Yorkshire Terrier and the Parti/Tricolor

[Jaxx]

The picture of the second Yorkie you posted is not a parti. It is a parti gene carrier.

[marcie]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I've been wanting to ask, but didn't have the guts to before, (same reason I never asked about Joan Gordon) has there ever been any all steel blue or black yorkie? I have seen threads where people are proud of their all white yorkies, or close to it, and I think I recall seeing an all tan one. (can't remember, it could have been a mix) So has there ever been a yorkie that is all dark before? Or would the dark ones be considered "chocolate" or liver colored yorkies. Sorry if that's a dumb question, I was just wondering.

I am so glad you asked that question. I was also wondering about it.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Partial Quote


I don't think there is a definitive history on white appearing in these dogs. Some older texts do have mentions of dogs with white, white dogs, etc., but nothing definite.

One of the parti clubs has several old texts on their website.

I've found mention in a book from 1894 of off colored dogs in the ring. Here's a quote from it...

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"There are some other rough-haired toy terriers, which are, however, of little account, because they have never been bred to any particular type. Occasionally wee things very like what a miniature Skye terrier would be are seen; and, again, some smart little dogs with cut ears, evidently a cross between a Yorkshire terrier and some other variety of small dog, are not at all uncommon, and were quite numerous before the dog show era commenced. Since then the general public will not look at anything other than what is considered to be of blue blood. At one of the early London shows separate classes were provided for Scotch terriers under 71b. weight and white in colour, fawns with the same limit, and blues likewise, each of the three attracting a fair entry, most of which were, however, what we should now call "cross-bred" broken-haired toy terriers."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...and this is from the breed standard for the Yorkshire Terrier from the same book.

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"Coat
The hair as long and straight as possible (not wavy), which should be glossy, like silk (not woolly); colour, a bright steel blue, extending from the back of the head to the root of the tail, and on no account intermingled the least with fawn, light, or dark hairs."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


here's the link... The Terriers. A History And Description Of The Modern Dogs Of Great Britain And Ireland | by Rawdon B. Lee

Thanks for those references! So it seems we had some breeders trying to cross Yorkshires with other breeds even back then! It does show thta we have tried very hard to keep the other colors OUT of the yorkshire terrier for a good long time too. That is what saddens me at so many increasing the white -- whether it be a fault or a purposeful cross-breeding. White does not belong in the Yorkshire Terrier. Your example of early breeding records show they have tried very hard to keep it out as part of perfecting the breed. Makes me wonder what good is a standard, if everyone were to ignore it?

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I've been wanting to ask, but didn't have the guts to before, (same reason I never asked about Joan Gordon) has there ever been any all steel blue or black yorkie? I have seen threads where people are proud of their all white yorkies, or close to it, and I think I recall seeing an all tan one. (can't remember, it could have been a mix) So has there ever been a yorkie that is all dark before? Or would the dark ones be considered "chocolate" or liver colored yorkies. Sorry if that's a dumb question, I was just wondering.

Good question! Although I have seen some where the tan part is very dark (out of standard) I have not seen one with all black or steel blue. A true chocolate still has tan, they just have a dark brown where a yorkie is supposed to be black/blue. They also usually have liver colored nose instead of black. I have seen the all gold/tan yorkies. I would be interested in reading the genetics of why we don't see the all black as an occasional fault. Maybe some of the experienced breeders have seen one. I'll watch for more answers.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by concretegurl

I'm blown away I thought Biewers and Parti's were different! My mind is so confused now! So they stereotypical black(ish) white and semi red (tan) toned Biewer is actually just a Parti at the extreme? So when people say Tri-colored they are talking about Biewers and Partis!?
I posted pics of the stereotypical Biewer first and the most commonly found example of a Parti-thus you can see the difference-was I the only one missing that whole part-WOW?
I thought the Biewer was a Parti the first time I saw one-then I thought they were different types of Yorkies now they're the same-my head is spinning here!
Good thing I'm reading this thread and learning! So breeding Parti to Biewer is a non-issue (what's this Biewer to Biewer only breeding claim ppl make then?) then because they are the same and both share a recessive gene which has been brought out purposefully-considered a "fault" gene or not...it was first attempted to be bred out and now attempted to be bred back in?
When the breeder whom bred one of my dogs explained to me she ended her Parti line and began breeding Biewers and that Elvis was purely the product of four generations of Parti to Parti directly showing his lineage to the (Nikko) line she was fudging it as Partis and Biewers are the same just somewhat divided now? Out of curiosity what is the division now?
And why is there a Poodle (schnauzer) looking (mix) dog in the pic of the Biewer's dogs? Yorkie guard dog?

Now you are in to OPINION. There are several clubs for both the Biewer and Parti-color yorkie. Most do not agree that they are the same dog. AKC accepts Parti to register (not to show and not recommended to breed) but they do not register Biewers. If you breed Biewer to Parti -- those puppies cannot be registered with AKC -- one of the NON-KC registries have to be used if the AKC Parti is dual-registered. It is not so clear cut as to say they are the same dog. If they are the same then there is some drastic differences in the lines.

[Breezeaway]

Yes, there are all black , all gold and there are all blue yorkies. The all blue yorkies are called blue borns and most have health issues.
T

The word parti is in reference to the parti colored yorkie.
The breed is Yorkshire Terrier, the color stated on the AKC papers says " Black and tan Parti color.
People just use the term parti yorkie to describe their tri colored dogs. They are not a separate breed. Just a different color.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

Now you are in to OPINION. There are several clubs for both the Biewer and Parti-color yorkie. Most do not agree that they are the same dog. AKC accepts Parti to register (not to show and not recommended to breed) but they do not register Biewers. If you breed Biewer to Parti -- those puppies cannot be registered with AKC -- one of the NON-KC registries have to be used if the AKC Parti is dual-registered. It is not so clear cut as to say they are the same dog. If they are the same then there is some drastic differences in the lines.

What do you mean Drastic differences?

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Yes, there are all black , all gold and there are all blue yorkies. The all blue yorkies are called blue borns and most have health issues.
T

The word parti is in reference to the parti colored yorkie.
The breed is Yorkshire Terrier, the color stated on the AKC papers says " Black and tan Parti color.
People just use the term parti yorkie to describe their tri colored dogs. They are not a separate breed. Just a different color.

I have read a tiny bit about blue borns. It was my understanding that they have a skin condition, which I assumed was the cause of the off coloring. Can anyone clarify?

The reason I ask about all steel blue/black yorkies is there are lots of times that I've read diseases can be corolated when breeders breed in search of a single trait. (color, size, etc.) The only partis I've ever seen are pictures on YT. I've never seen one in person. As far as I can tell, the parti gene seems harmless since the babies on YT all seem relatively healthy. It's not a fact however and I'm not stating that partis are healthier than traditionals, as I have done 0 research into the health of partis vs traditional yorkies. But that does sound like an interesting summer project. Size I have seen there is more care and concerns when breeding for size, but I've yet to hear about partis. That is until this post.
If blue borns are the "blue" version of parti yorkies, I would suspect that maybe there is a correlation between color and illness. Can anyone elaborate on this?

[Breezeaway]

No, blue borns are not the product of partis, any yorkie can have blue borns.
Peter Coombs book written between 1870 and 1880 states that puppies are often born grey and tan (Which is what today we call blue borns). The gene that produces the grey coat dies and the puppy will lose all its hair. It becomes a hairless dog with only tan which of course carries the living gene to produce this color. This is a blue gene that is a lethal gene. Again it developed in England where it originated from.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

No, blue borns are not the product of partis, any yorkie can have blue borns.
Peter Coombs book written between 1870 and 1880 states that puppies are often born grey and tan (Which is what today we call blue borns). The gene that produces the grey coat dies and the puppy will lose all its hair. It becomes a hairless dog with only tan which of course carries the living gene to produce this color. This is a blue gene that is a lethal gene. Again it developed in England where it originated from.

No, I don't mean they are the products of partis. More like they were the "dark" version of a gene mutation similar to partis. Sorry for the confusion!

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

I have read a tiny bit about blue borns. It was my understanding that they have a skin condition, which I assumed was the cause of the off coloring. Can anyone clarify?

The reason I ask about all steel blue/black yorkies is there are lots of times that I've read diseases can be corolated when breeders breed in search of a single trait. (color, size, etc.) The only partis I've ever seen are pictures on YT. I've never seen one in person. As far as I can tell, the parti gene seems harmless since the babies on YT all seem relatively healthy. It's not a fact however and I'm not stating that partis are healthier than traditionals, as I have done 0 research into the health of partis vs traditional yorkies. But that does sound like an interesting summer project. Size I have seen there is more care and concerns when breeding for size, but I've yet to hear about partis. That is until this post.
If blue borns are the "blue" version of parti yorkies, I would suspect that maybe there is a correlation between color and illness. Can anyone elaborate on this?

Parti is just the description of a color of a yorkie with white on it, When you say Parti colored yorkie it means that they have white. Some have shortened to phrase from parti-colored to Parti. Just like a Parti colored cocker spaniel, it means they are spotted.
Parti colored yorkies have the same health issues as traditional colored yorkies. That is why you should never buy a puppy either parti colored or traditional that has never had any health tests done or the parents DNA'd and health tested.
There are too many people out there that DO breed anything and pass them off as something they are not.. Be very careful when buying any pet.

[Breezeaway]

There are gene mutations in all sorts of animals. Over and over it has been recorded to Just show up out of nowhere.
The Labrador retriever has had alot of odd colors show up, even out of 2 Champion dogs.
Mismarks & other odd markings in Labradors part 2 - Woodhaven Labradors

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

Yes, there are all black , all gold and there are all blue yorkies. The all blue yorkies are called blue borns and most have health issues.
T

The word parti is in reference to the parti colored yorkie.
The breed is Yorkshire Terrier, the color stated on the AKC papers says " Black and tan Parti color.
People just use the term parti yorkie to describe their tri colored dogs. They are not a separate breed. Just a different color.

I have not seen any examples of all black. I've seen pictures of blue born, chocolates but no all black. Do you have any pics? Makes sense that some would be born, just have never once heard of a breeder saying they have an all black one.

For DvlshAngel -- Blue born pups often have problems and very often do not survive long.

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Breezeaway

What do you mean Drastic differences?

I mean comparing the original Biewers with some of what are being sold as Parti's now, there are drastic physical differences. For instance.... Mr. Biewer bred his tri-color yorkies to have white bellies and four white paws. The standard for Biewer includes: "The head must have three colors; blue/black, white and gold in good symmetry. The belly, chest, legs and the tip of the tail is white. Full tail. The back is black/blue or black/blue with white in it. The hair is silky, not curly. "

Taking a look through many of the sites selling partis today and you will not see anything close to that -- no consistency. I just went to the very first entry that came up on a bing search for parti yorkies for sale: Female Parti Yorkies, puppies for sale in OK. Take a look at the male & female part yorkies -- most of them do not have 3 colors on their head, not a lot of symetry, brown on feet, and one appears to only have 2 colors. Just compare "Cart's Parti Tyme Paris" to one of Mr. Biewer's dogs! There are drstic differences. I went to the second one that came up on the search Female Yorkshire Terriers and Female Parti yorkies -- again, the dogs being shown as parti's do not look anything like the beautiful dogs that Mr. Biewer bred. "Maggie" for instance is drastically different from Mr. Biewer's dogs, and doesn't have much of the "yorkie look." Let's go to the third kennel on the search result: Yorkshire Terriers, Parti Yorkies, Chocolate Yorkies, Golden Yorkies,Dogs and Puppies for Sale. These puppies are losing the yorkie look. The face, the head shape, the coloring -- not at all what Mr. Biewer had in mind, I don't think.

These are not at all the worst or the most drastically different that I have seen -- some do not even look like they have yorkie in them anymore. But I did not want to look for the worst case scenario -- instead I went with the first three on a search engine result -- that way it is completely unbiased.

I have read that there is a parti standard and that it is the same as the yorkie with the exception of color which is two or more colors, one of which is white. I have also read there is no standard for the parti. Since the Biewer require 3 color and give specific markings, the "standard" given on some parti sites is not at all the same. So, little wonder they would be drastically different. If there is no standard, then again, that does not lead breeding toward any particular goal so again, no wonder they are so different than Mr. Biewer's carefully planned results.

[Breezeaway]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I mean comparing the original Biewers with some of what are being sold as Parti's now, there are drastic physical differences. For instance.... Mr. Biewer bred his tri-color yorkies to have white bellies and four white paws. The standard for Biewer includes: "The head must have three colors; blue/black, white and gold in good symmetry. The belly, chest, legs and the tip of the tail is white. Full tail. The back is black/blue or black/blue with white in it. The hair is silky, not curly. "

Taking a look through many of the sites selling partis today and you will not see anything close to that -- no consistency. I just went to the very first entry that came up on a bing search for parti yorkies for sale: Female Parti Yorkies, puppies for sale in OK. Take a look at the male & female part yorkies -- most of them do not have 3 colors on their head, not a lot of symetry, brown on feet, and one appears to only have 2 colors. Just compare "Cart's Parti Tyme Paris" to one of Mr. Biewer's dogs! There are drstic differences. I went to the second one that came up on the search Female Yorkshire Terriers and Female Parti yorkies -- again, the dogs being shown as parti's do not look anything like the beautiful dogs that Mr. Biewer bred. "Maggie" for instance is drastically different from Mr. Biewer's dogs, and doesn't have much of the "yorkie look." Let's go to the third kennel on the search result: Yorkshire Terriers, Parti Yorkies, Chocolate Yorkies, Golden Yorkies,Dogs and Puppies for Sale. These puppies are losing the yorkie look. The face, the head shape, the coloring -- not at all what Mr. Biewer had in mind, I don't think.

These are not at all the worst or the most drastically different that I have seen -- some do not even look like they have yorkie in them anymore. But I did not want to look for the worst case scenario -- instead I went with the first three on a search engine result -- that way it is completely unbiased.

I have read that there is a parti standard and that it is the same as the yorkie with the exception of color which is two or more colors, one of which is white. I have also read there is no standard for the parti. Since the Biewer require 3 color and give specific markings, the "standard" given on some parti sites is not at all the same. So, little wonder they would be drastically different. If there is no standard, then again, that does not lead breeding toward any particular goal so again, no wonder they are so different than Mr. Biewer's carefully planned results.

First off the original Biewer standard has been changed several times. Once the Biewers hit the United States is when all the changing of the names and standards took place. The 3 color standard was not Mr. Biewers standard. He named them Biewer Yorkshire A LA Pom Pon.
Isnt it funny how in the Biewers, that in the same litter of puppies they can be registered differently. The tri color pups are registered as a biewer and the traditional colors are registered as yorkshire terriers. They both have the same parents and were born in the same litter, so now tell me how they can be separate breeds???
The parti and the biewer are yorkies, the color on their head turns tan/ gold as they get older just as the yorkie does. Now as to how light or dark the tan/gold is, well thats breeding. Alot of show people dye their yorkies in order to have that perfect color.
There are bad breeders in every breed of dog.
There are yorkies that don't look like yorkies posted all over puppy find, actually its the same in any breed.
This is a Biewer in the first picture, does he look like the dogs in the 2nd photo of Mr Biewer with his dogs.
The 3rd photo is a Biewer and the last photo is Parti yorkies.
Wonder which ones look more like Mr Biewers dogs.