designer pups...???

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by cesar49

purebreed show dogs are a different level of breeders
the show breeders obviously have the money to invest up front..

i agree with little paws

The plan for many is to breed healthy happy well socialized babies. The goal for any breeder is to find their own long term goal. Pure bred dogs are a mythical figure of perfection and each breeder strives to achieve that goal.

It is important in a cross breed: To use the best parents just as you would for a pure bred. You don't do any less just because they are a cross. I think that is the danger. Low quality dogs making low quality puppies. Mine come from 2 AKC parents. It took me 6 months to choose my female Shih-tzu. It took me a year to find the right stud. I am very happy with the resulting puppies.
Today 12:47 PM


time and money and patience and a good reputation for loving and caring for your puppies.

a backyard breeder keeps dogs outside in the backyard..
inside the home is the only place to keep these small companions..
breeding is a lot more work and heartwrenching than most people realize.
but, when successful, it is very rewarding..

If purebred dogs are a "mythical figure of perfection" then why did you use 2 AKC registered dogs? There must have been something about an AKC registered dog that made you choose them over non registered dogs of those breeds that you chose. Just wondering?

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by wildcard

I am a new breeder of papillons (who happens to have a yorkie living with me now LOL) and am happy to share how I got involved in breeding and what the costs have been.

I began with a 2.5 year old neutered male that I purchased from a very good breeder who was not his breeder but who had bought him as a show prospect that did not turn out (he had a total of 2 points when she gave up). He came to me as an obedience prospect and he did quite well in that and in agility. When I decided I was ready for a puppy, I returned to this breeder, having gotten to know her via sharing with her his progress and success. She said she had a nice male puppy that would be a terrific performance dog but that she felt he was also of a nice enough quality to finish his breed CH. I met him, and basically had to decide whether or not I wanted him enough to show him in the breed ring. I did, and so I broadened my hobby to include showing in conformation. He was a bargain at $1000.00 but the breeder maintained breeding rights. He is now 8 and has earned his CH (breed champion), MACH (master agility champion), UD (utility dog in obedience), and is halfway to his RAE (highest rally title). Along the way I spent lots and lots and lots of money on his care, training and showing. He maybe won a few sweeps placements and some money in obedience but I would guess it totaled less than $250 throughout his career. I also developed a terrific friendship with his breeder, mets lots of other papillon breeders, got to be a decent handler, and the conformation bug bit me.

In the midst of his career I decided I wanted another puppy to start, so along came a third papillon, again, a show and performance quality puppy. He now has his CH, agility titles of AX and AXJ, and a CD. He is still training and showing in obedience and agility. Again, lots and lots and lots of money spent on training, showing, and just regular care, and again probably less than $75 in "prize money" LOL. He has never been bred. I think I paid $1500 for him, again, not very much money for a show quality puppy but at this point the breeder knew I would be doing things with him that he would not get to do in a normal show home.

I then purchased a lovely bitch from Sweden. She was expensive, with the exhcange rate I believe we paid $4000 for her. She was 9 points and 1 major into her championship when I decided to breed her. One emergency C section and one dead puppy later (no living ones), we have that cost as well as regular care, training and showing expenses. She is returning to the breed ring this summer and I hope to finish her this year.

I was then given a show quality male. He is 2 and has 6 pts and both majors. He is starting his training for obedience and agility. He is my "cheapest" dog thus far (being free LOL) and I have not shown him much so his showing expenses are minimal.

Then there is a puppy I kept from our first litter. Again other than the costs of breeding the litter, she was "free" but she shows in agility and the breed ring, and so she has regular care, showing and training expenses. She will not be used as a brood bitch due to her narrow pelvic span. We have another girl we kept from our second litter. Not sure yet whether she will be shown, bred, or even spayed and placed in a home instead, she is maturing very slowly.

We also have another bitch we showed for our breeder and who lives with us although we do not own her. We have her showing, care and training expenses as well. She has produced two litters.

Now, I have these dogs as both my pets and companions, so I don't think of their regular vetting or feeding, etc as part of the expense of a breeding program. However, I do attribute the show expenses to be a part of the costs of the program. This past weekend, for instance, we drove 400 miles to a show in our motorhome. It cost $500 in gas. Parking was "free" other than the gas to run the generator. My entries were I believe $27 per dog per day. I showed 2 of my own dogs both days so that is a little over $100 in entries. I don't count food as an expense because I would have eaten anyway. We also showed 3 dogs belonging to others. The only thing that we "won" this weekend was we finished a CH on a girl that is not ours. So basically $600 spent for no points towards my own dogs' championships. There are weekends like that all the time, no one always wins! We travel like that at least 1-2 times a month and also try to get to shows a little closer so that we are usually gone 2-3 and sometimes 4 weekends a month. Since I also do obedience and agility we have those weekends away incorporated into that as well but I try to hit breed shows that have those other events at the same site and same weekend if I can. I would not hesitate to say that showing the dogs costs us on average $1000 to $1200 a month and that is gas and entry fees only. That is this year, in previous years I did not get to as many shows so I would say it was closer to $750 a month.

As for the breeding, thus far we have had 5 breedings and 4 litters, and not until I had spent many in the breed showing the dogs (I showed other breeds in obedience before that). The first was a co-breeding so I only owned half the litter of 3, I kept one puppy, so my income was $600 I believe. The costs of that litter included 2 whelping pens (one for the house, one for the motorhome, and regular vet expenses, I think I did an ultrasound) as well as lots of $$ spent on whelping pads, etc. After that I attended a whelping seminar (travel and seminar expenses plus the whelping kit we bought, plus things like an oxygen tank we bought after that). So before breeding our second litter I probably had another $800 in whelping supplies and education spent. The second litter had 2 puppies, one we kept, the other was sold, but minus vet expenses and other supplies for the whelping including a new heated whelping nest I would guess our income from that litter was about $500. The third litter was an emergency section at a cost of $950. No income from that as the single puppy died. The 4th litter is a litter of 3, another co-breeding. We own 2/3 of the puppies as we paid the stud fee. We are keeping both as show prospects and the third goes back to the breeder for the lease of the bitch so the income is nothing, also minus another emergency section at $950 (yes, different bitch than the first one). Also prior to the 4th litter we bought a new whelping box for $250.00. The 5th litter is a week old now, there are 6 puppies in the litter, it is a co-breeding so 3 are mine to keep or place, I will keep one for sure. Vet expenses aside (including progesterone testing and x rays) I am guessing my income from this litter will be around $1500.

Let's total the income: about $325 in "prize money" LOL and around $2600 in income from selling puppies. So rounding up, a whopping $3000.00. That would MAYBE pay for 3 months of dog showing if we did not venture out too far. But even aside from the costs of showing, I am sure I have spent at least $1500 in whelping pens, nests, and boxes, plus assorted pads and fleeces etc, we had a stud fee of $1500 (We have used one of my boys for 2 litters and our breeder gratiously allowed the use of her stud dog for two of the others), and 2 emergency sections at $950 each. Include progesterone testing, ultrasounds (I don't do these anymore) and x rays and we have about $400 per litter in just those costs. Oh, and I have totally forgetten the bre-breeding vet vists and the Heart and Eye clinics for my breeding dogs.

In no way shape or form am I making any money on breeding my dogs!

I guess instead I could so some cross-breeding or just start randomly breeding the dogs I have just to have puppies to sell. I could quit showing and I have all the big whelping supplies so my costs at this point would be minimal. Maybe that is the mindset one takes when creating cross breeds but I just cannot fathom it, I guess because from my standpoint, what I am doing is only part of a bigger picture of how the breedings I do effect the breed as a whole. Every time you breed dogs there is an effect on their anscestors and descendants. There is an overall impact that results from creating these new lives. To purposefully breed cross breeds (or to carelessly breed purebreds) minimalizes the what breeding dogs can be about. Maybe I have been too involved in the world of showing dogs for too long (I don't think 15 years is very long though) but I just don't understand the mindset of breeding dogs for profit. Maybe I just plain take it all too seriously...

Thanks for sharing that lovely story!!!

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by yorkiekist

If purebred dogs are a "mythical figure of perfection" then why did you use 2 AKC registered dogs? There must have been something about an AKC registered dog that made you choose them over non registered dogs of those breeds that you chose. Just wondering?

breed standards are necessary for good breeding
unregistered dogs have no family histories

[yorkieisme]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

LOL...you lost me on that one. The goal of cross breeding is to produce dogs that live longer? How exactly is cross breeding going to achieve that? Is there any undisputable proof that selectively cross bred dogs have less health problems? Because at this point I think that can only be considered a nice theory/excuse...

Hey I only repeated the study that I recently came across.......honest I have no clue about cross breeding anything. Heck I have 3 kids, and sometimes I wonder about my breeding practices.

[bchgirl]

Originally Posted by yorkieisme

Hey I only repeated the study that I recently came across.......honest I have no clue about cross breeding anything. Heck I have 3 kids, and sometimes I wonder about my breeding practices.

Are they within standard???

[YorkichonBella]

Originally Posted by MeganS

I'm not a breeder, but this is what I'm thinking some mix-breeders are going for.

Maybe they just want to provide people with healthy, happy little dogs. Maybe there is no long term goal as far as making a new breed or whatever - maybe they just want people to have the chance to own such sweet, loveable dogs.

Maybe this is just me being ignorant or something. But I don't understand how the overpopulation of shelters is a reason for cross breeds to not be bred. You will have just as much trouble finding a morkie in a shelter as you would a yorkie - popular breeds do not end up in shelters as much. Instead of getting your next yorkie, why don't you go to a shelter and adopt some mutt? Oh, because you want a yorkie. Why is that only an acceptable answer when it's a purebred?

Megan, I haven't been on YT but a short while, but I was amazed to find out that you were a very young girl who happens to sound so very mature in all yr posts. Again, you have impressed with me, with your thoughts on this issue. You've made more sense than any of us & worded it just so. I'm thinking in yr stmt, questioniong yr ignorance, that you had to be sarcastically joking, because you are a very intelligent young lady. Thank you for yr thoughts on this subject, "my thoughts exactly". You just worded it so well!

[YorkichonBella]

I thought this article is interesting...
Dog hybrid
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A dog hybrid is the offspring of parents of two different purebred dog breeds, more commonly called a crossbreed or crossbred in animal breeding. Crossbreeding (parents of two different purebred breeds) results in offspring that may be stronger and healthier than either parent, an effect called hybrid vigour, but only if both parents are genetically sound. Many dog crossbreds (hybrids) have been given fanciful or portmanteau names, as in Labradoodle (purebred Labrador Retriever crossed with purebred Poodle.) Further generations of crossbreds bred to crossbreds lose the advantage of hybrid vigour, although they may still be called by the hybrid name, and may eventually be recognized as a separate purebred dog breed.

A dog of unknown or complex heritage is called a mixed breed dog; not the same as a crossbred (hybrid) dog, which has known parents of two different purebred breeds.

Some dog hybrids are now being selectively bred. The term designer dogs is often used to refer to these mixes and crosses. The practice causes much controversy; opponents cite the often exorbitant prices charged for what may just be a mutt.

Designer Dogs
While the trend to produce hybrid or designer dogs is considered new it is, in fact, a continuation of the centuries-old practice of selective breeding. Basically every breed of dog is a "mutt" in the sense that every type of dog was created by interbreeding different types of dogs to produce a breed with a certain set of desirable characteristics. All dog breeds were bred for a particular purpose, usually some form of hunting, herding, or guarding. These tasks have been largely replaced by the need to produce healthy dogs with good temperaments as domestic companions or pets. Breeding two different breeds often allows the best traits of both parents to pass through.

This has resulted in a surge of popularity for certain crosses in which a desirable mix of traits occurs. The Labradoodle, for example, was first bred as an attempt to develop guide dog for visually impaired people with allergies. Unfortunately, the popularity of hybrids such as "Labradoodles" has resulted in rampant, and often unscrupulous, breeding. The resulting pups do not reliably demonstrate the desirable characteristics, such as a hypo-allergenic coat, that the original breeders were attempting to standardize.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by MeganS

I'm not a breeder, but this is what I'm thinking some mix-breeders are going for.

Maybe they just want to provide people with healthy, happy little dogs. Maybe there is no long term goal as far as making a new breed or whatever - maybe they just want people to have the chance to own such sweet, loveable dogs.

Maybe this is just me being ignorant or something. But I don't understand how the overpopulation of shelters is a reason for cross breeds to not be bred. You will have just as much trouble finding a morkie in a shelter as you would a yorkie - popular breeds do not end up in shelters as much. Instead of getting your next yorkie, why don't you go to a shelter and adopt some mutt? Oh, because you want a yorkie. Why is that only an acceptable answer when it's a purebred?

It's hard to understand why this has an impact, but it does. When you crossbred you cannot predict the looks or personalities of the offspring. Morkiepoos don't all look alike; in fact, it's hard to find two adults that resemble each other. It may be wrong, but many people want a pet that they think is pleasant to look at. In my opinion, only the best dogs should be bred, the best examples of the breed and the healthiest, that is the only way to ensure that all dogs will find a good home. Would it be so bad if people had to wait a bit in order to get a pet? What can we do so that millions of dogs won't be put to death in shelters? The majority of dogs dying in shelters are mixed breeds. I think only breeding dogs that are sure to be "saleable" will help this. I also encourage everyone who wants to buy a purebred puppy to only buy from those breeders who have a policy in place where they will take back the dog, at any time, and find it a good home. Most good breeders do this, and the Humane Society says that they never receive dogs from good breeders. Another thing good breeders do is try to place the dog in the proper home in the first place. People who are breeding for money aren't going to do this.

[YorkichonBella]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

It's hard to understand why this has an impact, but it does. When you crossbred you cannot predict the looks or personalities of the offspring. Morkiepoos don't all look alike; in fact, it's hard to find two adults that resemble each other. It may be wrong, but many people want a pet that they think is pleasant to look at. In my opinion, only the best dogs should be bred, the best examples of the breed and the healthiest, that is the only way to ensure that all dogs will find a good home. Would it be so bad if people had to wait a bit in order to get a pet? What can we do so that millions of dogs won't be put to death in shelters? The majority of dogs dying in shelters are mixed breeds. I think only breeding dogs that are sure to be "saleable" will help this. I also encourage everyone who wants to buy a purebred puppy to only buy from those breeders who have a policy in place where they will take back the dog, at any time, and find it a good home. Most good breeders do this, and the Humane Society says that they never receive dogs from good breeders. Another thing good breeders do is try to place the dog in the proper home in the first place. People who are breeding for money aren't going to do this.

Ok, that's one way to look at it to try to solve the problems of so many dogs needing homes. By blaming it on those who want a dog from 2 different breeds of purebred parents, but really it goes much further.(IMO) If we all did this, yes maybe it would solve things. Is it fair? Is it also right that over the years, the prices of purebred yorkies has skyrocketed? Not everyone can afford this, so where do they stand? Only the wealthy being able to own a dog? It seems to me that stronger laws need to be in place for breeders to ensure that overpopulation needs to stop & to ensure the health of these dogs. Not everyone is interested in showing, breeding, competition, status, etc. Not to say that's wrong, but fairness to all.

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by cesar49

breed standards are necessary for good breeding
unregistered dogs have no family histories

Depends on what you mean by "standard"--meets the standard set for the breed, or 'healthy.' I have to ask, what role would a dog meeting 'standard' matter if it's resulting offspring are going to be something for which there is NO standard. I.e...would it really matter if you have a Yorkie that meets the standard as far as weight or coloring or structure if you are going to completely change it by breeding it to another breed?

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by YorkichonBella

Ok, that's one way to look at it to try to solve the problems of so many dogs needing homes. By blaming it on those who want a dog from 2 different breeds of purebred parents, but really it goes much further.(IMO) If we all did this, yes maybe it would solve things. Is it fair? Is it also right that over the years, the prices of purebred yorkies has skyrocketed? Not everyone can afford this, so where do they stand? Only the wealthy being able to own a dog? It seems to me that stronger laws need to be in place for breeders to ensure that overpopulation needs to stop & to ensure the health of these dogs. Not everyone is interested in showing, breeding, competition, status, etc. Not to say that's wrong, but fairness to all.

What's really has skyrocketed is the price of designer dogs, not purebreds, another thing that has skyrocketed is the cost of vet care, maybe if you can't afford to buy from a good breeder, you should wait awhile, because vet care can end up costing way more than the dog itself. I believe that the ones we need to be fair to - is the dogs.

[wildcard]

Anyone who can afford to care for a dog can afford a pet from a show breeder. It is a matter of saving your money and purchasing it with that savings. This is how I bought my dogs before I had the disposable income I have now. I put back $100 a month and when I had the purchase price I asked to be put on a puppy list. No immediate gratification but I got wonderful pets. I don't buy the "x" breed is only for rich people. Everyone can save their money, give up meals out, stop smoking, whatever it takes. If you can't do that how will youi afford vet and other expenses after you have the dog?

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by YorkichonBella

Is it also right that over the years, the prices of purebred yorkies has skyrocketed? Not everyone can afford this, so where do they stand? Only the wealthy being able to own a dog?

That argument can play both ways though. The price of non-purebred dogs has skyrocketed too with the labeling of mixed breeds as "designer dogs." Is every crossbred dog expensive? No, I'm sure they are not. Only those from breeders looking to capitalize off of the trend. Are all Yorkies expensive? No, only those from breeders looking to capitalize off the trend. Of course, the price will be more for BOTH if the breeder is trying to cover cost incurred with breeding.

I do agree with there needing to be more emphasis on the health of dogs being produced by breeders...but who would be the qualified, unbiased group that should decide that? There isn't one. The best option is to steer clear of those breeders who are unethical.

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by wildcard

Anyone who can afford to care for a dog can afford a pet from a show breeder. It is a matter of saving your money and purchasing it with that savings. This is how I bought my dogs before I had the disposable income I have now. I put back $100 a month and when I had the purchase price I asked to be put on a puppy list. No immediate gratification but I got wonderful pets. I don't buy the "x" breed is only for rich people. Everyone can save their money, give up meals out, stop smoking, whatever it takes. If you can't do that how will youi afford vet and other expenses after you have the dog?

[YorkichonBella]

Originally Posted by Nancy1999

What's really has skyrocketed is the price of designer dogs, not purebreds, another thing that has skyrocketed is the cost of vet care, maybe if you can't afford to buy from a good breeder, you should wait awhile, because vet care can end up costing way more than the dog itself. I believe that the ones we need to be fair to - is the dogs.

JMO...that's not exactly fair...let's say prices have skyrocketed then in Both! Purebred Yorkies being much more expensive & rightly so. So if you do away with the designer dogs (as some like to call them)....does that solve the problem, I don't think so. Vet care as definitely skyrocketed! I think that also has gotten out of hand. It's not that those with pets do not want to give their dogs the best possible care. My Gosh, there are those (humans)without medical insurance right now!!