designer pups...???

[yorkieisme]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

I guess one of my biggest questions is...what is the "goal" of cross breeding? What are those doing it trying to achieve? Is there a long term goal, or just the immediate desire to produce a cute litter of puppies?

Longevity : 'long life', especially when it concerns someone or something lasting longer than expected.
Also less health problems

I'm not saying I agree with this...but its something that has been debated and it seems by UK study it might be true.

[wildcard]

I am a new breeder of papillons (who happens to have a yorkie living with me now LOL) and am happy to share how I got involved in breeding and what the costs have been.

I began with a 2.5 year old neutered male that I purchased from a very good breeder who was not his breeder but who had bought him as a show prospect that did not turn out (he had a total of 2 points when she gave up). He came to me as an obedience prospect and he did quite well in that and in agility. When I decided I was ready for a puppy, I returned to this breeder, having gotten to know her via sharing with her his progress and success. She said she had a nice male puppy that would be a terrific performance dog but that she felt he was also of a nice enough quality to finish his breed CH. I met him, and basically had to decide whether or not I wanted him enough to show him in the breed ring. I did, and so I broadened my hobby to include showing in conformation. He was a bargain at $1000.00 but the breeder maintained breeding rights. He is now 8 and has earned his CH (breed champion), MACH (master agility champion), UD (utility dog in obedience), and is halfway to his RAE (highest rally title). Along the way I spent lots and lots and lots of money on his care, training and showing. He maybe won a few sweeps placements and some money in obedience but I would guess it totaled less than $250 throughout his career. I also developed a terrific friendship with his breeder, mets lots of other papillon breeders, got to be a decent handler, and the conformation bug bit me.

In the midst of his career I decided I wanted another puppy to start, so along came a third papillon, again, a show and performance quality puppy. He now has his CH, agility titles of AX and AXJ, and a CD. He is still training and showing in obedience and agility. Again, lots and lots and lots of money spent on training, showing, and just regular care, and again probably less than $75 in "prize money" LOL. He has never been bred. I think I paid $1500 for him, again, not very much money for a show quality puppy but at this point the breeder knew I would be doing things with him that he would not get to do in a normal show home.

I then purchased a lovely bitch from Sweden. She was expensive, with the exhcange rate I believe we paid $4000 for her. She was 9 points and 1 major into her championship when I decided to breed her. One emergency C section and one dead puppy later (no living ones), we have that cost as well as regular care, training and showing expenses. She is returning to the breed ring this summer and I hope to finish her this year.

I was then given a show quality male. He is 2 and has 6 pts and both majors. He is starting his training for obedience and agility. He is my "cheapest" dog thus far (being free LOL) and I have not shown him much so his showing expenses are minimal.

Then there is a puppy I kept from our first litter. Again other than the costs of breeding the litter, she was "free" but she shows in agility and the breed ring, and so she has regular care, showing and training expenses. She will not be used as a brood bitch due to her narrow pelvic span. We have another girl we kept from our second litter. Not sure yet whether she will be shown, bred, or even spayed and placed in a home instead, she is maturing very slowly.

We also have another bitch we showed for our breeder and who lives with us although we do not own her. We have her showing, care and training expenses as well. She has produced two litters.

Now, I have these dogs as both my pets and companions, so I don't think of their regular vetting or feeding, etc as part of the expense of a breeding program. However, I do attribute the show expenses to be a part of the costs of the program. This past weekend, for instance, we drove 400 miles to a show in our motorhome. It cost $500 in gas. Parking was "free" other than the gas to run the generator. My entries were I believe $27 per dog per day. I showed 2 of my own dogs both days so that is a little over $100 in entries. I don't count food as an expense because I would have eaten anyway. We also showed 3 dogs belonging to others. The only thing that we "won" this weekend was we finished a CH on a girl that is not ours. So basically $600 spent for no points towards my own dogs' championships. There are weekends like that all the time, no one always wins! We travel like that at least 1-2 times a month and also try to get to shows a little closer so that we are usually gone 2-3 and sometimes 4 weekends a month. Since I also do obedience and agility we have those weekends away incorporated into that as well but I try to hit breed shows that have those other events at the same site and same weekend if I can. I would not hesitate to say that showing the dogs costs us on average $1000 to $1200 a month and that is gas and entry fees only. That is this year, in previous years I did not get to as many shows so I would say it was closer to $750 a month.

As for the breeding, thus far we have had 5 breedings and 4 litters, and not until I had spent many in the breed showing the dogs (I showed other breeds in obedience before that). The first was a co-breeding so I only owned half the litter of 3, I kept one puppy, so my income was $600 I believe. The costs of that litter included 2 whelping pens (one for the house, one for the motorhome, and regular vet expenses, I think I did an ultrasound) as well as lots of $$ spent on whelping pads, etc. After that I attended a whelping seminar (travel and seminar expenses plus the whelping kit we bought, plus things like an oxygen tank we bought after that). So before breeding our second litter I probably had another $800 in whelping supplies and education spent. The second litter had 2 puppies, one we kept, the other was sold, but minus vet expenses and other supplies for the whelping including a new heated whelping nest I would guess our income from that litter was about $500. The third litter was an emergency section at a cost of $950. No income from that as the single puppy died. The 4th litter is a litter of 3, another co-breeding. We own 2/3 of the puppies as we paid the stud fee. We are keeping both as show prospects and the third goes back to the breeder for the lease of the bitch so the income is nothing, also minus another emergency section at $950 (yes, different bitch than the first one). Also prior to the 4th litter we bought a new whelping box for $250.00. The 5th litter is a week old now, there are 6 puppies in the litter, it is a co-breeding so 3 are mine to keep or place, I will keep one for sure. Vet expenses aside (including progesterone testing and x rays) I am guessing my income from this litter will be around $1500.

Let's total the income: about $325 in "prize money" LOL and around $2600 in income from selling puppies. So rounding up, a whopping $3000.00. That would MAYBE pay for 3 months of dog showing if we did not venture out too far. But even aside from the costs of showing, I am sure I have spent at least $1500 in whelping pens, nests, and boxes, plus assorted pads and fleeces etc, we had a stud fee of $1500 (We have used one of my boys for 2 litters and our breeder gratiously allowed the use of her stud dog for two of the others), and 2 emergency sections at $950 each. Include progesterone testing, ultrasounds (I don't do these anymore) and x rays and we have about $400 per litter in just those costs. Oh, and I have totally forgetten the bre-breeding vet vists and the Heart and Eye clinics for my breeding dogs.

In no way shape or form am I making any money on breeding my dogs!

I guess instead I could so some cross-breeding or just start randomly breeding the dogs I have just to have puppies to sell. I could quit showing and I have all the big whelping supplies so my costs at this point would be minimal. Maybe that is the mindset one takes when creating cross breeds but I just cannot fathom it, I guess because from my standpoint, what I am doing is only part of a bigger picture of how the breedings I do effect the breed as a whole. Every time you breed dogs there is an effect on their anscestors and descendants. There is an overall impact that results from creating these new lives. To purposefully breed cross breeds (or to carelessly breed purebreds) minimalizes the what breeding dogs can be about. Maybe I have been too involved in the world of showing dogs for too long (I don't think 15 years is very long though) but I just don't understand the mindset of breeding dogs for profit. Maybe I just plain take it all too seriously...

[BamaFan121s]

Originally Posted by yorkieisme

Longevity : 'long life', especially when it concerns someone or something lasting longer than expected.
Also less health problems

I'm not saying I agree with this...but its something that has been debated and it seems by UK study it might be true.

LOL...you lost me on that one. The goal of cross breeding is to produce dogs that live longer? How exactly is cross breeding going to achieve that? Is there any undisputable proof that selectively cross bred dogs have less health problems? Because at this point I think that can only be considered a nice theory/excuse...

[BamaFan121s]

wildcard--Where in that breakdown is the expense for "Bonus to self for keeping sanity?"

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by MeganS

I'm not a breeder, but this is what I'm thinking some mix-breeders are going for.

Maybe they just want to provide people with healthy, happy little dogs. Maybe there is no long term goal as far as making a new breed or whatever - maybe they just want people to have the chance to own such sweet, loveable dogs.

Maybe this is just me being ignorant or something. But I don't understand how the overpopulation of shelters is a reason for cross breeds to not be bred. You will have just as much trouble finding a morkie in a shelter as you would a yorkie - popular breeds do not end up in shelters as much. Instead of getting your next yorkie, why don't you go to a shelter and adopt some mutt? Oh, because you want a yorkie. Why is that only an acceptable answer when it's a purebred?

A reason why pure breds aren't found at shelters is because there are places that rescue specific breeds like United Yorkie Rescue, as well as local breed specific rescues that also take in breed mixes, like morkies. They take in specific breeds and place them in foster homes which keeps them out of shelters. Every once in a while they're still found in shelters but if adoption is something that would work for you then that's a great place to look I think.
And no, I'm not trying to make breeders seem less, I think breeders with the right intentions are great! As long as they stay away from "designer" labels and trying to sell their puppies by saying such and such celebrity just picked up one of our puppies, I see no problem with people breeding within reason.

[Brodysmom]

very well said.

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I sse nothing wrong with them. People like them so what is the harm. And if they end up with a new breed, what is the harm in that. The only true pure bred dog is the wolf anyway.

Are little yorkies are a mix of several breeds. So without those people way back when, mixing breeds, we woould not have our beautiful babies that we so love.

[DvlshAngel985]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

A reason why pure breds aren't found at shelters is because there are places that rescue specific breeds like United Yorkie Rescue, as well as local breed specific rescues that also take in breed mixes, like morkies. They take in specific breeds and place them in foster homes which keeps them out of shelters. Every once in a while they're still found in shelters but if adoption is something that would work for you then that's a great place to look I think.
And no, I'm not trying to make breeders seem less, I think breeders with the right intentions are great! As long as they stay away from "designer" labels and trying to sell their puppies by saying such and such celebrity just picked up one of our puppies, I see no problem with people breeding within reason.

Thanks Wildcard for your "long post" it was very informative. I had no idea of the costs in show quality dogs. I appreciate you sharing your experience and it shows that you are dedicated to bettering the breed.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

wildcard--Where in that breakdown is the expense for "Bonus to self for keeping sanity?"

Actually sometimes I think they keep me sane LOL. It is my real job that makes me crazy!

[DvlshAngel985]

Oh shoot, I didn't mean to reply to my own post, I feel dumb....

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by BamaFan121s

wildcard--Where in that breakdown is the expense for "Bonus to self for keeping sanity?"

Actually sometimes I think they keep me sane LOL. It is my real job that makes me crazy!

[Nancy1999]

Originally Posted by DvlshAngel985

Oh shoot, I didn't mean to reply to my own post, I feel dumb....

Lol, as long as you don't start arguing with yourself, your fine.

[cesar49]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Has this turned into an interview for Lynn? It's starting to sound like an attack to me. Let's keep the focus where we started, on the term designer dogs.
By the way, the dictionary defines Reputable as one who has a good reputation. I would say that you get a good reputation from treating people fairly and honestly, by doing what you say you will do, and by treating the animals in your care in a humane and caring way. I would also define a BYB as someone who just sticks two pets together to make puppies to fulfill their own desires without the benefit or desire for education.

[cesar49]

purebreed show dogs are a different level of breeders
the show breeders obviously have the money to invest up front..

i agree with little paws

The plan for many is to breed healthy happy well socialized babies. The goal for any breeder is to find their own long term goal. Pure bred dogs are a mythical figure of perfection and each breeder strives to achieve that goal.

It is important in a cross breed: To use the best parents just as you would for a pure bred. You don't do any less just because they are a cross. I think that is the danger. Low quality dogs making low quality puppies. Mine come from 2 AKC parents. It took me 6 months to choose my female Shih-tzu. It took me a year to find the right stud. I am very happy with the resulting puppies.
Today 12:47 PM


time and money and patience and a good reputation for loving and caring for your puppies.

a backyard breeder keeps dogs outside in the backyard..
inside the home is the only place to keep these small companions..
breeding is a lot more work and heartwrenching than most people realize.
but, when successful, it is very rewarding..

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by durtymydawg

1. Are you considered a REPUTABLE BREEDER? What makes a person reputable? Is it how many dogs you produce or just the fact that you have quality lines and pups?
2. Are your dogs kenneled or indoors and If indoors does that mean your a BYB?
3. How many dogs do you have...ie..bitches vs. studs? What size is your breeding operation?
4. How many litters a year do you produce and what on average is total # of pups a year?
5. What do you sell your pups for?
6. Yes, lets start from ground level....scratch! Lets say I wanted to be a breeder, what do you think I need and what expenses are involved...??

I think in general this is what the few/majority of posters are wondering, that is if they don't raise pups. I personally am not a big time breeder, so I would be catagorized with the BYB's....which sounds like I'm a terrible person with poor quality animals...well that isn't true but anyhow...to each there own!!! I think you can get awesome bloodlines and great quality pups from someone who is running a very small breeding program...such as a BYB. JMO...Please share with us your thoughts on costs, there is so many wanting to know.

Sorry, but I am feeling a little bit attacked by your questioning. And just because you are not a "big time" breeder, doesnt necessarily make you a bybr, you may be a hobby breeder if breeding practices are done correctly.

[yorkiekist]

Originally Posted by Ladyhawk

Has this turned into an interview for Lynn? It's starting to sound like an attack to me. Let's keep the focus where we started, on the term designer dogs.
By the way, the dictionary defines Reputable as one who has a good reputation. I would say that you get a good reputation from treating people fairly and honestly, by doing what you say you will do, and by treating the animals in your care in a humane and caring way. I would also define a BYB as someone who just sticks two pets together to make puppies to fulfill their own desires without the benefit or desire for education.

Thank you!!!!!!!!! I also agree with what you said too!!