Tail docking

[QuickSilver]

Wylie's Mom, would you mind bumping that thread?

I know for me, when I read about puppy mill seizures in other states, it always makes me wonder, what can I do here? I end up feeling kind of confused and helpless. Personally I'd love to see a lot more traffic in the Animal Welfare and Protection section. I do feel like I learn bit by bit though, and hopefully one day it will translate into real action.

[Wylie's Mom]

It's here http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/yor...ml#post2989026

Listen, I don't mean to get touchy, but come on folks - there is really just no need to tell people what they should and should not be discussing. How would that feel in a thread where you had invested emotion/passion/thoughts/questions? Just please maintain open minds -- this is *just* a discussion...

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I hear what you're saying Jim, but I think it's up for the individual to decide. There is a member above saying that being a BYB is an "atrocity" - if that's her opinion, I don't think it's my place to tell her it's simply wrong. If the OP finds tail docking an atrocity, well, that's her opinion.

I have my own opinions about what an atrocity is, and yes, one of them is genocide.

What is *really* confusing me (and concerning me) on this thread though, is there seem to be so many people trying to say "please, we should stop discussing this and discuss other things"....um huh? This discussion is 17 pages long, so obviously people want to discuss it .

The classic definition of atrocity is one of genocide, mass killings and the like. Maybe I'm being anal, but I don't like to see the power of words squandered needlessly. It only dilutes their power and distorts our perspective. For me, it's an important point and is not hair-splitting. Just so you have an idea of where I'm coming from...

I'm not directing this at you personally, Ann....I think we know each other well enough. I don't think that grossly mis-using words is a matter of opinion, though. I mean up is up, down is down, left is left, etc....except for the word 'is'. Then it depends on what you mean by it .

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by friscomom

Extreme words like atrocity are generally (mis-)used in effort to express and convey a huge amount of violent emotion safely. Where there is moderate emotion there will be moderate words which folks can respond to more readily and deal with the actual issues without hysteria. That's why there are moderators.

Exactly, I think certain emotionally charged words are used to manipulate people's feelings, and they start thinking emotionally instead of logically. When people use these words, I try to throw on the breaks, because I'm actually a very emotional person, and I try to figure out how they are trying to manipulate me, and why.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

Can we stick to discussing the actual topic please?

For those who think this topic isn't worthwhile, there are a bunch of other topics here. Please don't post in this thread to just tell people that this discussion isn't worthy, those posts will be deleted going forward.

I posted a while ago about a puppy mill seizure, it's had 12 views, [U]no replies[/U]...so...where's that puppy mill passion? Sorry, yeah, I'm confused today folks...

I so agree with you Ann...it breaks my heart because I think so many people "talk" a good game but won't do anything to help and will stay away from these type of discussions. I see so many ways people can help and nothing happens...just more blah blah blah...

I also believe if we can get people to think more deeply about their dogs, be it tail docking or puppy mills then great we might help save more dogs. We still have long time members buying dogs from puppy mills, breeders breeding for tinies and the list could go on...Maybe it is a lost cause but I think if we can change just a few mind then we have helped save a few more lives...

[Wylie's Mom]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

The classic definition of atrocity is one of genocide, mass killings and the like. Maybe I'm being anal, but I don't like to see the power of words squandered needlessly. It only dilutes their power and distorts our perspective. For me, it's an important point and is not hair-splitting. Just so you have an idea of where I'm coming from...

I'm not directing this at you personally, Ann....I think we know each other well enough. I don't think that grossly mis-using words is a matter of opinion, though. I mean up is up, down is down, left is left, etc....except for the word 'is'. Then it depends on what you mean by it .

I didn't take it personally at all ...I know you better than that, Jim. I know exactly where you're coming from! Well, except for the word "is" of course ...we cannot confirm the meaning of that word!

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Wylie's Mom, would you mind bumping that thread?

I know for me, when I read about puppy mill seizures in other states, it always makes me wonder, what can I do here? I end up feeling kind of confused and helpless. Personally I'd love to see a lot more traffic in the Animal Welfare and Protection section. I do feel like I learn bit by bit though, and hopefully one day it will translate into real action.

Just remember you can't save them all but if you can do your part and help educate people then you are helping. It is when people just type they are against puppymills then it is just words...

I remember a thread I posted about a man in rescue who drove 5 hours to pick up a dog that had been hit by a car and her pups were on the front porch and the owner of the dog let her lie in the snow and did nothing for her. The rescue person got there and convienced the man to let him have her and the pups...they nursed her back to health...and guess what..the owner sued the rescue..the rescue was facing 20 years in prison (because he didn't get a signed release)...I asked members to write letters and I can't remember right now but I think maybe 10 people said anything...

Good Lord we have a thread on here for a missing dog that IMHO should be taken private at this stage because it keeps pushing important issues out of the way. While I feel bad about the missing dog, there have been other people who have come on and no one does anything with those missing dogs. I just get confused on how concerned people really are..

Okay sorry, have to get off my soapbox...

[Woogie Man]

Originally Posted by Wylie's Mom

I didn't take it personally at all ...I know you better than that, Jim. I know exactly where you're coming from! Well, except for the word "is" of course ...we cannot confirm the meaning of that word!

Yeah, it'll take an act of Congress to determine that one .

BTW, I posted in the thread you linked. It's sad to see that happening so close to home.....but at least that one got busted.

[Ellie May]

I'll probably regret posting on this thread later, but here goes.

So we should "not" dock tails because it is painful and potentially harmful and only for cosmetic reasons?

Yorkies have a higher c-section rate than a lot of other breeds, probably because they are small. Size is appearance. Appearance is vanity. So now we are back to a cosmetic issue, really. So it could be said that by breeding larger Yorkies, there would be less risk (pain and potential harm) to the mother(s). So we should change this standard too then?

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Woogie Man

Yeah, it'll take an act of Congress to determine that one .

BTW, I posted in the thread you linked. It's sad to see that happening so close to home.....but at least that one got busted.

How many years have people attempted to get Jeff Dane shut down. He's no longer in business, but passed the bussiness onto another family member who lives in another location. Correct avenues have been taken.....and yet, because he has the money he avoided being shut down.

For everyone Puppy Mills that is shut down, hundreds are still operating and more crop up on a daily basis.....

We can speak and discuss all this stuff until we're blue in the face, but unless we put our money where our mouth is, it'll continue.

Join an Animal Welfare Group, your local kennel club, get involved with pet legislation via PetPac. Donate to research to stamp out animal disease......

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by Ellie May

I'll probably regret posting on this thread later, but here goes.

So we should "not" dock tails because it is painful and potentially harmful and only for cosmetic reasons?

Yorkies have a higher c-section rate than a lot of other breeds, probably because they are small. Size is appearance. Appearance is vanity. So now we are back to a cosmetic issue, really. So it could be said that by breeding larger Yorkies, there would be less risk (pain and potential harm) to the mother(s). So we should change this standard too then?

You know Dr. Centers says that breeding smaller has caused a lot of the issues that are facing our breed.

[WinstonMom]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

You know Dr. Centers says that breeding smaller has caused a lot of the issues that are facing our breed.

So many issues that have been brought up here (teacup yorkies, tails docked too short, etc) really boil down to the reputable breeder vs the BYB and puppy mill so perhaps this is the real issue.

[livingdustmops]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

How many years have people attempted to get Jeff Dane shut down. He's no longer in business, but passed the bussiness onto another family member who lives in another location. Correct avenues have been taken.....and yet, because he has the money he avoided being shut down.

For everyone Puppy Mills that is shut down, hundreds are still operating and more crop up on a daily basis.....

We can speak and discuss all this stuff until we're blue in the face, but unless we put our money where our mouth is, it'll continue.

Join an Animal Welfare Group, your local kennel club, get involved with pet legislation via PetPac. Donate to research to stamp out animal disease......

He and his brother (two separate operations) have the law ignoring the complaints..

People need to get involved and I think reputable breeders need to be more outspoken and come up with solutions...limit number of litters, what to do with animals being turned into shelters because of bad placements, demanding AKC stop with giving registration to large volume organizations..etc.. How many times have breeders come on YT and just tell people to vote down legistrations because they feel breeding is a right...and many people just go along with everything and don't study any of the issues because they have been frightened into believing there will be no more pets if some of these things change...

We have byb and small scale mills right here on YT but because people think the breeders are "nice" then everything continues...

[Cerise]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

Not offensive at all, but it's probably a better practice not to comment on anyone's dog unless it's 100% positive. People are touchy about their pups, just human nature.

True! Just as commenting about their kids.

So... too all furkid human moms... they are ALL cute

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by livingdustmops

He and his brother (two separate operations) have the law ignoring the complaints..

People need to get involved and I think reputable breeders need to be more outspoken and come up with solutions...limit number of litters, what to do with animals being turned into shelters because of bad placements, demanding AKC stop with giving registration to large volume organizations..etc.. How many times have breeders come on YT and just tell people to vote down legistrations because they feel breeding is a right...and many people just go along with everything and don't study any of the issues because they have been frightened into believing there will be no more pets if some of these things change...

We have byb and small scale mills right here on YT but because people think the breeders are "nice" then everything continues...

But, if you're speaking about California's AB250, that was voted down in California. YTCA and AKC fought against it. It would have put even the small ethical, reputable breeders out of business. There would have been no more dog shows in California. A similar bill was passed in Florida, very difficult to get a reputable breeder to answer phone calls or e-mails......they've gone underground and some of them have even stopped breeding and showning. Yet, Puppy Mills, Brokers and BYBers are still operating there in the open and selling sick pups.

Yes, there are BYB and small scale mills right here on YT, and you're right because they present themselves as nice and YT members really aren't as knowledgable as they think they can't spot them.