Why 12 Weeks?

[Belle Noir]

I am not posting this to get a rise out of others.. though I am sure that there are some that think I post what I do, just for such reasons.. I'm genuinely curious.
To me, a dog is a dog, it doesn't matter if it's 15 lbs or 150 lbs.. I've had them from both ranges. And I have bred dogs in the past, did pretty good in the shows with my line and they were generally quite healthy.

What confuses me, is this. I have heard reasons that people give for not sending the puppy home until 12 weeks, and to be really honest, the only one that makes sense is that toys have a greater chance of hypoglycemic episodes until about 16 weeks, give or take.

Really, it sounds to me that everything else.. Learning bite inhibition, housebreaking, and so forth... is a bit of a cop out. After all, MOST other breeders send their puppies on at 8 weeks. And the breeds that have the LEAST amount of bite inhibition (in my opinion only) seem to BE the toys.

I have raised many dogs, and I will grant, it was always easier to house break a puppy when I had adults around to help teach the puppy, but that doesn't mean that I am (or others are) incapable of housebreaking a puppy without the assistance of an adult dog in the house. Or that puppies won't learn without momma around to teach them.

Actually, the easiest puppies to house break were the ones that I had to bottle raise, I guess because they were always right there.

As for bite inhibition... Part of that, in my opinion, is your own personal training. After all, it doesn't matter how well the puppy learned from it's littermates if, when you bring the puppy home, you let it walk all over you.
That brings me something else to mind. Stillwell and Millan.. Stillwell likes to do the "pretend you're a littermate and yelp really high pitched when your dog gets too rough with you, and turn away and stand still". That always bothered me, because basically, you're telling the dog we're equals, and that gives the dog a chance to decide that he wants to be ahead of you.
Millan, on the other hand, "this is what the momma dog does when the puppy misbehaves, because she is a the pack leader to the puppy". More my speed, I think. If I am my dogs mommy, and her owner, and her pack leader, I have to approach from a position of authority.

And having raised many dogs, having had many puppies... Having even gotten them as young as 2 weeks.. That whole teaching them bite inhibition thing doesn't make sense to me, because I have never had a dog that would even THINK about biting a human over anything... Biting other dogs... Well.. some of them would.. but that wasn't bite inhibition, that was dog aggression plain and simple.

But for medical reasons.. yes, I can see that. Pixie came home at 8 weeks, 3 days. While I stayed on top of constantly offering her food, most of what I offered her, she actually didn't seem to recognize as food. And a few nights after I got her, she did have a hypoglycemic episode. Had I not been alert, and had I not known the symptoms, things could have gone very badly for her. As it stands, I caught it almost as soon as it started, and other than one or two other times, when she played too hard, she's never had another episode.

However, that means that a professional yorkie person shouldn't have an issue letting pups go at 8 weeks to another professional yorkie person. Yet I see people that have a lot of experience with yorkies saying that they would not take an 8 week old puppy.. And I'm confused as to why. My thoughts say if you know yorkies, then you know how to prevent and watch for hypoglycemia. And if you have adult dogs, there is the house breaking portion of the reasons given.. And well.. bite inhibition.. How many yorkies are singletons? Besides, adult dogs do just as good a training for bite inhibition (if not better) than littermates.

Again, I'm not asking this to stir the pot, I genuinely DON'T get the whole 12 week thing. Not for the reasons given, except for one. And I'd really like to understand.

[107barney]

Sounds like pot stirring to me.

[azkaty]

This is going to get a whole lot of people going down the nasty road. And it may confuse some new yorkie owners.IMHO.

[maggiesmom_2007]

All I am going to say on this is I personally do not send my pups to their new homes before 12 weeks of age regardless of whether the person is an experienced Yorkie person or not.
I like to make sure my pups have at the very least had 2 sets of shots, are pad trained, have their teeth in order to eat dry kibble. And for me the bite inhibition and other stuff you pointed out is not a cop out. Besides for me I show my Yorkies so unless I know without a doubt that some are going to be pets they stay with me til at the very least 6 months.

[DvlshAngel985]

In your explanation, you yourself gave a reason why a pup should no be removed before 12 weeks.

Originally Posted by Belle Noir

Pixie came home at 8 weeks, 3 days. While I stayed on top of constantly offering her food, most of what I offered her, she actually didn't seem to recognize as food.

At 8 weeks old, your pup didn't know what food was and had a hypoglycemic episode. Even before joining YT, I had read or heard pups learn about solid foods through their mom. Knowing that, and reading your own testimony, wouldn't Pixie have learned what you were offering her was food if her mother had taught her that? Just asking.

[roseylovestosho]

"As for bite inhibition... Part of that, in my opinion, is your own personal training. After all, it doesn't matter how well the puppy learned from it's littermates if, when you bring the puppy home, you let it walk all over you."

I have no idea what you mean by this. So, a dog that is properly raised with his/her parents and comes from a good environment is going to come home to you and start biting you all of a sudden? What would be the justification for this? I do not see the link at all.

[chachi]

Reputable breeders care what situation they are sending the puppy into thats why. Even if you dont believe in bite inhibition or the socialization values of a puppy staying with the mom untill 12 weeks, you agree there is a health value to it. Isnt that reason enough? I tell you if you had been on this forum for any period of time and saw a new owner dealing with hypoglycemia or coccidia or giardia with a pup too young and struggle and sometimes loose them your outlook would be alot different. Why shouldnt they be with the breeder who is experienced with dealing with these issues. I thinl the tiny ones need to stay longer than 12 weeks even. Your going to have difficulty convincing anyone over to your way of thinking when reputable breeders time and time again advocate keeping them untill at least 12 weeks and its the back yard breeders who just want to make a buck let them go to their homes too young

[yorkietalkjilly]

As a potential puppy buyer, I would prefer to get an older puppy that has spent more time with its littermates and mother than just 6 or 8 weeks and 16 weeks sounds perfect to me. There is plenty of time to adjust to and train a dog after that and I have the rest of my days to spend with it. All of the training and behavior clues my puppy can get from mommie and siblings those first 4 months can only be more helpful to pup so I will gladly wait for my next pup. And that is not to mention the hypoglocemic issues and other things you can't spot in a very young pup. I'm for bringing home an older pup.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by yorkietalkjilly

As a potential puppy buyer, I would prefer to get an older puppy that has spent more time with its littermates and mother than just 6 or 8 weeks and 16 weeks sounds perfect to me. There is plenty of time to adjust to and train a dog after that and I have the rest of my days to spend with it. All of the training and behavior clues my puppy can get from mommie and siblings those first 4 months can only be more helpful to pup so I will gladly wait for my next pup. And that is not to mention the hypoglocemic issues and other things you can't spot in a very young pup. I'm for bringing home an older pup.

Very good points! I don't understand where this notion that an older dog doesn't bond, or learn well from it's new owners. Mine was definitely not a puppy, and he is almost perfect. Most of his issues are brought on by fear, and even those are fading. Any dog can be taught to be an amazing companion.

[QuickSilver]

I think this could be an interesting discussion if it were conducted with some trust and humor on both sides, which I don't think will happen.

However, Belle Noir, you say that in your experience, small dogs have the worst bite inhibition - this could argue that small dogs SHOULD have an extra four weeks to learn inhibition, since they apparently don't pick up on it as quickly.

BTW, I totally disagree with your comments on Cesar Milan, but since that doesn't appear to be the main thrust of your post, I won't comment further. There's lots of discussion on this topic in Training.

[Beamers Mom]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Very good points! I don't understand where this notion that an older dog doesn't bond, or learn well from it's new owners. Mine was definitely not a puppy, and he is almost perfect. Most of his issues are brought on by fear, and even those are fading. Any dog can be taught to be an amazing companion.

I agree older dogs can be taught to be amazing companions. I have had rescue dogs, and they have mostly been seniors.
They can certainly bond with new owners and learn well. (I get video's of Reno (you all remember Reno) on a regular basis and he has certainly bonded with his new owner and his new fur siblings.

I got Beamer when he was a year old. Didn't take long for him to bond with us - and the beauty of it was that he was well trained by his breeder. Heck he was even trained to be groomed daily and as soon as he saw me get ready to put his bow in, his head went down facing me just waiting for me to put his bow in. If we ever got another Yorkie it would be an older one and not a puppy.

[KazzyK810]

Originally Posted by Belle Noir

Really, it sounds to me that everything else.. Learning bite inhibition, housebreaking, and so forth... is a bit of a cop out. After all, MOST other breeders send their puppies on at 8 weeks.

Well, I'm with you on this!

I would much rather get my pup at 8 weeks than 12. For me, that cute puppy stage is such an amazing & short period, and the longer puppy period I get the better. I'd rather have that extra month with my puppy!

I've never had a problem with bite inhibition, housebreaking, or other behaviour issues with a dog....and the more I read about them on here the stronger I feel it has alot more to do with the person raising the pup than the pup itself (just like any other form of parenting...) Given a choice, I want my pup as soon as it's able to eat kibble!

[gemy]

Well from my point of view; first if the YTCA a respected breed club, with hundreds of years of combined breed experience recommends 12wks and 2 pounds; that is pretty persuasive to me, that it is in the best interests of the puppy and new puppy owner.

I think that 2lbs is still very tiny, but I'm thankful that my pup didn't come home when he only weighed a pound!. It is my understanding that the smaller weight wise a pup is the more danger of hypogylcemia.

A quality breeder of Yorkies, during that "additional" 4 wk or more period, can make a huge difference in the nature and character of the puppy. Basic obedience, hard food eating, learning more to focus on humans, she even begins leash training (in house), and toy motivation skills. But if the breeder doesn't add valuable life lessons to the puppy, still the puppy can learn more from Mom and siblings.

Funny my breeder and I were just having a discussion about best age to take puppy home. One pretty salient point she made was, if the breeder does no training of pup (and here specifically we were talking about older pups 4mths on), then it is best if pup goes to owner earlier so this can be done. As a breeder she has often had to deal with Yorkies who come to her at an older age and know nothing but kennel life.
It takes much time to socialize these dogs, give them confidence when outside, but certainly can be done.
I'd certainly wouldn't hesitate to take an older dog from Ilona.

[LDMomma]

I've gotten two dogs at 8 weeks and one at 12 weeks (our fourth is a rescue and was an adult when she came home).

My 8 weekers were almost unbearable nippers in the beginning. It took a while to teach them not to nip.

My 12 weeker- no nipping.

One 8 weeker and my 12 weeker had a hard time potty-training. My other 8 weeker came to us potty-trained and hasn't had an accident since.

None of my dogs have had a hypoglycemia event, which must have been a stroke of luck because we knew nothing when we brought our first girl home.

The breeder I got my last puppy from holds them until 16 weeks.

[yorkietalkjilly]

My Jilly was 4 1/2 mos. when I got her and Tibbe was 9 mos. and I could not have been closer to either than I was with Jilly during her life and am with Tibbe. Neither of them turned out to be nippers or anything like that because they both had behavioral modification training and both became dream dogs as to their conduct and attitudes.

Personally, I would be scared to death to bring a 6 or 8 week old puppy home with all the risks plus knowing what it could be missing as to good old Mother Nature training by mom and littermates in the setting the pup was born into. I believe in giving the more natural way of letting the canine family structure educate and nurture a pup along with the input of the breeder until the baby has matured a bit into its own sense of self. That's when I can better tell what kind of a dog I am probably looking at as to temperament, plus, of course, conformity. Let momma dog keep her babies in her nest a while and let the pups grow and flourish under her care is my preference. I'll still have years and years to enjoy him.