Parti Yorkie vs Biewer

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by luvlee

I found the article interesting as well and very easy to understand. It seems to me that the Biewer standard still has significant coloring on the back & head, which would suggest the mix with one other breed. I wonder whether it could be determined which one is the culprit?

I know that Mr. Biewer had other breed dogs. Could DNA determine which breed supplied pie-bald gene?

I've heard different stories as to which other breeds Mr. Biewer had at the time--I'm still waiting for the definitive answer to that question, because that could be the answer to where the piebald gene came from. But yes, DNA analysis could determine which breed supplied the piebald gene.

Originally Posted by luvlee

I have seen all white & other lighter colored partis - which I guess would mean a mix with more than one breed.

There are really good & ethical breeders out there. There are also the GREEDERS, however, who breed everything under the sun. I can see very easily how other breeds could be mixed in - even on purpose - to obtain a desired look.

Thanks again. Keep the information coming!

Tracey

Here is another smoking gun. I was going to propose that someone cross a Biewer to a piebald Maltese to see whether the offspring would be piebald. If the offspring were piebald, that would prove that Biewers definitely carry the piebald gene. (This kind of cross is what geneticists call an allele test.) But I didn't say anything because I thought it would be unethical to ask someone to do that kind of cross. But guess what? While I was googling Biewer and Maltese, I found this ad: MORKIE German Biewer Yorkie / Maltese cross | North Port | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 27676387. Someone has already done the cross, and the result is a piebald dog! Boo-yaaaa!!!!! I will attach a photo of the dog in case the ad disappears.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

I'm sorry, but Heir Biewer only bred Yorkshire Terriers. He was a breeder/shower of yorkies. He did have one other little dog as a pet, I forget the breed, however it was neutered. This information is well documented.

Diana

[scrapindee]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

My puppies are priced no more than any reputable show breeder of any breed asks. I show in the venues in which I'm allowed under AKC judges, I health test my breeding pairs, my puppies have liver panels done along with regular screenings, my contract is more generous than most, I stand behind my breedings. I'm doing all I can... to produce healthy puppies.
And yes they are pretty dang cute too.

And I do the same. And I only breed Biewer to Biewer .

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Originally Posted by pstinard

I've heard different stories as to which other breeds Mr. Biewer had at the time--I'm still waiting for the definitive answer to that question, because that could be the answer to where the piebald gene came from. But yes, DNA analysis could determine which breed supplied the piebald gene.



Here is another smoking gun. I was going to propose that someone cross a Biewer to a piebald Maltese to see whether the offspring would be piebald. If the offspring were piebald, that would prove that Biewers definitely carry the piebald gene. (This kind of cross is what geneticists call an allele test.) But I didn't say anything because I thought it would be unethical to ask someone to do that kind of cross. But guess what? While I was googling Biewer and Maltese, I found this ad: MORKIE German Biewer Yorkie / Maltese cross | North Port | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 27676387. Someone has already done the cross, and the result is a piebald dog! Boo-yaaaa!!!!! I will attach a photo of the dog in case the ad disappears.

I don't think anyone was questioning that the Biewer has the spotting gene were they? If they didn't carry the gene.. they would look just like a standard yorkie.. black and tan. The spotting gene takes away the color thus giving them the White.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

I don't think anyone was questioning that the Biewer has the spotting gene were they? If they didn't carry the gene.. they would look just like a standard yorkie.. black and tan. The spotting gene takes away the color thus giving them the White.

Hi Diana, just because a dog looks piebald doesn't mean that it is caused by a mutation in the piebald gene--there could be other as-yet undiscovered mutations in other genes that could cause the same appearance. I hadn't seen any proof that the Biewer coat color gene is due to a mutation in the MITF (piebald) gene. This Biewer/Maltese cross proves it to me. Maybe others have done this test, but I hadn't come across it yet. To me, the question remains, is the DNA sequence of the mutation in the piebald gene in Biewers the same as the DNA sequence of the mutation in the Maltese (and other breeds with proven piebald genes)? If so, that would prove to me that the origin of the piebald gene in Biewers is a cross of a Yorkshire Terrier with some other breed carrying a piebald gene. Genetically speaking, new mutations don't occur in the exact same place with exactly the same DNA sequence, and the piebald mutations in other breeds have a very distinctive DNA sequence. I don't care what Mr. Biewer said back in the 1980's, if the piebald gene came from some other breed that was crossed into his Yorkshire Terrier lines, then the Biewer is the result of a mixed breed dog. It wasn't necessarily Mr. Biewer who did this--it could have already been in the lines he got from England. I'm just trying to get at the truth.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by pstinard

Hi Diana, just because a dog looks piebald doesn't mean that it is caused by a mutation in the piebald gene--there could be other as-yet undiscovered mutations in other genes that could cause the same appearance. I hadn't seen any proof that the Biewer coat color gene is due to a mutation in the MITF (piebald) gene. This Biewer/Maltese cross proves it to me. Maybe others have done this test, but I hadn't come across it yet. To me, the question remains, is the DNA sequence of the mutation in the piebald gene in Biewers the same as the DNA sequence of the mutation in the Maltese (and other breeds with proven piebald genes)? If so, that would prove to me that the origin of the piebald gene in Biewers is a cross of a Yorkshire Terrier with some other breed carrying a piebald gene. Genetically speaking, new mutations don't occur in the exact same place with exactly the same DNA sequence, and the piebald mutations in other breeds have a very distinctive DNA sequence. I don't care what Mr. Biewer said back in the 1980's, if the piebald gene came from some other breed that was crossed into his Yorkshire Terrier lines, then the Biewer is the result of a mixed breed dog. It wasn't necessarily Mr. Biewer who did this--it could have already been in the lines he got from England. I'm just trying to get at the truth.

Evidently, the Healthgene company knows the answer to this question, because they have a test for the piebald gene in Yorkshire Terriers and Biewers: Parti Color Yorkshire Terrier l Coat Color Test - HealthGene

I have sent them a technical email asking them for details about what they are testing for, and how they determine the difference between the piebald mutation and the normal Yorkshire Terrier MITF gene. If the answer is by the presence of the SINE DNA insertion and/or the length polymorphism in the regulatory region of the piebald version of the MITF gene, then it's case closed for me.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

Yes.. that is the company many of the Parti people use for their color testing and I assume their testing for spotting gene. I hope they answer your question for you and you get what you are looking for.
Diana

[Breny]

Originally Posted by pagonzal

They look so much alike. I know the parti yorkie has a docked tail while the Biewer has a tail. I really like both.

I like them both too !

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

Yes.. that is the company many of the Parti people use for their color testing and I assume their testing for spotting gene. I hope they answer your question for you and you get what you are looking for.
Diana

Yes, I have have heard about the question of whether Biewers have Irish spotting (si) or piebald spotting (sp). They are both different mutations in the same gene. I can't answer that question based on appearance, because I've seen a broad range of degree of spotting in Biewers--some look Irish, and some look more piebald. Supposedly, the piebald gives more variation in the different patterns you see, so that's why I was guessing that Biewers are piebald, but hopefully the testing company will be able to answer the question for certain.

[GreenwoodBiewer]

VetGen - Veterinary Genetic Services

This company also tests for the S locus..

Diana

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by GreenwoodBiewer

VetGen - Veterinary Genetic Services

This company also tests for the S locus..

Diana

Thanks! If I don't get an answer from HealthGene, I'll write to VetGen. Here is a link to all the tests VetGen does for Yorkshire Terriers:

VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - Order Tests

[bchgirl]

The Biewers owned a singular other dog, a neutered Tibetan Terrier. He bought a yorkshire terrier stud, named Steamglen Richard from kennels located in England. He bred Richard virtually to every female he owned. Richard is the grandsire on on both sides of the pedigrees of Fru Fru von Friedheck and Darling von Friedheck. They were the pair which produced the first tri colored puppy.

And across the ocean in the US...Nikko had also purchased a dog from Streamglen. This dog was also on both sides of the pedigree in the tri colored puppy produced.

So any cross breeding that introduced the piebald gene occurred at Streamglen.

From there the path Mr. Biewer took and the US parti breeders took were entirely different.

At this point where the color came from, what breeds are behind the color, the name of the breed...is all moot. Biewers moved much further than Germany and the US. They are recognized as a breed of its own in several countries, in registries recognized by akc, and are shown as such in FCI events.

And on parsons terrier boards people used to argue that the "breed" were jack russells...well guess what...akc recognizes now them as two distinct breeds.

[pstinard]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

The Biewers owned a singular other dog, a neutered Tibetan Terrier. He bought a yorkshire terrier stud, named Steamglen Richard from kennels located in England. He bred Richard virtually to every female he owned. Richard is the grandsire on on both sides of the pedigrees of Fru Fru von Friedheck and Darling von Friedheck. They were the pair which produced the first tri colored puppy.

And across the ocean in the US...Nikko had also purchased a dog from Streamglen. This dog was also on both sides of the pedigree in the tri colored puppy produced.

So any cross breeding that introduced the piebald gene occurred at Streamglen.

From there the path Mr. Biewer took and the US parti breeders took were entirely different.

At this point where the color came from, what breeds are behind the color, the name of the breed...is all moot. Biewers moved much further than Germany and the US. They are recognized as a breed of its own in several countries, in registries recognized by akc, and are shown as such in FCI events.

And on parsons terrier boards people used to argue that the "breed" were jack russells...well guess what...akc recognizes now them as two distinct breeds.

So the piebald trait was already present in Streamglen dogs, and Richard was probably a carrier. Fascinating! Thanks for the information!

[bchgirl]

No not probably. Streamglen Shaun is the common ancestor between the two, however he's on both sides of Mr. Biewer's Streamglen Richard's ped but only a singular time in Streamglen's Milady who is behind the Nikko line.

[Sami_girl]

Originally Posted by Kaity

I am randomly butting in here, and I am not a genetic expert. However I am under the impression if your yorkie came from two traditional yorkies she would have to be a parti. I know any yorkie can be a parti carrier but the biewers are a separately recognized breed that's linage can be traced back to Germany. So your dog would need to have biewer parents, with german lineage. I am not sure if a biewer can have tradition coloring or not. But I think all biewers have to be showing biewer coloring. Also the parents would have long tails, and so would your yorkie because a breeder of biewers would not dock the tail.

Thank you for this. My "breeder" called my dog a Biewer and docked her tail...too short at that. They were basically step up from back yard breeders and I do not believe would know the difference between Biewer and Parti. I did see the parents though and there were traditional Yorkies. So she must be a Parti??