Why 12 Weeks?

[Teresa Ford]

Why 12 Weeks ? I follow the YTCA recommendations and guide lines. I have never seen any adverse effects because a puppy wasn't adopted until they were at least 12 weeks old. Do I believe that all puppies should be placed at 12 weeks ? No. I think some could be placed earlier and be fine and I think some benefit more by staying with the breeder an extra two or three weeks beyond the 12 week age. I feel strongly that every breeder should pay attention to their breed club's recommendations which are based on years and years of combined experience. I know I do not always have an answer. More often than not, I can find someone who has more experience, or can suggest research I can study. If I am in the minority about something, concerning Yorkies I would much rather be safe than sorry. If everyone is telling me the same thing, I pay attention.

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Sounds like pot stirring to me.

So asking a question I genuinely don't get the reasons given for is pot stirring?

Originally Posted by azkaty

This is going to get a whole lot of people going down the nasty road. And it may confuse some new yorkie owners.IMHO.

I am sure that there are going to be some people that chose to get nasty over a question. That's their choice. Fortunately, I have a thick skin. Those that offer information, I'll accept, and those that want to be nasty, I'll not reply in kind, but I will explain myself.
And yes, it may confuse some people, but it may also help to clarify things to others.

Originally Posted by maggiesmom_2007

All I am going to say on this is I personally do not send my pups to their new homes before 12 weeks of age regardless of whether the person is an experienced Yorkie person or not.
I like to make sure my pups have at the very least had 2 sets of shots, are pad trained, have their teeth in order to eat dry kibble. And for me the bite inhibition and other stuff you pointed out is not a cop out. Besides for me I show my Yorkies so unless I know without a doubt that some are going to be pets they stay with me til at the very least 6 months.

Very good! This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Being assured of at least two sets of shots is a very valid reason. Making sure they have their teeth in is another.
And of course, being assured of the potential show quality of an individual is important as well. Thank you for your input.

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

In your explanation, you yourself gave a reason why a pup should no be removed before 12 weeks.

At 8 weeks old, your pup didn't know what food was and had a hypoglycemic episode. Even before joining YT, I had read or heard pups learn about solid foods through their mom. Knowing that, and reading your own testimony, wouldn't Pixie have learned what you were offering her was food if her mother had taught her that? Just asking.

Pixie is not my first puppy. My first yorkie puppy, yes, but not my first puppy. I have raised many dogs over 20 years, from those that stayed with their mothers their whole lives, to those that had to be taken from their mother and hand reared at 2 days old (mom was an EVIL puppy killer.. had I known that, I wouldn't have taken her own, took out half the litter, and I THOUGHT she'd laid on them, until I caught her grabbing and shaking one to death).
Never, until now, have I not known a puppy at 8 weeks old to not recognize food as food. NEVER. I actually questioned her age, in part because of her size, but in part, because in my experience puppies at 8 weeks should know what food is.
I realize that many people raise their dogs differently.. And with the hindsight I have of Pixie likely being a mill puppy.. yes, it would make sense that she wouldn't recognize food. But never have I ever had a house reared puppy not know what food was at 8 weeks. And I was told she was a home reared puppy.
To answer your question, I really don't know. I always start offering gruel to puppies starting 4 weeks. Mom is never there, because the greedy hags would steal the babies gruel, and I have always had puppies dive in their gruel the first time it's offered, if not, the second time. Because of thieving mothers, my puppies never were taught what food was by momma, I never fed my puppies around their mothers. I never fed the mommas around the puppies either. Not until they were much older and integrated into the pack.
By the way, the hypoglycemic episode wasn't from her not recognizing food. She ate what I was advised to feed her VERY well (Gerber's Chicken).. It was the OTHER foods she didn't know was food (Cesear's Puppy). It was because she and I had had a play session and she played too much, and I let her take a nap without feeding her first.
I thought I had made it clear, it was in part because she played too hard, just as the other one or two times she had a hypoglycemic episode, but reading what I wrote, I see that I didn't. My apologies.

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

"As for bite inhibition... Part of that, in my opinion, is your own personal training. After all, it doesn't matter how well the puppy learned from it's littermates if, when you bring the puppy home, you let it walk all over you."

I have no idea what you mean by this. So, a dog that is properly raised with his/her parents and comes from a good environment is going to come home to you and start biting you all of a sudden? What would be the justification for this? I do not see the link at all.

What I mean by that is no matter how well behaved a puppy is when you bring it home, IF you are an owner that spoils your dog, and doesn't correct bad behavior, NONE of the lessons the puppy learned at it's breeders home are going to stick with the puppy. This includes bite inhibition.
No the puppy isn't going to all of a sudden start biting you. It's slower and more subtle than that.. and next thing you know, you have a Nu Nu, or a Bandit (Cesar Millan fans will recognize the names, lol).

Originally Posted by chachi

Reputable breeders care what situation they are sending the puppy into thats why. Even if you dont believe in bite inhibition or the socialization values of a puppy staying with the mom untill 12 weeks, you agree there is a health value to it. Isnt that reason enough? I tell you if you had been on this forum for any period of time and saw a new owner dealing with hypoglycemia or coccidia or giardia with a pup too young and struggle and sometimes loose them your outlook would be alot different. Why shouldnt they be with the breeder who is experienced with dealing with these issues. I thinl the tiny ones need to stay longer than 12 weeks even. Your going to have difficulty convincing anyone over to your way of thinking when reputable breeders time and time again advocate keeping them untill at least 12 weeks and its the back yard breeders who just want to make a buck let them go to their homes too young

First, let me say this.
Health concerns are reason enough, to me. I don't have a problem with this general rule of thumb, I am just trying to understand it. That is why I said I understood breeders not wanting the puppies to leave until they were mostly past the likelihood of juvenile hypoglycemia. My COE mentors have even said that as tiny as Pixie is, they wouldn't have let her go until 14-16 weeks.
It is the OTHER reasons given I am trying to understand by asking for more information as to why people think and feel the way they do.
I am also not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking. Explaining why I think two of the main reasons given makes no sense to me is NOT me trying to convince everyone I am right, it is just giving my opinions based on my experience.
And again, I freely state that my experience, though just as extensive as some people here, is NOT with toys. I am WILLING to learn, I am WILLING to "change my mind" if you would, based on what I do learn. The funny thing is this. I am not actually even considering breeding. Been there, done that, have the wall of ribbons and trophies to reminisce on. I am just trying to understand why yorkie (and perhaps other toy breeders.. I don't know, I haven't been trawling through Chihuahua forms to see what they say) breeders do what they do, and codify them with what I know from my own personal experience.
I didn't even get into the socialization aspect, but in my opinion if the only socialization a puppy is getting is within the home pack, the puppy isn't actually being socialized to other dogs, just to the dogs in the home pack. This is why I believe in taking puppies out and about and introducing them to the greater world at large. Without momma.
Especially considering some mommas, even the nicest ones, might be wary of other dogs and strange people approaching her babies and may act fearful and/or aggressive.. which isn't what you want the puppies to learn.
Coccidia or giardia are not age issues, they're cleanliness issues. Never in 20 years have I had a puppy with either, but guess what... I have helped MANY people deal with both issues. And never did one of those puppies come from a good place. I am not saying that it's not possible. Of course it is.. We can track who knows what on our feet and clothes, and next thing you know, we have an epidemic in our homes, running through our dogs.
But when you read on these stories, you'll see a reoccurring theme. Backyard breeder/puppy mill product.. Tons of dogs of different breeds... Puppy sold without contract or contract the protects the greeder only. The age of the puppy is incidental, except for that should the puppy have been older, it would have likely survived. And the buyer wouldn't have had to deal with a sick puppy.
However, the age of the puppy wasn't the REASON the puppy got sick in the first place. The conditions the puppy was raised in was the cause of the sickness.

[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

As a potential puppy buyer, I would prefer to get an older puppy that has spent more time with its littermates and mother than just 6 or 8 weeks and 16 weeks sounds perfect to me. There is plenty of time to adjust to and train a dog after that and I have the rest of my days to spend with it. All of the training and behavior clues my puppy can get from mommie and siblings those first 4 months can only be more helpful to pup so I will gladly wait for my next pup. And that is not to mention the hypoglocemic issues and other things you can't spot in a very young pup. I'm for bringing home an older pup.

I actually prefer older puppies myself. I actually prefer adults, lol. Before Pixie there was an adult yorkie I was working with the owner on, but it didn't work out, and an elderly Papillon that also didn't work out.
The Yorkie went back to his breeder, as it was never set in stone, and I advised them to check with the breeder first, before I headed to go and get him, and I didn't get the paperwork in on time for the Pappy.
I actually haven't noticed much difference between puppies raised with and without siblings, except, (and there are going to be many that disagree) in the negative, as I have noticed that pups raised with siblings can be "pack bound" and insecure/fearful without their sibs to "back them". Not all of them are... But enough for me to note a difference. Again, this is with non toys. I have the thought that perhaps because of the coddling we tend to give tiny cute dogs, that it is perhaps the opposite with toys when they are with their littermates.. But then again, sometimes they don't have littermates, as I have stated, singltons are not uncommon.
I am not knocking anyone for making this choice, I am trying to understand it. My experience compared to theirs, and coming to an understanding.. Like driving in Europe. Yes, the mechanics are the same, but the experience is different. I am trying to understand the difference.

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Very good points! I don't understand where this notion that an older dog doesn't bond, or learn well from it's new owners. Mine was definitely not a puppy, and he is almost perfect. Most of his issues are brought on by fear, and even those are fading. Any dog can be taught to be an amazing companion.

I agree, that is a lot of bollocks. Some of the BEST dogs are ones that came to me as adults. Tank comes to mind.. I mentioned him here before. Velvet was 9 when I got her, and for 4 years, my perfect companion. Even those I have gotten younger at 2-6 years old bonded with me, and I with them.

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I think this could be an interesting discussion if it were conducted with some trust and humor on both sides, which I don't think will happen.

However, Belle Noir, you say that in your experience, small dogs have the worst bite inhibition - this could argue that small dogs SHOULD have an extra four weeks to learn inhibition, since they apparently don't pick up on it as quickly.

BTW, I totally disagree with your comments on Cesar Milan, but since that doesn't appear to be the main thrust of your post, I won't comment further. There's lots of discussion on this topic in Training.

I have a sense of humor!! I promise I do!!! Sadly, though, there are some that think I have an agenda, or something. I actually posted this because I wanted to hear the reasons, and have a conversation on them. I have given my experience, and why I think somethings don't make sense to me. But I am willing to listen and to learn from those that have a greater amount of experience in this breed than I do. I am trying to take advantage of the collective experience of the people here on YT and LEARN. And for me, learning doesn't mean taking things at face value, it means asking questions. And some of those questions are going to fall outside of the party line, and make some uncomfortable. I'm sorry for that, but I am here to learn and that means asking uncomfortable questions sometimes.
Health reasons should above all be the number one concern for any breeder and any buyer. Hypoglycemia should be a great concern, especially for the tinies. And that makes sense to me.
It's the other reasons I'm having trouble grokking.. And part of it is my lack of experience with Yorkies.

As for having another 4 weeks with littlermates to learn bite inhibition.. That would depend on if the puppy was with their littermates for 12-16 weeks, or not.
That would actually be an interesting survey... Do you have a toy dog? At what age did you acquire your toy dog? Is your toy dog nippy towards others? lol

I think that we can agree that most people that train dogs, do it because they feel they are doing the best they can to help dogs. Even if we don't agree on their training methods... By the way, look up Charlie Murphy Cesar Millon on youtube... If you can find it, it is just about the funniest thing I have ever seen said about him.


Thank you everyone I have answered so far. I would continue, and I will, but I have to get ready for my class. I haven't yet read all the replies, but I will.
I appreciate those of you that see my asking this as a way for me to gain knowledge, and didn't automatically feel as though I am trying to start trouble. And I greatly appreciate everyone who did answer me.
Even though I haven't read all that was posted yet, those posts I have read have given me something to think on., so again, thank you...
And I'll see you all in a couple hours.

[1Ieisha]

Well I think Belle Noir asked some good questions, and defended herself very well! I nean I don't see how she was stirring th pot, but if that's the way you see it then so be it. And I laughed because I could just imagine some of you getting all offended in front of your computer screens lol!! Like "how dare sge ask a question about something she doesn't understand!!" Haha!

But I agree with some of you, its recommended, the part about the shots, and teeth..
This really could be a good thread.

[Deuce]

I git Rizzo older, he was 14 weeks and I never had an issue with him nipping, he potty trained pretty quick but we have an accident once in a blue moon. While yorkie puppies are freakin cute, honestly I'm glad I got Rizzo older because I got to avoid a lot of the bad behavior that I've read about here from people that got their pup too early.

[Britster]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

I think this could be an interesting discussion if it were conducted with some trust and humor on both sides, which I don't think will happen.

However, Belle Noir, you say that in your experience, small dogs have the worst bite inhibition - this could argue that small dogs SHOULD have an extra four weeks to learn inhibition, since they apparently don't pick up on it as quickly.

BTW, I totally disagree with your comments on Cesar Milan, but since that doesn't appear to be the main thrust of your post, I won't comment further. There's lots of discussion on this topic in Training.

I will say that I got Jackson at 9 weeks old but by that point, he was already almost 6lbs. He never had a biting problem, ever. He also was very easy to house break. I was glad that he did not have another three weeks in the house he was at and that I got him to MY house sooner. Not that it was a "bad" house per day... but she was not a good breeder, and never did any type of socializing, or any of that, and I think he would have been even more shy had he been left there until 12 weeks old. I think he was better off being with me.

However, I think a pup should be with it's mother until 12 weeks in most situations, no matter what the breed. I think it would be very beneficial to any pup, honestly.

On the other side of things, my dad got his JRT/Shihtzu mix at the age of 7 weeks and she was a terrible biter. You could not even play with her for the first few months because she'd constantly just bite you. She still is not potty trained properly and goes in the house practically every day at 4 years old. She's very growly and will still bite if she is annoyed. However, I don't really think this was necessarily a matter of being taken too young, but a training issue.

So who knows, really.

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

Well, I'm with you on this!

I would much rather get my pup at 8 weeks than 12. For me, that cute puppy stage is such an amazing & short period, and the longer puppy period I get the better. I'd rather have that extra month with my puppy!

I've never had a problem with bite inhibition, housebreaking, or other behaviour issues with a dog....and the more I read about them on here the stronger I feel it has alot more to do with the person raising the pup than the pup itself (just like any other form of parenting...) Given a choice, I want my pup as soon as it's able to eat kibble!

So you would rather get your puppy at 8 weeks because they are cute and you want more time with it even though you will have many many years with them? Rather then it being 12 weeks and more socialized (with litter and mother) and taught things from its mother and healthier really?

[McheleM]

My main reason is the shots. I had a 8 wk old parvo puppy, and will never again bring home a puppy that hasn't had at least 2 sets of shots.


Allie was 16 wks when I got her (btw, she was "discounted" because of her age) Noah was 7 wks ( I got them the same time from the same breeder) and Westley was 12 weeks exactly. I have never had any problems with Allie or Westley. Noah's parvo treatment was an emotional and monetary roller coaster, it's stunted his growth, and his tummy is still not 100%. All because he was too young to be taken out of his environment and introduced to another.

I have never agreed with taking a pup away from mom before 10 weeks for any breed-and honestly, I think people who do are only doing it for the money.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

So you would rather get your puppy at 8 weeks because they are cute and you want more time with it even though you will have many many years with them? Rather then it being 12 weeks and more socialized (with litter and mother) and taught things from its mother and healthier really?

Yes! I want that puppy time and don't want to miss out on a week that I don't absolutely have to! Just like if I was adopting a baby I'd want it as a newborn rather than a toddler.

I don't believe a puppy is "healthier" at 12 weeks than it is at 8 weeks. The puppy is healthy or it is not. It may be bigger, stronger, but not healthier.

And yes again... I want to be the one to train my puppy, not the breeder. I'd rather not have to correct other's training to suit me. I'd prefer to start the pup out as we mean to go on in my home. By the time you'd expect to get your puppy, I'd expect mine to be completely house broken.

[Taryn0405]

Not even going to touch this one. Have fun, gals.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by Taryn0405

Not even going to touch this one. Have fun, gals.

Oh...come on Taryn!!! We're all entitled to our opinion. Besides...your hands are gonna turn blue if you keep sitting on them

[Taryn0405]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

Oh...come on Taryn!!! We're all entitled to our opinion. Besides...your hands are gonna turn blue if you keep sitting on them

My bum's not that big!!!

[Lovetodream88]

Originally Posted by KazzyK810

Yes! I want that puppy time and don't want to miss out on a week that I don't absolutely have to! Just like if I was adopting a baby I'd want it as a newborn rather than a toddler.

I don't believe a puppy is "healthier" at 12 weeks than it is at 8 weeks. The puppy is healthy or it is not. It may be bigger, stronger, but not healthier.

And yes again... I want to be the one to train my puppy, not the breeder. I'd rather not have to correct other's training to suit me. I'd prefer to start the pup out as we mean to go on in my home. By the time you'd expect to get your puppy, I'd expect mine to be completely house broken.

So you would expect to have your puppy house broken at 12 weeks old?

[gidget529]

Originally Posted by chachi

Reputable breeders care what situation they are sending the puppy into thats why. Even if you dont believe in bite inhibition or the socialization values of a puppy staying with the mom untill 12 weeks, you agree there is a health value to it. Isnt that reason enough? I tell you if you had been on this forum for any period of time and saw a new owner dealing with hypoglycemia or coccidia or giardia with a pup too young and struggle and sometimes loose them your outlook would be alot different. Why shouldnt they be with the breeder who is experienced with dealing with these issues. I thinl the tiny ones need to stay longer than 12 weeks even. Your going to have difficulty convincing anyone over to your way of thinking when reputable breeders time and time again advocate keeping them untill at least 12 weeks and its the back yard breeders who just want to make a buck let them go to their homes too young

This sounds like the explanation my breeder gives who has been breeding for over 30 years. Back when I got my first yorkie, I thought I was doing the right thing not buying from a pet shop. This was almost 15 years ago. I got an 8 week old from a BYB (didn't know any better at the time). I can see a BIG difference in dog temperament, self esteem, manners, bite inhibition, ease in traveling, anxiety, etc., buying from a breeder who knows what they are doing and keeps the dogs until later.

I also think we should consider that the YTCA also makes the recommendation that pups should not be placed before 12 weeks of age for a variety of reasons.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by Lovetodream88

So you would expect to have your puppy house broken at 12 weeks old?

At the latest! Potty-training has never been an issue with any dog I've had. But, I'll readily admit, it's not a miracle...I do put the training time in, and completely clear my schedule so I'm available 24/7 for the first few weeks.