Mill argument

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Hey Kelly...did Brett ever read this thread? I wanted to know what he thought after reading everyone's responses. Come on Brett...help me out here.

[Lady of Yorkies]

I bought my first Yorkie from a place that you might consider a mill if you are counting the dogs, she had 4 maybe 5 breeds and a lot of dogs. I went into the home, puppy kennel and the dogs kennels, she didn't try to hide anything and showed me her whole set up. The puppies kennel I went into smelled but she had 3 or 4 mothers and their babies in there. I didn't think it would be out of place for it to smell. You can't keep the place clean 24/7 when you have a lot of babies running around. There's not much I would change about her set up.

I'm not sure how many dogs the first breeder had but the next place had over 60. I can't tell you much of a difference between these 2 places but I would definately call the next one a mill.

The other place I was invited into their home and the puppies and parents were brought to me. They said that they had a whelping going on and didn't want them disturbed. Sounds like a good reason, huh? The dogs and puppies needed a bath. Not that they weren't taken care of but they knew I was coming so why weren't they clean? I would call these people a puppy mill. They seemed clean but the dogs were in cages attached to the side of a building. They could come and go inside and out but the cages were stacked 3 high. If they got out for a run, I couldn't see where they did it.

I plan on breeding and when I put puppies up for sale I think they should be clean. Maybe not just before customers come but they need to look decent when they are shown.

I have spoken to people who have and are selling their puppies to a broker. Why? They get at most $650 for Yorkie pups. Where does that make sense? They could get that much sitting on a corner selling the pups themselves. The pet stores are getting at least 3x that much. If you are only going to take $650, I think you should do it yourself or not bother breeding. Why are they letting these people make a profit off them? If you buy a puppy that ends up being sick wouldn't you go back to the pet store? If you go back to the pet store are they stupid enough that they don't blackball these breeders after it happens more than once?

And my last thought. What the he** good is a registry if they don't keep track of stuff like this? I was just thinking about this as I read this thread. All the AKC is good for is telling you that your dog is pureblood and may have champions in their background. Why aren't they reported to when there are sick dogs? Why aren't they handling this? They are a big business. They aren't doing what they do for free. If I went to Mrs. So&So and bought a puppy, no matter the price, and that puppy came down sick, whether or not it was genetic, and I reported it to the AKC they could do an investigation. If there are enough reports on Mrs. So&So and they are the same parents that are throwing these sick puppies, it should be on the pedigrees. If I went to buy a puppy from Mrs. So&So and asked to see the parents pedigrees and there in black and white it said that this dog has illnesses in his/her background, I would know I don't want any of her puppies.

Actually I think that is a good idea. Wonder what it would take to get them to do it? Everyone says the AKC is the best but there are so many other registries out there now maybe this would put them back on top. Sylvia

[Lady of Yorkies]

Ok, more last thing. If it were reported on the pedigrees that illnesses run in this dog's families, it should cut down on the puppy mills and pet stores. Who is going to buy a puppy when you can ask to see the pedigee and it is full of sick dogs? I know, I know. People can lie, people can show you the wrong pedigee, but if you come up with a sick dog and there's no mention of it on the pedigree then something can be done about the breeder. It seems to me it all comes down to the registry. They should all be responsible for the quality of the breeds. This sounds like reasonable controls to me. Sylvia

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by Francie

Interesting thread....but since when has "price" ever been the definitive proof of quality in any commodity in this country? I think GENETICS play a much bigger role in the health of any Yorkshire Terrier...and you can "feed them the best food"...blood panel the grandparents, parents, siblings and pup until you're blue in the face...but if that pup is not genetically sound....it will not matter WHAT "best of care" you provide.

As I write this....my sister in law's 2 year old " yorkshire terrier is once again fighting for his life. This poor dog has severe metabolic problems, from bloating....bloody stools....etc (which none of the vets she has taken him to can figure out why, only to tell her it is something he was born with.). She loves him to death...and would do anything for him...but she has spent nearly three times his initial cost on his health care. And let me tell you...she paid in the thousands for him (from a "professional breeder" no less). And the clincher? Her sister paid $700 bucks for her yorkshire terrier which has never been sick in his life...and is closer to the standard for a Yorkshire!

As far as I'm concerned...you can wash, buff, paint and glue a Jaguar on the hood....but sometimes...it is what it is....a PINTO!


Francie

Oh do I AGREE with you Francie !! I've been looking at yorkies for a long time now and I also was very surprised at this comment
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
I would never buy a $500 dog because I know there is no way they were properly cared for, or, if they were, it it just not fair to the breeder, imo.

The average person doesn't have thousands of dollars....I've seen some pretty high priced yorkies that didn't look any better than most of our average priced babies - I for one think there are many many breeders out there pricing in the right range....They cover their costs and we get gorgeous yorkies - without spending thousands of dollars.

We're also seeing many using Marketing Techniques to 'trick' or convince people they are getting something special by using terms like Teddy Bear - Teacup and Baby Doll Faced - Plus asking much higher prices for those terms.

What happened to the term Standard Yorkie ? They don't need enhancing - they're all gorgeous no matter what the Flavor of the Month is.

I REALLY hope your sister in laws little yorkie is doing better - After spending thousands of dollars I hope the breeder is incurring some of the cost for that poor baby to get better !! she must be sick with worry !

[red98vett]

I'm actually curious as to Bretts sleeping arrangements ? hehe - Is the couch comfy or does he NOT know the answer to that yet ?

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by red98vett

Oh do I AGREE with you Francie !! I've been looking at yorkies for a long time now and I also was very surprised at this comment
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
I would never buy a $500 dog because I know there is no way they were properly cared for, or, if they were, it it just not fair to the breeder, imo.

The average person doesn't have thousands of dollars....I've seen some pretty high priced yorkies that didn't look any better than most of our average priced babies - I for one think there are many many breeders out there pricing in the right range....They cover their costs and we get gorgeous yorkies - without spending thousands of dollars.!

But, Villette you have admitted over and over that you got Chanel from a "bad" breeder as you call her, and she didn't take good care of her and her littermates properly which is why she came down with coccidia in your opinion. I think if you want to stop breeders like that you have to be willing to pay a "fair" price for the baby so the breeder CAN take proper care of them without losing money. I doubt your breeder "covered her costs" or maybe she did, but she didn't have enough "costs" to provide proper care apparently.

[StewiesMom]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

But, Villette you have admitted over and over that you got Chanel from a "bad" breeder as you call her, and she didn't take good care of her and her littermates properly which is why she came down with coccidia in your opinion. I think if you want to stop breeders like that you have to be willing to pay a "fair" price for the baby so the breeder CAN take proper care of them without losing money. I doubt your breeder "covered her costs" or maybe she did, but she didn't have enough "costs" to provide proper care apparently.

I disagree. The quality of care has a lot to do with the person and his or her values and NOT the price.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by red98vett

What happened to the term Standard Yorkie ? They don't need enhancing - they're all gorgeous no matter what the Flavor of the Month is!

Now here can agree that ALL yorkies are gorgeous!

The fact is that some yorkie fanciers like different attributes for different reasons. For example, a lot of people like smaller cuz they are easier to take with you and when they can travel well they make great service dogs.

Some people like the short, baby faced snout so they look like babies for their whole lives, some like long legs, some like a dark coat, some like a lighter coat....this is what makes life and yorkies and their fanciers interesting. There are some breeds where every dog is a cookie cutter copy of the ohter and it is almost boring...I mean they are cute and all but one of the htings I really like about the yorkie is the different looks you get within the same breed!!!! And now with the Biewer we have expanded on the breed even further and once partis and chocolates are more accepted, it will be even better.....Variety is the spice of life as they say!!!

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by StewiesMom

I disagree. The quality of care has a lot to do with the person and his or her values and NOT the price.

I see your point Kristy but if that breeder had a problem with a mother with ocysts and she had to decide whether to treat the puppies preventatively or not and whether to buy albon when the chances are most of the puppies would never get coccidia she would have to decide whether to raise the price and treat them or have a better chance of selling thme at the reduced price.

Obviously, if people would be impressed with the extra care she gave and pay the EXTRA price for that extra care then her decision would be easier imo.

The fact is...the quality of care has to do with the person as well as the cost becuase most breeders are not wealthy enough to lose money on their puppies so they may be great caring people but not provide the "very best" becuase some people don't want to pay for the very best. Some people want a good deal.

I don't think we, as puppy adopters should be looking for a GOOD DEAL I guess is my point...they are living beings, not a car....

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

But, Villette you have admitted over and over that you got Chanel from a "bad" breeder as you call her, and she didn't take good care of her and her littermates properly which is why she came down with coccidia in your opinion. I think if you want to stop breeders like that you have to be willing to pay a "fair" price for the baby so the breeder CAN take proper care of them without losing money. I doubt your breeder "covered her costs" or maybe she did, but she didn't have enough "costs" to provide proper care apparently.

Thank you for making my point. I do not refer Chanels breeder - She has also increased her prices to profit off the new TERMS to describe yorkies. she never had DOLL FACE or Tea Cup but does now AND is charging more.

You don't have to shell out big bucks for a great yorkie - Both BAD breeders and good breeders can sell you a yorkie with health problems or other ailments - Look at the Wizard of Claws and their prices - MANY sick yorkies are sold off that site and they sell in the thousands.

you can get a perfectly gorgeous yorkie for a acceptable amount - it just depends on the breeder .........STILL - I wouldn't pay upwards of 2 THOUSAND dollars for a yorkie - I couldn't afford to nor would I have to - there are tons out there for affordable prices.....and believe me - I wouldn't trade my Chanel for all the yorkies in the world - just because she was under a thousand dollars does not mean she's inferior

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by StewiesMom

I disagree. The quality of care has a lot to do with the person and his or her values and NOT the price.

I AGREE !! Thank you Kristy - Chanels breeder is STILL a bad breeder and is now jumping on the bandwagon increasing her prices over all the new terms -

The Quality of Care comes from the PERSON themselves - Charging MORE for yorkies does NOT make a good breeder. Paying MORE does NOT mean you get a better yorkie. It's all in the Breeder and the ethics and a NON wealthy breeder can breed quality yorkies just as easy as a wealthy one - I really resent the fact that yorkies under a certain price are being singled out....

After looking at tons of yorkie pictures and talking to people for the last 3 years - Some of the prettiest yorkies I've seen were under $1000.00

[shecass]

Originally Posted by red98vett

Oh do I AGREE with you Francie !! I've been looking at yorkies for a long time now and I also was very surprised at this comment
Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr
I would never buy a $500 dog because I know there is no way they were properly cared for, or, if they were, it it just not fair to the breeder, imo.

The average person doesn't have thousands of dollars....I've seen some pretty high priced yorkies that didn't look any better than most of our average priced babies - I for one think there are many many breeders out there pricing in the right range....They cover their costs and we get gorgeous yorkies - without spending thousands of dollars.

We're also seeing many using Marketing Techniques to 'trick' or convince people they are getting something special by using terms like Teddy Bear - Teacup and Baby Doll Faced - Plus asking much higher prices for those terms.

What happened to the term Standard Yorkie ? They don't need enhancing - they're all gorgeous no matter what the Flavor of the Month is.

I REALLY hope your sister in laws little yorkie is doing better - After spending thousands of dollars I hope the breeder is incurring some of the cost for that poor baby to get better !! she must be sick with worry !

That is outrageous. I paid $500 for Mollie we got her from a very good friend of mine. She had the best of everything from the day she was born until now and forever. Mollie is in perfect health. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to start anything. So plese no one get angry.

I persoally do not have thousands of dollars to spend on any animal at all, and probably wouldn't if I did have it. It's just outrageous. But of course this is just my opinion I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I am in now way condeming(sp) the people that do this is just my preference. Even if I wanted to my husband would tell me no way. He didn't like paying $500 for Mollie he thought it was too much.

[txshopper73]

Originally Posted by StewiesMom

The quality of care has a lot to do with the person and his or her values and NOT the price.

You can pay $10,000 for a yorkie that can die within a month or $400 for a male that will be healthy as an ox. It all comes back to doing your research. Go to the place and really inspect it. Are the dogs healthy? Who does the shots/worming? Have they ever been vet checked? What are the personalities of the parent dogs? there are so many aspects to dog purchasing and you have to look at an inspect each of those.

With me, I want my pups to be vet checked and have never bought a pup that wasn't. I had my pups vet checked even twice to make sure that they were healthy enough to leave my home. There's nothing wrong with it, sure it cut into the money that I would have gotten, but I would rather the future owner be happy with their pup then to sell them something they would have to spend thousands trying to get well.

JMO

[shecass]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

You can pay $10,000 for a yorkie that can die within a month or $400 for a male that will be healthy as an ox. It all comes back to doing your research. Go to the place and really inspect it. Are the dogs healthy? Who does the shots/worming? Have they ever been vet checked? What are the personalities of the parent dogs? there are so many aspects to dog purchasing and you have to look at an inspect each of those.

With me, I want my pups to be vet checked and have never bought a pup that wasn't. I had my pups vet checked even twice to make sure that they were healthy enough to leave my home. There's nothing wrong with it, sure it cut into the money that I would have gotten, but I would rather the future owner be happy with their pup then to sell them something they would have to spend thousands trying to get well.

JMO

Well said. I completely agree.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by txshopper73

You can pay $10,000 for a yorkie that can die within a month or $400 for a male that will be healthy as an ox. It all comes back to doing your research. Go to the place and really inspect it. Are the dogs healthy? Who does the shots/worming? Have they ever been vet checked? What are the personalities of the parent dogs? there are so many aspects to dog purchasing and you have to look at an inspect each of those.

With me, I want my pups to be vet checked and have never bought a pup that wasn't. I had my pups vet checked even twice to make sure that they were healthy enough to leave my home. There's nothing wrong with it, sure it cut into the money that I would have gotten, but I would rather the future owner be happy with their pup then to sell them something they would have to spend thousands trying to get well.

JMO

Of Course...all of your points are good but if you compare the facilities and care of those who sell $500 pups to those who sell $1200 pups
I have seen a huge difference and it just makes sense that the nicer, cleaner facility has spent more money on the care of the babies and they have to ask more so as not to lose money.

What does it cost you to raise an average pup and provide it with the very best care? Taking into account his litter mates and his mother and father cuz some may have more health issues, etc.