Mill argument

[dianne]

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

Here's Hollybelle's website and look how long it took to shut her down!!

http://www.hollybellemaltese.com/index2.html

Joan thankyou so much for your quick reply,you are amazing.I was sure the dogs were coton de tulears ( sorry dont know how to spell it) But I must have got it wrong.What a terrible story what has happened to her I hope she gets her just desserts.How did Billy ray cyrus come to have his picture taken with her? dianne and prudence

[PCMom]

Thank you for posting Pepper's picture Villette and the nice things you said. I wish I had known about puppymills and that most, if not all, petstores get their puppies from them. I know that because I bought Pepper from the store his mother is doomed to hell in a cage producing litter after little of little ones like Pepper. I realize that I am not reasonable on this subject, not when I watch him day after day getting worse. It makes me sick. I was seriously asking for opinions on whether this breeder would be considered a puppymill...I can't be objective because of Pepper. Thank you for your kindness for all of you who said such sweet things about my little man!

[crystalsmom]

Don't know about Billy Ray cyrus but she had 4 x husbands and they think one of
them is in this with her and he is breeding somewhere else in Tennessee now. Did you
skroll down to see the ends and outs of jail. The dogs had absolutely no rights
One judge was going to sell the dogs in an auction until the Maltese breeders
and lovers moved in to help. It is so very sad. Where do you live?? Are they
doing a better job of dealing with this problem in your country??

[red98vett]

Originally Posted by PCMom

Thank you for posting Pepper's picture Villette and the nice things you said. I wish I had known about puppymills and that most, if not all, petstores get their puppies from them. I know that because I bought Pepper from the store his mother is doomed to hell in a cage producing litter after little of little ones like Pepper. I realize that I am not reasonable on this subject, not when I watch him day after day getting worse. It makes me sick. I was seriously asking for opinions on whether this breeder would be considered a puppymill...I can't be objective because of Pepper. Thank you for your kindness for all of you who said such sweet things about my little man!

Anytime Kathy - He's close to my heart and I know how much you love him...in turn - I do too.

- about where Pepper came from -To me Kathy ... THAT is a small scale mill. I know bad breeder comes to mind but people like that don't even deserve the term "Breeder" when we speak of them. When puppies are forced to live in cramped cages breeding over and over I don't even want to classify that as a breeder - they derserve a new name.

[dianne]

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

Don't know about Billy Ray cyrus but she had 4 x husbands and they think one of
them is in this with her and he is breeding somewhere else in Tennessee now. Did you
skroll down to see the ends and outs of jail. The dogs had absolutely no rights
One judge was going to sell the dogs in an auction until the Maltese breeders
and lovers moved in to help. It is so very sad. Where do you live?? Are they
doing a better job of dealing with this problem in your country??

Joan I live in New Zealand and I know our s.p.c.a is always trying to rehome animals but certainly not on the scale as you guys as of course we havent got the population that you guys have got but there is one case at the moment going on at the moment that i would call an outright puppymill and honest to god I was shocked to think it is happening in our country and how many more are there here.Another trend that worries is the amount of pet shops here now selling cross breed dogs and getting horrendous money for them.Ther seems to be a real trend for cross breeds.As much as I detest pet shops selling dogs most of them here are very good to their animals.Well the ones I see are.The trouble is the more dogs pet shops sell the more they will turn to puppy mills for supply.

[crystalsmom]

Originally Posted by dianne

Joan I live in New Zealand and I know our s.p.c.a is always trying to rehome animals but certainly not on the scale as you guys as of course we havent got the population that you guys have got but there is one case at the moment going on at the moment that i would call an outright puppymill and honest to god I was shocked to think it is happening in our country and how many more are there here.Another trend that worries is the amount of pet shops here now selling cross breed dogs and getting horrendous money for them.Ther seems to be a real trend for cross breeds.As much as I detest pet shops selling dogs most of them here are very good to their animals.Well the ones I see are.The trouble is the more dogs pet shops sell the more they will turn to puppy mills for supply.

So very true.

[whispersmom2]

"The other thing that causes me great concern is breeders who undertake to provide their own vet care without proper training. ie giving the dogs their shots, docking their tails, neutering their males. Taking the puppies to a licenced vet for these things provides more than just getting shots etc the vet has the opportunity to provide a complete health exam. I for one would never purchase a dog from a breeder who does their own vet care, no matter how many champion show dogs they had produced. "

I am including a quote.. If you have read any of YorkieRose's and my posts in the past, you will see that we do our own tails and initial vaccines and wormings. There are too many situations that you can expose a newborn puppy to in a vet hospital. The fewer times they are taken in to the vet where sick dogs are treated, the better we like it. An experienced breeder knows the actons of normal puppies and mommies and because we do, we can feel safe making our own judgements about when and why to make a vet visit..
I do not intend for this to sound mean but the reasons you have noted are the exact reasons a good breeder will find a mentor and work with her before the student even buys the stock to use for breeding.

[whispersmom2]

Maltese!! She asked $2000 and had no trouble getting it.

I was just gonna post the same thing..

[YorkieRose]

Alot of breeders post photo's on their web sites of celebrites they have sold pups to like Billy Rae Cyrus...I have heard HollyBelle is still breeding Maltese.
It is so easy to do...if I got suspended by AKC,etc, I could put all my dogs in a friends name and continue like nothing happened.

As to breeders doing their own tails and shots...I woudl perfer to buy from an experinced breeder who does these things..then I know they are done correctly. How many vets are still pumping our pups full of Lepto and docking tails so short they are tailess?
Just because we do shots etc does not eman they do not see the vet..all my babies see the vet twice before they are sold...8 wks and 12wks. or later if they are older.

[Kelz]

Originally Posted by crystalsmom

Here's Hollybelle's website and look how long it took to shut her down!!

http://www.hollybellemaltese.com/index2.html

Thanks for sharing that! i had never heard of that lady

[Flakes]

Originally Posted by whispersmom2

"The other thing that causes me great concern is breeders who undertake to provide their own vet care without proper training. ie giving the dogs their shots, docking their tails, neutering their males. Taking the puppies to a licenced vet for these things provides more than just getting shots etc the vet has the opportunity to provide a complete health exam. I for one would never purchase a dog from a breeder who does their own vet care, no matter how many champion show dogs they had produced. "

I am including a quote.. If you have read any of YorkieRose's and my posts in the past, you will see that we do our own tails and initial vaccines and wormings. There are too many situations that you can expose a newborn puppy to in a vet hospital. The fewer times they are taken in to the vet where sick dogs are treated, the better we like it. An experienced breeder knows the actons of normal puppies and mommies and because we do, we can feel safe making our own judgements about when and why to make a vet visit..
I do not intend for this to sound mean but the reasons you have noted are the exact reasons a good breeder will find a mentor and work with her before the student even buys the stock to use for breeding.

I am very aware that there are members who do their vet care. Your argument that you must save them from exposure to sick animals doesn't hold water as most animal clinics will make a visit to the breeder if requested. By and large breeders do their own vet care to save $$$$. It is against most state laws to practice animal medicine without a licence. A law which in my opinion should be vigorously enforced. I've seen the devastating results of botched procedures attempted by breeders who fancy themselves vets. It is never pleasant and it is almost always too late. You have to wonder why states, countries would bother with such laws if every tom, dick and harry who decides to become a breeder can practice animal medicine. I mean no disrespect, nor do I pressume that your pups are not healthy and well cared for but I would never consider buying one from you without seeing a certificate from a licenced vet indicating that he had performed the necessary health care. After all if for some reason I were to purchase an animal from a breeder such as yourself and that animal got sick from a bad vaccine I'd have absolutely no avenue to persue other than a personal lawsuit. If on the other hand that animal had received the vaccine from a licenced vet not only would that vet have insurance but I could take action through agencies that govern vets. I realize of course this is something most people don't think of.

[kewtee]

I am sorry I am too tired to read the whole thread, it is 7am here and I've been up since 4.30am.
But I can say this - my breeder has a big farm with about 50 dogs in all, diffrent terrier breeds - and she and her husband are devoting all their time to the dogs. They have nice outdoor running yards, great clean and comfy indoor facilities and a special stable for puppies and their moms.
It IS big - but these people are with all their dogs during the day.

You just need to look at their dogs to see that they are fine

So - the number of dogs does not define a puppy mill

I look forward to reading the rest of the thread when I have had some sleep

[Francie]

Originally Posted by SoCalyorkiLvr

I was primarily referring to my area...California... when I made the $500 comment, but my basic point is, I think people should be more willing to pay a "fair" price for a dog instead of trying to get one cheaply and basically cheating the breeder of being fairly compensated for the 24/7 care they have had to provide the puppies and the mother. They need to expect to pay at least the cost of the puppies care to that point so the breeder at least doesn't lose money.

I think if people were more willing to pay the fair price, there would be more breeders providing the very best care that these dogs deserve. No one wants a puppy who hasn't had the very best care and whose litter mates and mother are not well provided for. We want our puppies and their families to have the best possible start in life. But, if you are looking for a yorkie for less than $500 you are looking for someone who hasn't put that much intothe dog or you expect the breeder to lose money on the dog and, imo, that is not fair.

I have talked to a lot of breeders and even did a poll on here and discovered that it costs at least that much and usually way more to raise a puppy to 12 weeks of age in a healthy, well cared for way.

Interesting thread....but since when has "price" ever been the definitive proof of quality in any commodity in this country? I think GENETICS play a much bigger role in the health of any Yorkshire Terrier...and you can "feed them the best food"...blood panel the grandparents, parents, siblings and pup until you're blue in the face...but if that pup is not genetically sound....it will not matter WHAT "best of care" you provide.

As I write this....my sister in law's 2 year old " yorkshire terrier is once again fighting for his life. This poor dog has severe metabolic problems, from bloating....bloody stools....etc (which none of the vets she has taken him to can figure out why, only to tell her it is something he was born with.). She loves him to death...and would do anything for him...but she has spent nearly three times his initial cost on his health care. And let me tell you...she paid in the thousands for him (from a "professional breeder" no less). And the clincher? Her sister paid $700 bucks for her yorkshire terrier which has never been sick in his life...and is closer to the standard for a Yorkshire!

As far as I'm concerned...you can wash, buff, paint and glue a Jaguar on the hood....but sometimes...it is what it is....a PINTO!


Francie

[Francie]

Originally Posted by red98vett

Thank you Kimberly...This is a better pic of pcmom's Pepper... I'm just so sad for the heartache to come....Kathy - hope the pictures are ok - This is Peppers Happy Face ....you'd never know how ill he is....sweet angel

After hearing Kathy & Peppers story - I hope people will realize the dangers of Pet Stores and bad breeders/brokers -

What a beautiful face....! So sad.....


Francie

[wendybee]

ok i dont dress rosie up but i love to see all those babys that are dressed up i think they look so cute, she does wear coats and joy is doing me a couple of harnesses, but beleive me shes my baby and and god i love her like one of my children,i DO NOT see her as just a DOG and never will, and its quite sad that you dont get the same pleasure as we do YOU ARE MISSING OUT.
puppy mills in (england there called puppy farms) there only called that when they are mistreated and abused dogs otherwise there called breeders so to me its easy to see the difference, also if you have been to one you would be able to tell a bad one a mile away with the smell and the state of the dogs. anyway thats my opinion and not ment to be nasty in anyway



wendy and rosie