An Offer you couldn't refuse ;)

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by IHeartSnS

I usually tend to keep my nose out of drama like this but I really agree with Rachels point that this post was not about puppy mills in any way shape or form. She was announcing her puppies new name and was looking for a response to the name. It's possible that she didn't know that APRI supports puppy mills, it's an honest mistake, I didn't know untill this thread. But instead of getting a huge lecture about how bad puppy mills are and why would you waste your money, it could have been put in a less abrasive, more tactful way. Maybe like "cute name rachel but did you know that APRI supports puppy mills? maybe you could try _____ (fill in the blank) instead." I do notice that many many posts get out of hand like this all over an innocent post from someone that is maybe younger and maybe hasn't had a bunch of dogs throughout their life. If you want to help these people you need to be welcoming and be willing to take them by the hand and teach them not just dump a whole bunch of information out like that. My step dad used to lecture me about everything and it got to the point where I would automaticaly tune him out as soon as he started. I learn by simple explinations and someone taking my hand and walking me through it. I'm sure other people are the same way. Next time if you want to inform someone about puppy mills (or anything really) don't come at them like "how dare you don't know this" teach them like they are your child and they are learning something new.

I know why some might think this seeing just this one thread....but ....This was not her first rodeo -- iow this was discussed in previous posts, like before she actually finalized the sales transaction with the APRI breeder. I think a lot of good information came out in the thread. Several people said it was the first time they had learned about APRI's roots. To me that makes it all worthwhile!

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by EverythingMiley

If you ask me I think there should be a limit of breeding dogs any breeder can have. I also think it should be mandatory that the dogs arn't allowed to be kept in an outside kennel . to Me most breeders are no better than BYB or puppymills..If you have a bunch of dogs and they spend their life in a kennel..to me you are apuppy mill. I don't care if you show your dog or feed them top dog food..groom them daily or what you do..if your dogs spend their lives in an outside enclosure to me you are a glorified puppymill..

The great breeders of days gone by all had big unattached Kennels. Anne Rogers Clark, The Gordon Sisters (who are the matriarchs of the Yorkshire Terriers in the USA). How do you think they were able to breed as many Champions as they did. Granted they all had great Kennel Help and On-Call Vets and spent every waking hour with their dogs......Some of the greats of today have Kennels, although most of them are attached to their homes, and facilities are meticulous dogs are played with daily and trained.....play outside.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by EverythingMiley

If you ask me I think there should be a limit of breeding dogs any breeder can have. I also think it should be mandatory that the dogs arn't allowed to be kept in an outside kennel . to Me most breeders are no better than BYB or puppymills..If you have a bunch of dogs and they spend their life in a kennel..to me you are apuppy mill. I don't care if you show your dog or feed them top dog food..groom them daily or what you do..if your dogs spend their lives in an outside enclosure to me you are a glorified puppymill..

i agree with you wholeheartedly on the point about limiting the number of dogs that a breeder can have at once in their facility as a breedable dog, however, i completely disagree with you on making them keep all their dogs inside their homes. how can someone possibly be forced by law to have all their breeding dogs in their home. sure they shouldn't have like 30 female dogs out in an outdoor kennel, but i see nothing wrong with having a few female dogs inside their own areas in an out-building. as long as the breeder spends every day with the dogs and lets them outside into the yard for playtime a few times a day and takes care of their needs, i see nothing in the world wrong with having an out building facility as long as the dogs have an indoor environment with outdoor playtime.

[EverythingMiley]

YOu see nothing wrong with a dog living its life in a kennel? So it's petted and played wiht a few times a day..
and who cares how many show dogs a breeder can put off..all htey need to put off is one and if they do that andthat one wins then i'd say they have a pretty good idea what the standard is and how to breed to the standare..It doesn't take 20 dogs to do that. We have enough breeders in the world that if each kept 5 or 6 in their home and bred we'd all have enough and if there was a shortage than maybe more would adopt from shelters..let me put u in prison give you a tv..come pet you once a day and groom you and see if you are really happy.

[EverythingMiley]

besides this is my opinion and you will NEVER change it..just as you can have yours..I just hope for the sake of all those poor dogs..the majority some day will realize what these poor dogs have to endure..no true family to ever call their own..I think the only good breeders are the ones on here that keep them in their homes..they top all others if yu ask me..

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by EverythingMiley

YOu see nothing wrong with a dog living its life in a kennel? So it's petted and played wiht a few times a day..
and who cares how many show dogs a breeder can put off..all htey need to put off is one and if they do that andthat one wins then i'd say they have a pretty good idea what the standard is and how to breed to the standare..It doesn't take 20 dogs to do that. We have enough breeders in the world that if each kept 5 or 6 in their home and bred we'd all have enough and if there was a shortage than maybe more would adopt from shelters..let me put u in prison give you a tv..come pet you once a day and groom you and see if you are really happy.

so a breeder of dobermans should be required by law to keep all of their breedable dobermans in the house with them at all times???

i think not!! breeders have used out building kennels for as far back as i know about. you cannot possibly say that every breeder who has a kennel for dogs is a puppy mill and don't you know that AKC stands for American KENNEL Club. this is a club for KENNELS. i'm not saying all kennels are good and proper, but requrining breeders to keep all of the dogs they raise in their home is nuts. you can't expect them keep more than two or three dogs in the house with them and all their puppies to 12 weeks of age as well. that's asking a little too much there IMO

[mnewco]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

I think you have the wrong impression about registries, they are not used for prestige, they aren't used for any type of status, a dog registered with one registry over another is no better than any other dog. However, the registries do say very much about the breeders. Honestly, why in the world would you want to give APRI one red cent when you know that they were founded by commercial breeders? It's like you want to show you undying support to the millers. Breeders use legitimate registries to search pedigrees, and pet owners register their dogs with legitimate registries, to show support for the work they are doing, including ridding themselves of puppy mill breeders.


I think it's fine and fun that you want to give Sadie a formal name, but no need to register her and give them any money. Just make birth announcements and send to your friends or something like that. Please don't support APRI breeders.

Nancy,

Please don't bring up puppy mill breeders again to insult Rachel. I think she has had enough of this.

This is not what the thread is about. She is offering to help those that want to find a nice name for their dog. Doesn't matter where they are registered. She is not asking about registries. Just making an offer.

I feel that we all need to get off her back about where she purchased her puppy. I personally am tired of reading about it everytime I read one of her threads. This is a good way to chase a member off the forum and that is not nice. I think you owe her an apology. I honest to God think that a lot of them members want her to leave and that is why this subject is brought up so often to her.

She bought the dog and she is not giving it back and now it is time to get over it. I have and I have moved on.

End of subject.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

i agree with you wholeheartedly on the point about limiting the number of dogs that a breeder can have at once in their facility as a breedable dog, however, i completely disagree with you on making them keep all their dogs inside their homes. how can someone possibly be forced by law to have all their breeding dogs in their home. sure they shouldn't have like 30 female dogs out in an outdoor kennel, but i see nothing wrong with having a few female dogs inside their own areas in an out-building. as long as the breeder spends every day with the dogs and lets them outside into the yard for playtime a few times a day and takes care of their needs, i see nothing in the world wrong with having an out building facility as long as the dogs have an indoor environment with outdoor playtime.

California just passed a limit to any breedable anything.....female or male, I think the number is 50. Now, how is that going to be inforced when you have a cattle rancher...

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion, but until you've walked in someone's shoes...and witnessed first hand how dogs are raised and cared for I don't think anyone's opinion is valid. Opinions should be based on first hand experience, not just on feelings. My dogs are kept in my house, but I only have very few......they are played with throughout the day.....but, not every moment....most of the time they're laying on a bed and sleeping or interacting with one another.

[FlDebra]

I personally would not want to have more dogs than I could have in my home. I do not want to make my dogs into livestock. But I know there are many outdoor kennel set ups that are humane and sanitary, where they let the dogs out for daily exercise and personal time with people.

There are laws in the works that could use our support along these lines. The Illinois Chloe Bill is one of those. It limits breeders to 20 unspayed/unneutered animals. That is a doable number to realistically provide nurturing. Any more than that, I do not see how they could provide any quality time with their dogs.

On a national level, there is H.R. 6949, the Puppy Uniform Protection and Safety Act was co-sponsored by Representatives Sam Farr (D-CA), Jim Gerlach (R-PA), Lois Capps (D-CA), Terry Everett (R-AL), and Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL) -- it got introduced late and no action taken yet. Among other things, it requires that all dogs being used in breeding be allowed out of their cage for daily exercise. It requires breeders to get a license from the USDA if they raise more than 50 dogs in a 12-month period and sell directly to the public and sets forth reasonable standards of care for commercial breeders. Enforcing those reasonable standards of care could go a long way to improving the lot of puppymill dogs. Enforcement would be crucial to make it worthwhile though.

I send out periodic emails in support of these intiatives. I basically say the same thing each time, but I figure one in a thousand emails ever really get read by the pol I am sending them to. So, I just keep on sending them.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by FlDebra

I personally would not want to have more dogs than I could have in my home. I do not want to make my dogs into livestock. But I know there are many outdoor kennel set ups that are humane and sanitary, where they let the dogs out for daily exercise and personal time with people.

There are laws in the works that could use our support along these lines. The Illinois Chloe Bill is one of those. It limits breeders to 20 unspayed/unneutered animals. That is a doable number to realistically provide nurturing. Any more than that, I do not see how they could provide any quality time with their dogs.

On a national level, there is H.R. 6949, the Puppy Uniform Protection and Safety Act was co-sponsored by Representatives Sam Farr (D-CA), Jim Gerlach (R-PA), Lois Capps (D-CA), Terry Everett (R-AL), and Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL) -- it got introduced late and no action taken yet. Among other things, it requires that all dogs being used in breeding be allowed out of their cage for daily exercise. It requires breeders to get a license from the USDA if they raise more than 50 dogs in a 12-month period and sell directly to the public and sets forth reasonable standards of care for commercial breeders. Enforcing those reasonable standards of care could go a long way to improving the lot of puppymill dogs. Enforcement would be crucial to make it worthwhile though.

I send out periodic emails in support of these intiatives. I basically say the same thing each time, but I figure one in a thousand emails ever really get read by the pol I am sending them to. So, I just keep on sending them.

It's my opinion had the PAWS law been passed we would not be fighting legislation in every state that is beyond comprehensible

USDA is one thing I wouldn't want governing my breeding program. They do require that you have a detached facility from your home.....seperate kitchen for preparing food, and so many other stipulations that would make it impossible for the small reputable breeder to continue with their programs

[EverythingMiley]

if you think just because a breeder is AkC that hey can't be a puppymill you are WRONG..There are just as many puppymills closed where the breeder had akc as there is any other registry. And yes if they have more dogs then they can house in their home then thy have too many dogs IMO.
I agree with what one poster said..they aren't livestock..
For those that agree with kennels then please do us all justice and quit coming on here and sayin how they are loved and treated like family cause you woulnd't stick your family in a kennel would you? If you must run a kennel then call it what it is a dog farm..

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by mnewco

Nancy,

Please don't bring up puppy mill breeders again to insult Rachel. I think she has had enough of this.

This is not what the thread is about. She is offering to help those that want to find a nice name for their dog. Doesn't matter where they are registered. She is not asking about registries. Just making an offer.

I feel that we all need to get off her back about where she purchased her puppy. I personally am tired of reading about it everytime I read one of her threads. This is a good way to chase a member off the forum and that is not nice. I think you owe her an apology. I honest to God think that a lot of them members want her to leave and that is why this subject is brought up so often to her.

She bought the dog and she is not giving it back and now it is time to get over it. I have and I have moved on.

End of subject.

I don't even know where to begin with your statement that Nancy needs to back off Rachel was not informed as to what the registry she was planning on registering Sadie was really all about. From this thread she and many others have much more knowledge regarding this subject. Nancy has been very straight forward with her education to many, many YT members~including myself. She is a long standing and respected member of this community and I take GREAT offense that you feel after being here for 2 months that you are speaking for the majority? Wow.....wow......wow!

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I don't even know where to begin with your statement that Nancy needs to back off Rachel was not informed as to what the registry she was planning on registering Sadie was really all about. From this thread she and many others have much more knowledge regarding this subject. Nancy has been very straight forward with her education to many, many YT members~including myself. She is a long standing and respected member of this community and I take GREAT offense that you feel after being here for 2 months that you are speaking for the majority? Wow.....wow......wow!

I agree with you 100%. I too take great offense when a well respected YT member who does nothing but educate, is chastised by a new member.....The Forum seems to have had a lot of that lately...

[FlDebra]

Originally Posted by Mardelin

It's my opinion had the PAWS law been passed we would not be fighting legislation in every state that is beyond comprehensible

USDA is one thing I wouldn't want governing my breeding program. They do require that you have a detached facility from your home.....seperate kitchen for preparing food, and so many other stipulations that would make it impossible for the small reputable breeder to continue with their programs

The bill only requires USDA licensing, if they raise more than 50 dogs in a 12-month period and sell directly to the public and sets forth reasonable standards of care for commercial breeders. I don't think that would apply to any "small reputable breeder." 50 puppies in a year is a LOT of puppies! I think they included the people selling more than 50 a year to the public because previous laws covered commercial breeders. To get over on that, they sell to intermediaris (brokers) and then the broker actually sells to pet stores. So, now either way -- if they are selling over 50 a year, they will have to get a license. I think that is fair.

[EverythingMiley]

just because your a member thats been here longer doesn't mean you have more knowledge or are always right. I agree with so many newbies on here..thankfully it hasn't happened to me But see it all the time the seniors here attacking the freshmans. I don't know how many times I've seen someone come here ask a question and then get attacked and the question NEVER gets answered. MAYBE you old dogs need to realize that us young dogs could teach you a thing or two