[Belle Noir]

Originally Posted by 107barney

Sounds like pot stirring to me.

So asking a question I genuinely don't get the reasons given for is pot stirring?

Originally Posted by azkaty

This is going to get a whole lot of people going down the nasty road. And it may confuse some new yorkie owners.IMHO.

I am sure that there are going to be some people that chose to get nasty over a question. That's their choice. Fortunately, I have a thick skin. Those that offer information, I'll accept, and those that want to be nasty, I'll not reply in kind, but I will explain myself.
And yes, it may confuse some people, but it may also help to clarify things to others.

Originally Posted by maggiesmom_2007

All I am going to say on this is I personally do not send my pups to their new homes before 12 weeks of age regardless of whether the person is an experienced Yorkie person or not.
I like to make sure my pups have at the very least had 2 sets of shots, are pad trained, have their teeth in order to eat dry kibble. And for me the bite inhibition and other stuff you pointed out is not a cop out. Besides for me I show my Yorkies so unless I know without a doubt that some are going to be pets they stay with me til at the very least 6 months.

Very good! This is the kind of answer I was looking for. Being assured of at least two sets of shots is a very valid reason. Making sure they have their teeth in is another.
And of course, being assured of the potential show quality of an individual is important as well. Thank you for your input.

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

In your explanation, you yourself gave a reason why a pup should no be removed before 12 weeks.

At 8 weeks old, your pup didn't know what food was and had a hypoglycemic episode. Even before joining YT, I had read or heard pups learn about solid foods through their mom. Knowing that, and reading your own testimony, wouldn't Pixie have learned what you were offering her was food if her mother had taught her that? Just asking.

Pixie is not my first puppy. My first yorkie puppy, yes, but not my first puppy. I have raised many dogs over 20 years, from those that stayed with their mothers their whole lives, to those that had to be taken from their mother and hand reared at 2 days old (mom was an EVIL puppy killer.. had I known that, I wouldn't have taken her own, took out half the litter, and I THOUGHT she'd laid on them, until I caught her grabbing and shaking one to death).
Never, until now, have I not known a puppy at 8 weeks old to not recognize food as food. NEVER. I actually questioned her age, in part because of her size, but in part, because in my experience puppies at 8 weeks should know what food is.
I realize that many people raise their dogs differently.. And with the hindsight I have of Pixie likely being a mill puppy.. yes, it would make sense that she wouldn't recognize food. But never have I ever had a house reared puppy not know what food was at 8 weeks. And I was told she was a home reared puppy.
To answer your question, I really don't know. I always start offering gruel to puppies starting 4 weeks. Mom is never there, because the greedy hags would steal the babies gruel, and I have always had puppies dive in their gruel the first time it's offered, if not, the second time. Because of thieving mothers, my puppies never were taught what food was by momma, I never fed my puppies around their mothers. I never fed the mommas around the puppies either. Not until they were much older and integrated into the pack.
By the way, the hypoglycemic episode wasn't from her not recognizing food. She ate what I was advised to feed her VERY well (Gerber's Chicken).. It was the OTHER foods she didn't know was food (Cesear's Puppy). It was because she and I had had a play session and she played too much, and I let her take a nap without feeding her first.
I thought I had made it clear, it was in part because she played too hard, just as the other one or two times she had a hypoglycemic episode, but reading what I wrote, I see that I didn't. My apologies.

Originally Posted by roseylovestosho

"As for bite inhibition... Part of that, in my opinion, is your own personal training. After all, it doesn't matter how well the puppy learned from it's littermates if, when you bring the puppy home, you let it walk all over you."

I have no idea what you mean by this. So, a dog that is properly raised with his/her parents and comes from a good environment is going to come home to you and start biting you all of a sudden? What would be the justification for this? I do not see the link at all.

What I mean by that is no matter how well behaved a puppy is when you bring it home, IF you are an owner that spoils your dog, and doesn't correct bad behavior, NONE of the lessons the puppy learned at it's breeders home are going to stick with the puppy. This includes bite inhibition.
No the puppy isn't going to all of a sudden start biting you. It's slower and more subtle than that.. and next thing you know, you have a Nu Nu, or a Bandit (Cesar Millan fans will recognize the names, lol).

Originally Posted by chachi

Reputable breeders care what situation they are sending the puppy into thats why. Even if you dont believe in bite inhibition or the socialization values of a puppy staying with the mom untill 12 weeks, you agree there is a health value to it. Isnt that reason enough? I tell you if you had been on this forum for any period of time and saw a new owner dealing with hypoglycemia or coccidia or giardia with a pup too young and struggle and sometimes loose them your outlook would be alot different. Why shouldnt they be with the breeder who is experienced with dealing with these issues. I thinl the tiny ones need to stay longer than 12 weeks even. Your going to have difficulty convincing anyone over to your way of thinking when reputable breeders time and time again advocate keeping them untill at least 12 weeks and its the back yard breeders who just want to make a buck let them go to their homes too young

First, let me say this.
Health concerns are reason enough, to me. I don't have a problem with this general rule of thumb, I am just trying to understand it. That is why I said I understood breeders not wanting the puppies to leave until they were mostly past the likelihood of juvenile hypoglycemia. My COE mentors have even said that as tiny as Pixie is, they wouldn't have let her go until 14-16 weeks.
It is the OTHER reasons given I am trying to understand by asking for more information as to why people think and feel the way they do.
I am also not trying to convince anyone to my way of thinking. Explaining why I think two of the main reasons given makes no sense to me is NOT me trying to convince everyone I am right, it is just giving my opinions based on my experience.
And again, I freely state that my experience, though just as extensive as some people here, is NOT with toys. I am WILLING to learn, I am WILLING to "change my mind" if you would, based on what I do learn. The funny thing is this. I am not actually even considering breeding. Been there, done that, have the wall of ribbons and trophies to reminisce on. I am just trying to understand why yorkie (and perhaps other toy breeders.. I don't know, I haven't been trawling through Chihuahua forms to see what they say) breeders do what they do, and codify them with what I know from my own personal experience.
I didn't even get into the socialization aspect, but in my opinion if the only socialization a puppy is getting is within the home pack, the puppy isn't actually being socialized to other dogs, just to the dogs in the home pack. This is why I believe in taking puppies out and about and introducing them to the greater world at large. Without momma.
Especially considering some mommas, even the nicest ones, might be wary of other dogs and strange people approaching her babies and may act fearful and/or aggressive.. which isn't what you want the puppies to learn.
Coccidia or giardia are not age issues, they're cleanliness issues. Never in 20 years have I had a puppy with either, but guess what... I have helped MANY people deal with both issues. And never did one of those puppies come from a good place. I am not saying that it's not possible. Of course it is.. We can track who knows what on our feet and clothes, and next thing you know, we have an epidemic in our homes, running through our dogs.
But when you read on these stories, you'll see a reoccurring theme. Backyard breeder/puppy mill product.. Tons of dogs of different breeds... Puppy sold without contract or contract the protects the greeder only. The age of the puppy is incidental, except for that should the puppy have been older, it would have likely survived. And the buyer wouldn't have had to deal with a sick puppy.
However, the age of the puppy wasn't the REASON the puppy got sick in the first place. The conditions the puppy was raised in was the cause of the sickness.