kind of benefit associated with tail docking exists that can outweigh the potential harm that may be caused to the animals involved. There are several reasons that may be used to support tail docking in some breeds, or at least to justify the docking of specific dogs within those breeds. These reasons concern individual dogs that are expected to engage in activities as adults in which tail damage is encountered on a frequent basis, particularly if appropriate veterinary care is unlikely to be available, those in which accumulation of faecal material may become a health issue, those born with deformed or painfully misshapen tails, and those for which the presence of a docked tail may result in a significantly improved quality of life. In all of these cases tail docking of individual dogs could potentially be justified on utilitarian grounds, but only if the expected benefits outweigh the harm that is potentially associated with the docking process, and also only if adequate anaesthesia and analgesia is provided at the time of docking. More difficult, if not impossible, to sustain is the argument that tail docking is justified simply because some humans prefer the docked look or find it more convenient to own a tailless dog. This would constitute an acceptable reason for docking only if it was conclusively demonstrated that absolutely no harm is ever associated with the process. On the contrary, although the potential for harm cannot be proven scientifically for philosophical reasons, available evidence strongly suggests that docking may be associated with both acute and chronic pain. Relevant anatomical and physiological differences between dogs and members of our own species are minimal and there is every reason to suspect that even very young pups do experience substantial pain when their tails are removed, and that they continue to experience pain as the normal physiological processes known to be associated with limb amputation take place. That the docking process occurs just before the critical socialisation period simply makes the practice more difficult to justify, as does the fact that it may leave some dogs with chronic physical problems and possibly unable to communicate effectively with both conspecifics and humans. | |
06-14-2013, 04:44 AM | #23 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
| Quote:
In their discussion of tail docking in dogs, Noonan et al noted that breeders often use the fact that pups either suckle or fall asleep immediately following docking to support their view that the pups do not experience significant pain. However, while such behaviour may indicate that the pain felt during docking is minimal, there is no empirical evidence to support an association between lack of pain and these behaviours. On the contrary, other studies, in which young animals or humans show increased feeding or what is known as a ‘sleeping fit’ following a painful or stressful experience, have concluded that this may be either a displacement activity or an adaptive mechanism which ensures that the baby animal has sufficient nourishment and rest to survive under adverse circumstances. In addition, as discussed in Noonan et al, suckling behaviour may provide analgesia by stimulating the release of endogenous opioids, with oral administration of carbohydrate-laden solutions being commonly used to reduce pain responses in human infants. It is possible, therefore, that pups suckle following docking to reduce docking-associated pain, rather than because the pain they feel is minimal. This issue could be investigated empirically by subjecting puppies to various experiences believed likely to cause pain and noting their responses, particularly whether their sleeping or suckling responses increase or decrease with the magnitude of pain believed to be inflicted, but it would be ethically difficult to justify such a study. | |
06-14-2013, 04:46 AM | #24 |
Donating YT Addict Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Oakland County MI
Posts: 6,190
| I used to love a docked tail if done properly, but aside from show breeders just about everyone else even vets go to short. My sister's yorkie has a stub about 1/4" long which looks very bad. Now that I have Lola who has a tail I love them and hope the practice in the US stops. I know there are some show breeders bucking the trend and one here in MI I was told was recently finished having an intact tail. The thing is that unless you pick out a puppy before it's born (which is something I would never do) most yorkie breeders go ahead and dock since they say that's what people want. I just had this discussion with someone that was preparing to have a litter of parties, I suggested she keep the tails and while she really wanted to was advised against it by her mentor because she was told that buyers would expect a docked tail. I often wonder if we did a poll of YT US members to see if they would prefer a tail or not which would win out, I sort of think it would be in favor of tails.
__________________ Lola my amazing little yorkie-pom Donna Last edited by DBlain; 06-14-2013 at 04:48 AM. |
06-14-2013, 06:08 AM | #25 |
YT 500 Club Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: MN, USA
Posts: 780
| I did ask that Blazer's tail be left intact but because he was a gift to me and the breeder wasn't sure if I was truly going to take him she had his tail docked right along with his littermates' "because that is what people expect" if she ended up having to sell him. His stub is rather short but I leave the hair on it long so it currently looks almost twice as long as it's true length, and like a flag!
__________________ Amanda |
06-14-2013, 06:47 AM | #26 |
YT Addict Join Date: May 2012 Location: secaucus, nj
Posts: 483
| My breeder is a quality show breeder with 35 yrs experience. He's VP of the local YTCA chapter. He leaves tails in tact because he now he participates in European shows. As I've said in other posts, I bought the breeder - so having the tail intact didn't make a difference. AND when you see beautiful puppies with tails, you simply melt! IMHO, I think people looking for pets will buy beautiful Yorkshire Terriers even with tails intact. Take care. Tracey |
06-14-2013, 07:40 AM | #27 | |
Furbutts = LOVE Donating Member Moderator | Quote:
__________________ ~ A friend told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn. ~ °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° Ann | Pfeiffer | Marcel Verdel Purcell | Wylie | Artie °¨¨¨°ºOº°¨¨¨° | |
06-14-2013, 08:00 AM | #28 |
Donating YT Addict Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: SW USA
Posts: 2,505
| #18 tail docking video. I tried to watch it but had to turn the sound on my iPad completely off as my four year old Yorkie boy who was next to me went crazy, barking and trying to get at the iPad. He was so distressed by the crying baby, so it shows that dogs know pain and suffering when they hear it. The video without sound was sad enough! I have no particular views on the procedures except that I wonder why some local anesthetic could not be used to prevent the pain? |
06-14-2013, 08:24 AM | #29 |
YT Addict Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: california
Posts: 405
| Since I got my Niko when he was 6 days old I was with him for his tail and dewclaws removal. I was ambivolent about it but sorry to say gave in to the pressure. Never again. He and I both cried for an hour. I look at his stump and still feel guilty. He's fine. I think one of the reasons I would like a biewer is because the tails are intact. What can we do.to stop the amputation and get the standards changed? Let me know and I'll do my part. As for the pain after and the suckling, I've been with hundreds of infants after circumcisions. The behavior is similar and multiple studies have proven that this a method of pain control as stated above. However we've also had some infants who shut down and won't eat or even use a pacifier. Thank god I had a girl and didn't have to make that decision. |
06-14-2013, 08:40 AM | #30 | |
YT 3000 Club Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Urbana, IL USA
Posts: 3,648
| Quote:
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/081215c.aspx https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FA...l-docking.aspx However, the AKC is firmly entrenched in support of tail docking (cited in the first link to the AVMA). I don't know about any organized efforts opposing tail docking, but I think it ultimately comes down to a three-pronged approach: (1) lobbying legislators to make it illegal, (2) lobbying the AKC and the breed parent clubs to remove docked tails from their breed standards, and (3) educating veterinarians and backyard surgeons to stop docking the tails of dogs because it is animal cruelty. | |
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