Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[Sweet Apple]

I don't have a parti or biewer, but I think they're very cute...At the moment, I'm not even in the market, for another pup...I would like to know, however, why do they seem to be more expensive than traditional yorkies?

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

I don't know why this has to be rehashed over and over. Any information one might need is posted on my website or on the parti Yorkshire Terrier club website.
There is no way Linda Bush could trace who the culprit is for all the parti color dogs. Tri-color dogs were showing up in England long before they arrived in the U.S. because the yorkie originated there. As I posted part of the letter I received from Joan Gordon, I will post again for those who did not see it.
"Dear Ms Mullins
Thank you for your letter, I'm glad you enjoyed our books
I must say however that I'm always fascinated by the amount of misinformation that is placed on the computer and even more so when it becomes exaggerated. WE actually had exactly one tri-color puppy born in all the years we bred Yorkies. After my sister died I gave up breeding extensively as it was what we did together. Since Jans death in 1985. I have bred exactly 4 litters and I stopped breeding completely probably 9 or 10 years ago. I could go look it up but I know Katie and Nicky were the last 2 puppies born.
I have shown several dogs that I purchased from others since then.
Our one tri-color puppy was born Dec. 10, 1976 and was a single puppy. His sire was Wildweir Counterspy and his dam was Wildweir Stitch in Time.
His Recorded name Wildweir Triplicate. He was reg with AKC #: TB426843. This was a first litter for either of his parents. We had the bitch spayed and the male neutered and both were placed as pets. I had heard of Yorkies being born in England that were Tri's but "Trippy" was the only one we'd ever seen.
We kept him until he matured. He was born a white dog with black spots and developed his tan marking as he grew up. His black spots turned to blue-gray and his tan markings came out by the time he was around six months. His temperament was all yorkie and size was very typical around 5 1/2 to 6 lbs. His coat was not as wiry as a fox terrier but certainly not as silky as a yorkie. We placed him with friends who had tried to buy him earlier when he was 2 years old and he lived to be 12 years old.
I don't have a problem writing about our "Trippy" but since the others who bred mismarked dogs that I knew about are deceased, I don't believe I can comment on them. I can only hope that they seek the truth and not just rumors!
If they thought Trippy was not a yorkie, why did they register him with AKC.
She also states in her letter that the tri-color was imported into Germany from England. Other colors have always popped up in the yorkie. Joan stated that in the 1930's there was a breeder that was raising golds exclusively and AKC put a cease and desist on him.
The real truth is that they have always existed, No, they are not the standard, we all agree on that but that does not mean that others colors were never born.

The Wildweir dogs do not trace back to Streamglen kennels, She did not know why they got a tri color, it just happens.
In her book she did state that:" "It is not unusual to find small white marks on one or more toes or a fine white line in the lower fore jaw. These will not be visible as an adult. A large amount of white marks on the chest, paws, jaws, or skull, places a yorkie into a tri-color classification and it is very wise to guard against this possibility. Yorkshire terrier puppies can be born of colors that automatically deprive them of the necessary qualities to become the proper colors of the breed. They can be born all black: all tan: tan with black points; tri-color: black, white, and tan; all blue; bluish grey with tan points; and so remain or change to another shade of their newly born colors.

Joan in no way ever stated that partis were not born from 2 traditional color yorkies. What she does say is that these dogs are mismarked and should not be shown. That does does not constitute them being another breed or a mix.
Malcoms book does not anywhere mention a parti yorkie or a Biewer.

Parti yorkies can be born from 2 traditional yorkies, I don't know where you get your misinformation from. Joans "Trippy" was born from 2 regular yorkies.
There are enough books and references that say there were other colors, you cant go around and just pick and choose only the ones you want to believe.
I believe I have as good a source as there is by having it in writing from Joan Gordon herself. No she did not think the line should be carried on when a parti showed up as they were not standard and she refers to them as mismarked. Mismarked , Yes , but still a yorkshire terrier.
You can also go to the big thread mentioned earlier and it tells about the fox and the white suddenly showing up in it. You might want to read that.

Who's Joan Gordon?

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

I have a silly question-maybe not-isn't it said that the Biewer's origins are a hidden secret of the Biewer family and despite the listings of the dogs he used in his records for the AKC acceptance the parentage of some of the original or breed originating dogs were unknown I'm wondering if Biewers should even be considered in the argument (HA HA I mean conversation) about Standard and Partis...and their white coloration or tri-coloration? Does anyone have a really good factual reference of Biewers from the family or directly to their records? Well one that is already translated to English as well?

There was no hidden secret with the Biewers. Only claims by a club that is trying to get them into AKC as a breed of their own by saying that another breed was mixed in.
I have alot of biewer info on my website where I researched them.

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by Sweet Apple

I don't have a parti or biewer, but I think they're very cute...At the moment, I'm not even in the market, for another pup...I would like to know, however, why do they seem to be more expensive than traditional yorkies?

You know, I asked that very same question months ago, and now I have a following that I do not care for! For many, it is about the money they were getting. Asking $5,000-7,000 for a pup. All about the money. I would rather go down to a local shelter and adopt a pup.

[Sweet Apple]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

You know, I asked that very same question months ago, and now I have a following that I do not care for! For many, it is about the money they were getting. Asking $5,000-7,000 for a pup. All about the money. I would rather go down to a local shelter and adopt a pup.

Schareeeeeek...5-7 thou!!! BUTT, for your attitude towards the shelter/adoption druthers...

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

You know, I asked that very same question months ago, and now I have a following that I do not care for! For many, it is about the money they were getting. Asking $5,000-7,000 for a pup. All about the money. I would rather go down to a local shelter and adopt a pup.

Biewers sell for far less than that price. A lot less as a matter of fact.

I'm not in it for the money, trust me.

Just thought of something...I've shown with corsos...those pups sell for about the same as biewers. Do you think they're in it solely for the money?

[DamSweet]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

You know, I asked that very same question months ago, and now I have a following that I do not care for! For many, it is about the money they were getting. Asking $5,000-7,000 for a pup. All about the money. I would rather go down to a local shelter and adopt a pup.

Originally Posted by Sweet Apple

Schareeeeeek...5-7 thou!!! BUTT, for your attitude towards the shelter/adoption druthers...

I don't normally post on these threads because I don't have any facts to post - except for this one.
When I decided to look for a Biewer I found the prices to be in the same ball-park as the Yorkies. Yes - you'll find some totally off the charts, as I found with a $14800 Yorkie on a website yesterday.
I got Greta from a YT member who brought her from Germany. She did not breed her but was intending on using her in her breeding program. She found out that Greta had a slight LP in one of her knees (my vet says is almost non-existant) and decided to re-home her. She was spayed before she came to me - was up to date on all her shots and with travel expenses (she was flown to me with a courrior cross country). If you remove the cost of the spay and the travel expenses I paid less for her than I did for Bridget who was a rescue who came to me without papers( which makes no difference to me ) and I had to have her spayed. I was sent Gretas pedigrees and she was micro-chipped. The lady who trusted her to me has been there for me every step of the way and we talk at least a few times a month. Greta was a year old when I got her and has fit into my family beautifully. She is an amazing little addition. I don't know if it's the Biewer trait - but she is just the most laid-back, undemanding little baby. She and Bridget compliment each others personalities. She is no better or worse than Bridget - just different. Regardless of what everyones opinions are - I would get another in a heartbeat!

[RachelandSadie]

just learning here....watching from both sides and taking it all in. i do honor the YTCA and believe that they will tell us when and if parti or tri color is an acceptable gene or not...until then i think i'm all for the blue and golds, not that partis are not beautiful and cute and maybe in time will become their own dog breed entirely. i guess i'm from the perspective of all dog breeds had to start somewhere, if someone is truely out there mixing different exisiting breeds for the purpose of developing things in the offspring they most desire such as personality, coat, color ext. then i can't say i'm 100% against it. but that's not usually the case and it usually is about money and selling. as a yorkie lover i don't want to see my favorite breeds decline due to too many people mixing them up and loosing the perfection they already have, but i also don't want to say i'm totally against a breeder purposefully mixing two 100% purebred lines to cross into a new territory. does that make any sense at all.

[shodanusmc]

Originally Posted by bchgirl

Biewers sell for far less than that price. A lot less as a matter of fact.

I'm not in it for the money, trust me.

Just thought of something...I've shown with corsos...those pups sell for about the same as biewers. Do you think they're in it solely for the money?

I believe I paid around $1500.00 for Carlo 11 years ago. You can find them anywhere from $1000 to $2500 from a good breeder. If you want to pay $5,000 you can! The purchase price is the cheap part! His Medical bills in the last 8 months are more than $20,000. Many Parti breeders are the ones I have seen that want the money. No idea what a Biewers is, but they are not Yorkies, correct? I had best get going before my stalker comes out wanting to report me.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

just learning here....watching from both sides and taking it all in. i do honor the YTCA and believe that they will tell us when and if parti or tri color is an acceptable gene or not...until then i think i'm all for the blue and golds, not that partis are not beautiful and cute and maybe in time will become their own dog breed entirely. i guess i'm from the perspective of all dog breeds had to start somewhere, if someone is truely out there mixing different exisiting breeds for the purpose of developing things in the offspring they most desire such as personality, coat, color ext. then i can't say i'm 100% against it. but that's not usually the case and it usually is about money and selling. as a yorkie lover i don't want to see my favorite breeds decline due to too many people mixing them up and loosing the perfection they already have, but i also don't want to say i'm totally against a breeder purposefully mixing two 100% purebred lines to cross into a new territory. does that make any sense at all.

It does. When you mean cross, you mean cross with a purpose right? Like creating a new breed with a job in mind instead of crossing dogs just for the sake of crossing. (think "designer" dogs)

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Who's Joan Gordon?

Joan Gordon is considered a matriach and contributed much to the Yorkieshire Terrier. She and her sister, Janet Bennett traveled extensively, studying the breed and meeting with Yorkshire Terrier Kennel owners. The co-authored The Complete Yorkshire Terrier, first published in 1976. They together with several others, i.e Goldie Stone, established the YTCA in 1954

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

So, here is a good start -- several recognized experts comment on their thoughts on the tri-color possibility:

Joan Gordon

"According to many present-day writers Yorkshires were the result of
a number of breeds being bred together to produce the desired points. How anyone could believe, or even imagine, these early fanciers would have bred from a Dandie Dinmont, a breed with an uneven top line; a Maltese, a totally white breed lacking any blue or tan markings or from a smooth coated Manchester Terrier (originally a smooth coated Old English Terrier) is not being realistic. "http://www.ytca.org/history.html


Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog"

The genetic makeup for the Yorkshire Terrier is:
asasBBCCDDEEGGmmSStt

S Self colour to totally pigmented surface si Irish spotting involving a few definite areas of white sp Piebald spotting sw Extreme-white piebald

Most breeds without white markings are SS but from time to time markings do appear and in general appear on toes, chest or muzzle. These marks can be present at birth and are lost during infancy. The ones that persist are not other s alleles but to minus modifiers at the S allele and will be limited to those minute amounts in those locations.

Irish spotting is also limited to certain areas of the body as the dominant S is, ruling out either gene in the makeup of Parti Yorkie Tri Colors or Biewers. Limited to forehead, chest, belly, feet and tail tip.

Piebald shows much larger amounts of white on the dogs then the Irish spotting gene.

Extreme-white piebald is seen in those breeds which are white in color. As a result of this double carrier of swsw all other colors can be suppressed. (From Malcolm Willis "Genetics of the Dog")

So in essense, to have the white markings that are on the so called Parti Yorkie Tri Color or Biewer dogs, another breed had to have been in the mixture at some point. Since no one wants to admit this and in all honesty, it could be back far enough that no one is living any longer to admit to it, but unlikely that it is not much closer up. After some study of the current Biewer situation, which is somewhat the same situation, I've found they have both the Piebald gene and the Extreme-White Piebald gene. Some of the Biewer's are going almost solid white, which gives and indication of a couple different breeds.

Malcolm Willis' "Genetics of the Dog" When you read the genetic study of the Maltese, they have the Extreme-White Piebald gene.

Even though the genetic studies were not conducted on Shih Tzu, it is quite apparent that they are carrying the Piebald gene. Either or both could figure into the equation. The ones going white are heavy on the Extreme-White Piebald and the ones keeping color on the backs are of the Piebald inheritance. Either way, the mix wherever it happend, by accident or plan, this is NO longer a purebred Yorkshire Terrier.

In over 30 years of being involved in the sport and many Yorkshire Terrier champions, I have not had a Yorkshire Terrier with white. I find it interesting that the only ones coming up are the ones not bred by show exhibitors. A show exhibitor was getting them and had enough sense to realize there was more behind her breeding then just the Yorkshire Terrier and somebody had obviously done a breeding that was not pure Yorkshire Terrier. Otherwise the show exhibitors are not getting these white colored dogs." Top Parti Yorkies Genetics Party Color and Biewer

He did not say the genetic make up is asasBBCCDDEEGGmmSStt. He said it likely is. Here is what he says in his book.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by shodanusmc

I believe I paid around $1500.00 for Carlo 11 years ago. You can find them anywhere from $1000 to $2500 from a good breeder. If you want to pay $5,000 you can! The purchase price is the cheap part! His Medical bills in the last 8 months are more than $20,000. Many Parti breeders are the ones I have seen that want the money. No idea what a Biewers is, but they are not Yorkies, correct? I had best get going before my stalker comes out wanting to report me.

What breeders have you seen?
Yes, the Biewer is a Yorkshire Terrier.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

It does. When you mean cross, you mean cross with a purpose right? Like creating a new breed with a job in mind instead of crossing dogs just for the sake of crossing. (think "designer" dogs)

yea that's what i'm meaning. anyone can put two dogs together and sell them, that's wrong, but to be able to purposefully pick apart genetics and cross for a perfectly new breed from unaltered and impure genes that's something i think i'd be ok with.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

What breeders have you seen?
Yes, the Biewer is a Yorkshire Terrier.

as far as I'm aware not according to the YTCA they aren't (correct me if i'm wrong here)