An Offer you couldn't refuse ;)

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by MorkieMomii

But you still have to save them. No deaths justify the cause. Conception needs to be prevented. The laws do suck. Well said.

Purchasing them is being part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Just my opinion of course.

Yes, the laws suck...or the lack thereof.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by MorkieMomii

Ok so with these two statements I just don't get it. If breeders really wanted to put puppy mills out of business then why not breed to sell and advertise to people to ensure they buy from someone who cares. I don't mean this in any mean way at all, but if you are going to tell someone not to go buy something they want from place A because it is bad and to buy from place B, but then you can't find place B and when you do, place B won't let you have the product.

There really is a conflict in that.

Good breeders really have enough to do, don't they? The pet buyer should be the one responsible for putting mills out of business, let not throw another responsibility on the good breeder. The good breeder isn't really breeding to supply the public with pets; they really feel like they have something to offer the breed. If all you want is a pet, there are plenty of them out there already. I'm not against commercial breeding, it's just that in order to do it properly, they would have to charge way more than what the public wants to pay for a dog. As long as people see cheap dogs as "good deals" millers will stay in business.

[megansmomma]

Originally Posted by red98vett

You make perfect sense. The same theory applies to pet shops like you said. Once a puppy is bought - another from a mill is brought in to replace that puppy and the cycle continues.

It's very VERY hard not to want to save them but, in reality, people are keeping them in business by buying. It's all about profit.

I'm glad you mentioned auctions. That's another disgusting practice that needs to stop. It's like our country turns a blind eye to the plight of all these poor animals. Even on the news, when they have the tv adoptions, there is hardly any mention about the thousands being abused/neglected LEGALLY in Mills all over the country.

Our laws just SUCK.

All of the things that I have learned are from sitting back and listening and adsorbing what is being written and said about all of these issues. It is hard to sit back and not take them all in but there are so many that are dying we cannot possibly save them all. It is just a very sad situation with not enough education being done or the education falling upon deaf ears. I have said it a millions time~if the general public knew what was really going on and took the time to educate themselves they would be holding flaming touches in front of every pet shop, puppymill and mill auction in this country. Sadly it is much easier to turn your head and continue to shop pet shops and bybers to get a quick puppy fix. If people knew that dogs were stuffed into gas chambers and gassed to death they would be horrified! If they knew "how" millers PTS their unwanted dog they would be speechless. If people knew that sick puppies are routinely tossed into the trash bins at pet shops they would NEVER step foot inside a pet shop. But unfortunetly, there are so many that are unwilling to accept this as reality in the puppy "business".

[ladyjane]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Good breeders really have enough to do, don't they? The pet buyer should be the one responsible for putting mills out of business, let not throw another responsibility on the good breeder. The good breeder isn't really breeding to supply the public with pets; they really feel like they have something to offer the breed. If all you want is a pet, there are plenty of them out there already. I'm not against commercial breeding, it's just that in order to do it properly, they would have to charge way more than what the public wants to pay for a dog. As long as people see cheap dogs as "good deals" millers will stay in business.

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by MorkieMomii

Ok I see what you are saying now. Is is a blessing though that they were saved no matter which way you look at it. It is a really hard place to be in. Do you help the Mom and pups even at a price or leave them for further abuse. Neglected they end up with health issues making them less likely to be adopted or they get put down. Like I said in my earlier post, and I just feel so strongly about preserving animal life, but I would rather pups get to there forever homes early and get medical care. This is definatley a much more out of control situation in the US than in Canada. Maybe expecting better government control there is a dream? I only understand your system from what i see on TV.

you nailed it. That's why so many people do buy and it's totally understandable. You see an animal in need and you want to help - but there's a bigger picture.

The big picture is the hard one. Do you walk away and NOT put money in their pockets... or do you contribute even with good intentions ? Me personally - I choose not to contribute and never go in a store that sells dogs. Pet Land is my biggest boycott. (I got asked to leave the only one I ever stepped foot in) and am proud of it !

and what you said about our 'system' is right on. We don't have one that serves the need of the dogs. Too many people are making money and of course the government gets their cut. Things are getting better but have a long LONG way to to.

I'm from Canada but don't know the laws....sounds like the U.S. could learn a few things from the north.

[MorkieMomii]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

Good breeders really have enough to do, don't they? The pet buyer should be the one responsible for putting mills out of business, let not throw another responsibility on the good breeder. The good breeder isn't really breeding to supply the public with pets; they really feel like they have something to offer the breed. If all you want is a pet, there are plenty of them out there already. I'm not against commercial breeding, it's just that in order to do it properly, they would have to charge way more than what the public wants to pay for a dog. As long as people see cheap dogs as "good deals" millers will stay in business.

I don't think it is solely the breeders responsibility, I think it is the governments though. It should be illegal to purchase a puppy from anyone except a government registered and monitored breeder. No way should it be legal to sell pups or any large animal in stores. I am sure all reputable breeders would be happy to be on that list. Anyone else selling a pup then is charged.

Like I said earlier, children are not bred in mills and sold in stores. Why doesn't the government have laws for animals...oh I have a quote for this..

"Ever occur to you why some of us can be this much concerned with animals suffering? Because government is not. Why not? Animals don't vote." ~author unknownl

[Ladymom]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

So when you looked at rescues you found a bunch of older dogs, mostly male, weird colors, health issues, bad habits to retrain? Where do you think these dogs came from? Think about it for a minute. Do you think good breeders produced these dogs? The reason I encourage people to support the best breeder they can find, is that I want the others to go out of business, and in supporting poor breeders, you are supporting more dogs being born, that people don't want. It's true, a beautiful healthy Yorkie, is going to be adopted much faster than one with health issues and weird looking. In addition, a good breeder's dogs seldom need rehoming, because they are selective in finding homes for their dogs. They want to teach you proper care of the pup, so it doesn't develop bad habits, and make rehoming necessary. I just want to add that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and rehomed dogs, take on a special beauty, and so do their owners.

I'm not blaming you for wanting a puppy, I believe that this is a personal decision, and if someone thinks that they have the skills necessary to produce a well trained dog, I say go for it, but I always encourage people to take the time, and find a really good breeder, and read everything they can on what to look for in a breeder and questions to ask. What's done is done, and I'm not trying to rehash old threads. I don't wish to cause you upset or anguish, but it just seems like you are whitewashing the whole puppy mill situation, and I hope you rethink some of your views, and as someone stated earlier, "If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem." How about starting a new thread that just says you will help with names, but don't mention any registries? If you hadn't mentioned APRI, I never would have replied. I think a naming thread would be a fun thread, and I'm sorry that this got hijacked, but I hope someday, you will understand why so many of us think this is so important.

Once again Nancy, wonderful post.

If you had truly researched rescue, you would have realized that your misconceptions about only older males with health and behavioral issues being available were wrong. Rescues get many wonderful, healthy, beautiful dogs who were turned over through no fault of their own. The top reasons dogs are turned into shelters are moving, landlord issues, cost of ownership and no time for the dog.

Rescues do get puppies. Pregnant females are regularly turned in or confiscated. With Missouri being the Puppymill Capital of the US, I would expect a higher than normal number of pregnant females to end up in shelters and private rescues.

If you had actually contacted a rescue, you would have been told that the young, adoptable dogs go quickly so anyone who is interested should fill out an application beforehand.

As far as health issues, what makes you think that a puppy from an APRI kennel who does no health testing will be healthier than a rescue? You probably aren't aware that rescues thoroughly vet all the dogs they take in and take care of any necessary health problems like luxating patellas before they are adopted out.

[MorkieMomii]

Originally Posted by red98vett

you nailed it. That's why so many people do buy and it's totally understandable. You see an animal in need and you want to help - but there's a bigger picture.

The big picture is the hard one. Do you walk away and NOT put money in their pockets... or do you contribute even with good intentions ? Me personally - I choose not to contribute and never go in a store that sells dogs. Pet Land is my biggest boycott. (I got asked to leave the only one I ever stepped foot in) and am proud of it !

and what you said about our 'system' is right on. We don't have one that serves the need of the dogs. Too many people are making money and of course the government gets their cut. Things are getting better but have a long LONG way to to.

I'm from Canada but don't know the laws....sounds like the U.S. could learn a few things from the north.

This is such a good conversation but have to get some housework done LOL. I think the only reason it isn't so bad here is because we only have 30 million people to police!! We do have pet stores that sell pets but so many of these come from family breeders. The bigger stores go to the homes check the family and also provide you with all the info on the parents of the pups and if local you can go there and see them. There are still bad breeders here no doubt but we just don't have the population to support a huge puppy mill system.

Thanks for the conversation all, have a great day!

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by MorkieMomii

Ok so with these two statements I just don't get it. If breeders really wanted to put puppy mills out of business then why not breed to sell and advertise to people to ensure they buy from someone who cares. I don't mean this in any mean way at all, but if you are going to tell someone not to go buy something they want from place A because it is bad and to buy from place B, but then you can't find place B and when you do, place B won't let you have the product.

There really is a conflict in that.

No conflict at all. We breed for ourselves first, looking for our next Champion to add to our breeding program. Not every litter produces that dog that is Champion and breeding material, those are the pups we place in pet homes. Our primary objective is not to sell puppies. As far as advertising, most of us don't have to, we have waiting lists of prescreened families. And as you said, most people don't want to wait, so they're going to buy from a Puppy Mill or BYBer anyway. The people that have taken the time to educate themselves, have researched are those that have obtained information on the breeders to seek out and know how to contact them. Will we ever put Puppy Mills out of business, I don't think so. The laws that have been put in place can be easily circumvented by Puppy Mills, they breed on a large scale and have the financial means to pay all the fees and fines.

Think about it, reading the numberous posts on YT......Looking for a puppy.....so, much info on here on how to go about it, where to go, who are the reputable breeders, they just don't want to take the time and want the puppy yesterday. If most would realize when they're looking on the internet and visiting this breeder and that breeder (whoever they may be) all 8 to 12 week puppies are adorable.....which one wouldn't grab your heart.....and you can't wait to get it home.

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by MorkieMomii

I don't think it is solely the breeders responsibility, I think it is the governments though. It should be illegal to purchase a puppy from anyone except a government registered and monitored breeder. No way should it be legal to sell pups or any large animal in stores. I am sure all reputable breeders would be happy to be on that list. Anyone else selling a pup then is charged.

Like I said earlier, children are not bred in mills and sold in stores. Why doesn't the government have laws for animals...oh I have a quote for this..

"Ever occur to you why some of us can be this much concerned with animals suffering? Because government is not. Why not? Animals don't vote." ~author unknownl

Canada has a wonderful system in place....They've come down to California and spoke to various government officials on how and why it works.....California has chosen not to listen.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

So when you looked at rescues you found a bunch of older dogs, mostly male, weird colors, health issues, bad habits to retrain? Where do you think these dogs came from? Think about it for a minute. Do you think good breeders produced these dogs? The reason I encourage people to support the best breeder they can find, is that I want the others to go out of business, and in supporting poor breeders, you are supporting more dogs being born, that people don't want. It's true, a beautiful healthy Yorkie, is going to be adopted much faster than one with health issues and weird looking. In addition, a good breeder's dogs seldom need rehoming, because they are selective in finding homes for their dogs. They want to teach you proper care of the pup, so it doesn't develop bad habits, and make rehoming necessary. I just want to add that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and rehomed dogs, take on a special beauty, and so do their owners.

I'm not blaming you for wanting a puppy, I believe that this is a personal decision, and if someone thinks that they have the skills necessary to produce a well trained dog, I say go for it, but I always encourage people to take the time, and find a really good breeder, and read everything they can on what to look for in a breeder and questions to ask. What's done is done, and I'm not trying to rehash old threads. I don't wish to cause you upset or anguish, but it just seems like you are whitewashing the whole puppy mill situation, and I hope you rethink some of your views, and as someone stated earlier, "If your not part of the solution, your part of the problem." How about starting a new thread that just says you will help with names, but don't mention any registries? If you hadn't mentioned APRI, I never would have replied. I think a naming thread would be a fun thread, and I'm sorry that this got hijacked, but I hope someday, you will understand why so many of us think this is so important.

i very much appreciate your approach here, this comment came across to me as sincere, kind and honest all the same time.

i know you are very passionate about stopping puppy mills and i hope someday that i might even be able to join you in that cause. i don't blame you one bit for wanting to stop them, they are horrible and terrible things, but i also want others to realize that while i might be a bit naive and new to the world of buying puppies, i'm not trying to support puppy mills. i have learned a lot from you all on YT and i have also had times that i felt i did nothing more than get stressed out over a little too much drama. it goes both ways, learn something, get treated badly, learn something else from another person. take the good with the bad. i did want to mention this though about educating people and how to come across to get your point to be taken...

as nancy has done with this post, i think all posts and informative comments should be much the same:

i'm sure glad for all the good information and without YT there are plenty of things i wouldn't have known about yorkies. i do appreciate that very much and i also love the kindness that some people have shown on here with sending clothing for nothing and being so sweet. i just hope that over time they will learn that i'm not a bad person and i only strike back when my tail gets stepped on if someone wants to give information more power to them, but when it's not presented as a take it or leave or not presented kindly to me, i am probably going to get offended and naturally get a little defensive rather than hear them out...it's pure human nature.

when educating someone, if the information is presented in a kind, encouraging, way it is always absorbed and taken into consideration, when info is presented in a condescending or somewhat heated or a little harsh manner, even when it's not intended to be that way, if it sounds that way to the reader or hearer, it makes the person defensive, shut down, close off, and not want to hear one more word that the person with the info has to say.

it's the same way with my husband, if i tell him that he needs to change something and i'm coming at him with my claws out, he won't listen to my concerns or feelings he'll shut down emotionally and go into defensive mode (which in turn pisses me off the same way my defensiveness pisses you guys off)

if i go at it with love and kindness he always sees the need for the change and takes my suggestion to heart and actually tries to please me and do what i asked of him in some form, or at least wants to discuss the matter if he doesn't agree without lashing back out at me.

i just want us all to learn to educate each other and help each other out in a little bit more tactful manner, i know that most of you have been very tactful from the beginning, but if people say that was a little harsh, there is a reason they have said that, so don't go on the defensive back at them and tell them that you are only being honest with them when they feel attacked. if someone gets defensive and feels beaten up, apologize and try to rephrase what you meant to say so they are more willing to accept it. otherwise you create a rift between your info and their brain and they will never open up to it and learn what you so much desire for them to learn.

tactfulness goes a long way, especially on a forum that you cannot see or hear people when they talk, it's all reading...so re read your posts and make sure what is said comes across kindly and cannot be taken the wrong way...

we deal with this all the time in our jobs with email and texting as the new way to communicate. it's wonderful how fast and easy and convenient it is to email or text, but we're missing the key link to communication, the non verbal behavior of the person speaking and the inflections and tone of voice, it's hard to tell sometimes how a person is sounding when you read their thoughts rather than hear them speak their mind.

this has all been a big dramatic mess that shouldn't have ever happened, but i hope the lessons learned are not only that puppy mills suck and shouldn't be supported (which i will not be by registering APRI) but that also we have to learn some kindness on YT and talk to each other with a little more tact in order to get the point across and to actually get through to a person we desperately want to educate

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by MorkieMomii

I don't think it is solely the breeders responsibility, I think it is the governments though. It should be illegal to purchase a puppy from anyone except a government registered and monitored breeder. No way should it be legal to sell pups or any large animal in stores. I am sure all reputable breeders would be happy to be on that list. Anyone else selling a pup then is charged.

Like I said earlier, children are not bred in mills and sold in stores. Why doesn't the government have laws for animals...oh I have a quote for this..

"Ever occur to you why some of us can be this much concerned with animals suffering? Because government is not. Why not? Animals don't vote." ~author unknownl

I don't think we want the Government's hands in anymore down here. However, YTCA and other breed clubs have laws/rules/code of conduct and ethics in place to monitor their members......Much of it is self-regulated and you either have the passion to do it right for the good of the breed or you don't and breed for $$$$$$.

[RachelandSadie]

Originally Posted by megansmomma

I was not trying to be "outright rude and horrible". Let me explain to you a little about me since you only joined YT a little over a month ago. I came to YT looking for knowledge in August 2007 because I wanted to add a puppy to my home. I too had many misconceptions about where, how and who to purchase a puppy but I wanted to learn from knowledgeable people. It was months before I posted for the first time and introduced myself. By that time I had grasped as much knowledge as possible from the many, many post that I had read. I had also taken in a rehome Pebbles who was from my friend. Pebbles has many behavioral issues because she was taken from her mom too soon and under socialized with her siblings. I hired a trainer and read many book on dog behavior as I possibly could to further educate myself. It was during this time that I also became involved in rescue and began volunteering. I then added a little puppy Doodlebug to our little family who is a puppy mill rescue. His mom was purchased from an auction and he was one of her liter. I felt at the time I was making a difference by "help" save a rescue. Since that time I have become further educated and changed my views on this subject as well. I have since learned from YT that this practice enable the millers to continue the suffering within the mills by making a new spot for a younger dog as well as putting money into the millers pockets. Then I began volunteering with YHR and became even more active within the YT community because I felt KNOWLEDGEABLE enough to make a meaningful contribution. It is my belief that information that I have contributed to this forum is meaningful and informative. I have been both a student and teacher within this community. I have learned and tough while making friends and sharing fun stories. I spend most of my time in the Rescue Forum trying to help and save as many dog as possible. There have been members of YT that have decided to join YHR and other rescues to try and make a small difference in this sometimes cruel world we live in. Other have found wonderful new additions to their homes in the Rescue forum. I added both Truman my foster and also Bogey from the Rescue Forum. You can look at all of my posts and see that I have made a genuine positive contribution to the community with my 2,417 posts. Most are well thought out and thoughtfully worded to provide information and guidance to whomever I am posting a response. Yes~I have been called rude in the past but sometimes the truth needs to be told and I sometimes it does have a little sting.

good to know more about you, sorry for the nasty post, i was getting a bit overwhelmed...since we are mostly ladies here i'll just throw out some honesty myself, i got my nice little gift today... so i do apologize for getting defensive again and for being a pain in the butt...i'm a real firecracker when my hormones take off on me and i sure as heck don't mean to be, ask my DH, he's dealt with me for two years, i'm hard to handle when i get my hormones screwed up and today just happened to be that day and you guys were in the path of the flying bullets...

I'm really sorry!!

[Mardelin]

Originally Posted by RachelandSadie

good to know more about you, sorry for the nasty post, i was getting a bit overwhelmed...since we are mostly ladies here i'll just throw out some honesty myself, i got my nice little gift today... so i do apologize for getting defensive again and for being a pain in the butt...i'm a real firecracker when my hormones take off on me and i sure as heck don't mean to be, ask my DH, he's dealt with me for two years, i'm hard to handle when i get my hormones screwed up and today just happened to be that day and you guys were in the path of the flying bullets...

I'm really sorry!!

Nothing to be sorry about......What you have posted about being careful how you post has been discussed many a time on YT.....discussed!!!!! more like argued. What everyone has come to realize (and sorry you are new and just caught blindsided) there are so many of us long time members that are just passionate about yorkies and animals, it's just the way it is. As time goes on you'll be one of those members too.....mark my word. I get the feeling you're a new member that will be around for a long time. You can always get a feel for those that join for their personal agenda.

[crystalsmom]

I haven't been on in weeks but knowing about this thread, I feel those that have not seen it with their own eyes might need some visuals.

Indiana Amish Puppy Mill on Yahoo! Video

AKC registration is so important if you are getting a pet and don't let them talk you out of it. AKC would see if the dam was being bred over and over again and their membership would be revoked and have to register with a registry that will take anyone.

We just had an occasion with birth defects after inbreeding. Now if the pedigree was offered for you to see, you would know if there was such a thing going on within this breeders home or kennel.

Nothing is perfect but AKC is by far the best registry along with the CKC (canadian kennel club)