Mill argument

[troubletb]

Wow, this is going to be one of those really long threads!!! On and on it will go, But as long as we agree that there are Mills and these Mills need to be closed!!

[Kelz]

Yes they do!!!!

[PCMom]

I bought Pepper from a petstore. He arrived at the petstore from a woman who breeds yorkies and other breeds..a backyard breeder...via Hunte Corp. the countries biggest puppy broker. I won't go into my opinion of Hunte.

I went to Pepshop puppies.com, they did a search to find out if Pep's breeder had any Citations (sp?) on her record..she had one. There was an excess of waste near the cages of the big dogs.

Pepper has an illness called Cerebellar Abiotrophy. I have been searching for information about this illness for over a year now..the experts are still trying to understand and cure it. The latest info is: they now believe that both parent carry a recessive gene and that one of them has to have an ACTIVE case of CA. Most likey everyone one of their puppies will have this devistating (I am truly sorry for my spelling!) disease. It is a neurological disease that effects his balance among other things. But the thing is..it isn't all of the time (yet). So, if this woman keeps her dogs in cages, even if she let it out an hour a day for excersize, she feeds and waters them, they get their shots, and she keeps their area clean, without being able to see them walk around she wouldn't know that she is filling this world with puppies whose lives are hell! Is she a puppy mill? I think she is...even if all the conditions I said above were met (I don't believe they are but even if) these puppies she is mass producing are really living in hell! Pepper's legs will eventually quit supporting him at all and at that time I will have to put him to sleep...I love him too much to let him try to live like that! I am one of those who view her pets as her children...LOL just ask my human kids!

Please understand that this is not an attack...I am really curious if you would all consider her a mill...I don't want to start anything! I am still after over a year with Pepper trying to deal with his illness. One that I now know could have been prevented by just not breeding those 2 dogs! This is all just my opinion!

Kathy and Sir Pepper

[Kelz]

If she is mass producing... that's a red flag.. and even if shes not a mill she should NOT be breeding if her dogs have that kind of problem!! that's just wrong to bring puppies into the world that are going to have to be put to sleep

[Francie]

Originally Posted by red98vett

No offense - but a PUPPY MILL DO Exist and they DO Grind up those poor dogs. Maybe not literally but you just go visit some websites and see those poor faces and those HORRIBLE CONDITIONS and you may change your mind. Their STATE OF MIND is ground up and destroyed just like they destroy them when they are of no use to the EVIL Owners of Mills.

The are far too many MASS BREEDING Facilities - they ARE Puppy Mills. When I got my very first Cocker Spaniel 10 years ago we were in what I now classify as a MILL....It was FULL of over 200 barking sad negelected cockers and though at the time I had NO CLUE what I was seeing and never heard of mills before - I was crying for all those poor dogs. They were totally MISERABLE.

You're sadly mistaken if you think Mills are figments of peoples imaginations - they are a sad reality and stopping the sales of puppies in Pet Stores can put a dent in that evil business - but I'm also sad to know that they will probably always exist in some form until people are severly punished for mis-treating animals.

ps...there are all kinds of pet owners - many of us consider them family members and are treated as such...My girls LOVE wearing clothes but I don't force them to do this - I see happy faces when I dress them - it's not only for my enjoyment - it's for warmth in the winter and cuteness in the summer.

Many people consider pets as pets - that's fine too - as long as they take care of them I'm sure they're happy pets - but I think those of us with yorkies who treat them special have REALLY happy little dogs....I wouldn't change how I treat my girls for anything. Since my kids are grown - it's like having small children again and I just love it. So do they.

Villette...

You know..I think we are all unanimous in our belief system about the humane treatment of animals. We are ALL animal lovers here...otherwise..we wouldn't be here on this site. And I know the majority of us feel that supporting these puppy mills is not in the best interest of all animals. But what happens to those puppies who are born in a puppy mill? If they could talk...I think they would give anything to be in a loving home...to be doted on...cared for...treated like "small children". Why shouldn't they get a chance to? Why PUNISH the innocent?

I would LOVE to believe that by not buying a "puppy mill" puppy, it would eradicate these mills..but the truth is that as long as greed exists in this world...there will be people who will try to use defenseless animals as a commodity. I'm just saddened at the choice we have to make....to save ONE life...or turn our heads away...and walk on..in the HOPE that by doing so, humanity will come to its senses.


Francie

[Kelz]

funny you bring that up.. we talked about that last night. i feel that puppies from puppy mil should not be bought..i DO feel that people should go in a rescue them and put them up for adoption. Like i said to brett last night..i would not buy one..but if one was up for adoption b/c he was recused..i'd def. adopt him

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Brett~~

Thank you so much for your post! I asked this very question in a thread a little while ago and almost got "Run off YT"!!! Here is the link because you and others interested in this subject may want to read it.
http://www.yorkietalk.com/forums/sho...ight=Puppymill

I have never wanted to appear to defend anyone who mistreats animals so I have had to tread lightly, but I know that most people who own dogs do not place them on the pedestal that we here at YT do.

I do dress my dogs because I like to and I do treat them like my children to a certain extent, but, despite that fanaticism, I understand that we are not the norm and that what some on here would consider mistreatment may not really be in the "real" world so to speak.

[Kelz]

haha i agree with the we are not the norm. I dont really think any of my friends understand why i am like i am with my dogs.. but i dont care!! One thing they do know is my dog is very well taken care of and loved!

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Francie

Villette...

You know..I think we are all unanimous in our belief system about the humane treatment of animals. We are ALL animal lovers here...otherwise..we wouldn't be here on this site. And I know the majority of us feel that supporting these puppy mills is not in the best interest of all animals. But what happens to those puppies who are born in a puppy mill? If they could talk...I think they would give anything to be in a loving home...to be doted on...cared for...treated like "small children". Why shouldn't they get a chance to? Why PUNISH the innocent?

I would LOVE to believe that by not buying a "puppy mill" puppy, it would eradicate these mills..but the truth is that as long as greed exists in this world...there will be people who will try to use defenseless animals as a commodity. I'm just saddened at the choice we have to make....to save ONE life...or turn our heads away...and walk on..in the HOPE that by doing so, humanity will come to its senses.


Francie

This is a terrific point...in fact i know people who do this and call their dog a "rescue" dog cuz they rescued him in their eyes. I too believe that as long as it is legal and no mistreatment is happening there will always be dogs for sale and breeders making money from it.

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by Francie

Villette...

You know..I think we are all unanimous in our belief system about the humane treatment of animals. We are ALL animal lovers here...otherwise..we wouldn't be here on this site. And I know the majority of us feel that supporting these puppy mills is not in the best interest of all animals. But what happens to those puppies who are born in a puppy mill? If they could talk...I think they would give anything to be in a loving home...to be doted on...cared for...treated like "small children". Why shouldn't they get a chance to? Why PUNISH the innocent?

I would LOVE to believe that by not buying a "puppy mill" puppy, it would eradicate these mills..but the truth is that as long as greed exists in this world...there will be people who will try to use defenseless animals as a commodity. I'm just saddened at the choice we have to make....to save ONE life...or turn our heads away...and walk on..in the HOPE that by doing so, humanity will come to its senses.


Francie

I agree with the point you make Francie- the idea is not to turn our backs on Mill puppies - but most are sold directly to Pet Stores or brokers. When a Pet Store puppy is sold - they need to replace it.

IF no one BOUGHT that Pet Store puppy - the need for replacememts will drop - it's sad and sounds terrible....I would LOVE them all to have homes myself..... but until the government does something... the best way to hit mills is hit them in the pocket. Which means don't buy a Pet Store puppy. If Mills don't have customers like Pet Stores - they won't need to mass breed...and that means less unwanted dogs....

but yes..I totally understand your feelings - either way dogs lose - the ones in the mills and the ones in the Pet Stores - This whole thing is heartbreaking and a sad reality - but the mass breeding really would drop if Pet Stores were not allowed to sell.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by sylvan

I'm with Villette on this one. I personally don't dress my dogs for fun, theirs or mine, because it's mostly pointless, the other kids undress the dressed ones as fast as I can put the stuff on! though I will admit to the occasional funny hat. We do have sweatshirts for chilly outings, but that's about it.
My view on the mill thing is this...mass production of dogs is wrong, they ought not be viewed as a commodity, because they quality of what is produced in that manner is poor. Go look at the sick/training threads for examples of what bad breeding practices result in. Dogs need to be nurtured in a household environment to become good household pets. Even healthy dogs, screened and vetted and fed and kept clean and not over bred that are raised in a mass production environment lack important behavior/socialization skills that are essential to a good dog. Brokers that perpetuate this situation are abhorrent. Backyard breeders are equally as bad when producing puppies without the knowledge of the genetic health background of the dogs bred, especially in a breed with as many potential problems as the yorks can carry without showing in the breeding pair. The ignorance is inexcusable. Anyone promoting the breeding of dogs without this essential background information is just doing a great disservice to the breed. Just because someone has two intact dogs with 'papers' (or without) does not mean they should have pups. Unfortunately they are told the dogs are 'cute' and healthy enough and it's their right to do what they want.
I don't think you can place a number on the amount of dogs a good breeder should have. It is a case by case situation regarding the amount of help each one has in caring for the animals and the space they have in the home. Common sense should rule here. It is obvious to me that I alone could not possibly love and care for 30 dogs properly by myself. There are just not enough hours in the day.
To address one other comment made...buying the mill pups to get them out of the situation only fosters the problem by providing continuing income to the producers. It is tragic to walk away from the sad pups, and I admire all the work done by Bichon rescue in buying auction dogs to rescue, but I don't know if that is a real solution. I believe the only hope for real change is education for the general public to eliminate the market for the mass produced dogs. It's a long shot, but worth trying for.

This brings up another good point that I have always thought about but you expressed it better than me.

There are a lot of members here who say they wouldn't buy from anything other than A ytca show breeder, but yet, in my opinion, the hobby breeders I have met and spoken to treat their dogs so much better than most, not all, show breeders who seem to view their dogs as "collectibles" rather than loveable creatures who just want to give unconditional love. Even the dogs being shown leave their home to live with handlers in crates in hotel rooms afraid to let them run around and play for fear of messing up their show coat.

The worst kennel I ever visited was that of a show breeder and she kept the males outside in a covered, partially enclosed patio area with lots of water, igloo dog houses and hammock beds. There was a misting system for hot days. Her breeding females were in a separate building that I never saw. Then she had her favorites which were "house dogs" inside with her and her family.,

There is a prejudice too where show breeders talk badly and refuse to associate with "pet breeders" and they want to have us believe that we should not buy from hobby breeders because they do not "follow the standard" or do not know the lineage of their dogs, or are doing it ourely for the money. I think we need to wake up and look at the real reason show breeders bash pet breeders. It is not complimentary for them in my opinion.

[Yorkie_Mama]

there are a few breeders who can run a kennel well with large numbers but to do so they have a Huge staff if you go to a kennel and there are dirty dogs dogs who have poor habbits usually found in not getting out of there kennels on a daily baises poor health. I breed two breeds One i show do agaility and fly ball with one i added on out of love and now am ready to start to show if you breed out of love and devotion of the breed you show rather obd,confermation,Therepy dog, even a CGC award for my toy aussies i do CERF and OFA testing wait three years to make shure there is no sesiure problems and work out of the home so i can be there for the breeding whelping and correct development of the puppies as for making money breeding dont make me laugh my vet just bought a new truck and his wife too and boy she has some bling bling.
I guess my point is the more dogs a breeder is the more i want proof that the dogs are not a pay check but a desire to improve the breed. even if the breeding stock is not a pet it deserves proper care and devotion

[red98vett]

good Post Yorkie Momma - I should re-word where Tessa my cocker came from - it WAS a kennel. A loud dirty scary kennel. If I knew then what I know now I probably wouldn't be hand feeding a 9 year old cocker with the worst underbite my vet ever saw. She's my sweetie though and I wouldn't trade her for the world...but she is a KENNEL cocker - and was bred for profit only.

I was just so happy to have my first puppy ever and wanted to wisk her away from the noise of that horror of 200 plus unhappy cockers in cages - I never realized I was in a small scale mill.

[SoCalyorkiLvr]

Originally Posted by Yorkie_Mama

there are a few breeders who can run a kennel well with large numbers but to do so they have a Huge staff if you go to a kennel and there are dirty dogs dogs who have poor habbits usually found in not getting out of there kennels on a daily baises poor health. I breed two breeds One i show do agaility and fly ball with one i added on out of love and now am ready to start to show if you breed out of love and devotion of the breed you show rather obd,confermation,Therepy dog, even a CGC award for my toy aussies i do CERF and OFA testing wait three years to make shure there is no sesiure problems and work out of the home so i can be there for the breeding whelping and correct development of the puppies as for making money breeding dont make me laugh my vet just bought a new truck and his wife too and boy she has some bling bling.
I guess my point is the more dogs a breeder is the more i want proof that the dogs are not a pay check but a desire to improve the breed. even if the breeding stock is not a pet it deserves proper care and devotion

You sound like my ideal of a great breeder. I purposely paid a LOT for all of my dogs as I want the breeders to provide the very best care for the puppies I buy, their mothers and their fathers and other litters. I want them to have the incentive to not work out of the home, to be there for the dogs and make it their living. To do this they must ask a lot for the dogs and I am more than okay with that because they are priceless to me and the upfront cost is a small amount of what I will spend on the animal throughout its life.I would never buy a $500 dog because I know there is no way they were properly cared for, or, if they were, it it just not fair to the breeder, imo.

[Kelz]

really i think the price of the dog..depends on the part of the country you live in or get it from... like in ok for example..the cost of living is so cheap.. and our vet bills probably arent the same as what they are in say...NY.. just b/c the cost of living is way higher!