What training style do you practice?

[peanut]

Originally Posted by MyTrixie143

You took the words right out of my mouth!!! Excellent post, I agree with you 100 percent.

When I taught dog classes, I always used positive reinforcement, not that crap that Cesear uses. His method simply does not work and cruel in my opinion. I even had some people come in for classes after they tried Cesear's way, which only made the dog worse by using Ceaser's methods. So yes it has been proven, and I have seen it first hand, that Cesear's methods do not work and only leads to more problems!!! It has made many dogs fearful and agressive.
The worst thing is putting a dog on his back and holding them there. And using a chokeer or prong collar can be used with the right dog, say a husky, never a small dog, and it has to be properly used, which alot of people do not know how to use them properly. Also, that using your hand to snap at the dog is just absurd!!

Dog you own a big dog....and how many years did you teach dog class & what type did you teach...

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Erin

Dr. Beach's study proved this in the last link I gave.

Here is another article citing Ian Dunbar regarding the study of dog pack behavior. http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../Debunking.pdf (Be careful, it's a PDF and slower to open.)

I believe that you have made it your personal mission to discredit Cesar Milan. When a person becomes overly passionate, they loose their ability to be objective.

Any training method can cause negative results if it is done incorrectly. So other people using Cesar's methods with bad results, does not prove that Cesar's method are bad. Cesar himself gets good results without abuse or physical punishment.

Touching a dog and saying shhhhhhhht is by no means abusive. The methods he uses for vicious dogs ar totally different. When the dog bites the owner, or the trainer, physical dominance is the only recourse. That is common sense. Most traing books do not address this issue.

I have used his methods and they work for my dogs. That is proof enough for me. I have also used other methods that have worked well.

I am curently reading a book written by Thomas Knott. He does not believe in giving food as a reward. He believes that praise and affection are the only rewards needed. Since I have never been fond of bribing a child or an animal, I think I will find his training methods agreeable to my own beliefs.

This, however does not mean that I think methods that reccomends food as a reward are ineffective.

You are on a mission to discredit Cesar Milan, you said that yourself. I believe his results are all the proof that he needs.

I also believe there are other methods that are just as effective, for the well balanced dogs. However, for an unbalanced dog, in an environment where the dog runs the house, no method is going to work. This is the problem that Cesar specializes in, correcting the people.

That is the only thing that Cesar claims. He fixes the people, once that is done, any training method will work if done correctly, and will also produce negative results if done incorrectly.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Erin

Dr. Beach's study proved this in the last link I gave.

Here is another article citing Ian Dunbar regarding the study of dog pack behavior. http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../Debunking.pdf (Be careful, it's a PDF and slower to open.)

I have read both of those articles, and I believe that you have the wrong idea of what Cesar Milan teaches. He does not believe in physical force or rolling a dog onto it's back to show dominance. He only forces a dog down, as a consequence of biting. A dog that bites cannot be trained by conventional methods.

In fact what I got out of those articles pretty much agree with what Cesar teaches. He says that size has nothing to do with who is the pack leader, it is all psycological. It is the one who stands their ground and does not allow another to push him around. He likens it to the high school popular kid that is very standoffish and everyone flocks around trying to be in their favor, not to a bully who rules by force. Those who are agressive and forcefull are unbalanced.

He only uses force on what he terms as "Red Zone Dogs", and those he takes back to his pack to let the other dogs teach them proper pack behavior. But those are the exception, not the rule.

I am interested in hearing how Pat Miller advocates that a vicious dog should be handled.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I have read both of those articles, and I believe that you have the wrong idea of what Cesar Milan teaches. He does not believe in physical force or rolling a dog onto it's back to show dominance. He only forces a dog down, as a consequence of biting. A dog that bites cannot be trained by conventional methods.

Counter conditioning, desensitization and behavior modification can be used on dogs that bite. You can't say he doesn't believe in forcing a dog down except in this situation or that. Forcing a dog down (ESPECIALLY a fearful biter) is not a good option. It makes them more fearful or makes them think they need to bite HARDER next time.

Choke chains are physical force.

Not having access to the recent new episodes, just watching ONE clip on Cesar's site - the one with Brady and the pool - you can see how stressed the dog is. His tail is down, he is panting (I bet not because he's hot) and he's whining. If Loki's trainer were teaching her dog not to jump in the pool the dog would be sitting politely but eagerly watching her, tail up and wagging, awaiting her command to jump in the pool. He forced that dog to submit to him, saying "The more they shake, they can only shake for so long and then they go into the peaceful state." I believe that's called flooding and it's not "peaceful" It's a dog's version of crying uncle - saying "I give up". And that dog looked like he went from loving the pool to being afraid of it, just based on his body language. I don't even have a trained eye and I picked up stress signals. At the very least he was extremely confused.

He also used flooding on Nuno the Chi and on a Doxie. (Also force.) He also used a choke chain on a doxie! And what is with the clip of the lady dragging the Basset across the street?? I hope that was a before, not an after! I'm wondering how these dogs can trust their owners after any of this?

Just watching those clips makes me sick to my stomach.

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I am interested in hearing how Pat Miller advocates that a vicious dog should be handled.

The first option for anyone with a "vicious" dog should be immediately meeting with an animal behaviorist to determine the problem, probably after ruling out any medical reason. They should not be handling it on their own. Otherwise, according to one of her books, you manage the behavior and work on modifying the behavior. If you really are interested, join the Peaceable Paws Yahoo! Group. (It's a fast moving email list with a lot of professional trainers, but anyone is welcome to join. They have a lot to share.) All of the positive training books I've read say pretty much the same thing. Determine cause of behavior and work hard to modify it. Using conditioning you can teach your dog that "bad" things are really "good" things. There's a lot more to it, which is why I have so many books. And it takes a long time. There are no quick fixes, despite what you see on TV.

[peanut]

Originally Posted by Erin

Counter conditioning, desensitization and behavior modification can be used on dogs that bite. You can't say he doesn't believe in forcing a dog down except in this situation or that. Forcing a dog down (ESPECIALLY a fearful biter) is not a good option. It makes them more fearful or makes them think they need to bite HARDER next time.

Choke chains are physical force.

Not having access to the recent new episodes, just watching ONE clip on Cesar's site - the one with Brady and the pool - you can see how stressed the dog is. His tail is down, he is panting (I bet not because he's hot) and he's whining. If Loki's trainer were teaching her dog not to jump in the pool the dog would be sitting politely but eagerly watching her, tail up and wagging, awaiting her command to jump in the pool. He forced that dog to submit to him, saying "The more they shake, they can only shake for so long and then they go into the peaceful state." I believe that's called flooding and it's not "peaceful" It's a dog's version of crying uncle - saying "I give up". And that dog looked like he went from loving the pool to being afraid of it, just based on his body language. I don't even have a trained eye and I picked up stress signals. At the very least he was extremely confused.

He also used flooding on Nuno the Chi and on a Doxie. (Also force.) He also used a choke chain on a doxie! And what is with the clip of the lady dragging the Basset across the street?? I hope that was a before, not an after! I'm wondering how these dogs can trust their owners after any of this?

Just watching those clips makes me sick to my stomach.



The first option for anyone with a "vicious" dog should be immediately meeting with an animal behaviorist to determine the problem, probably after ruling out any medical reason. They should not be handling it on their own. Otherwise, according to one of her books, you manage the behavior and work on modifying the behavior. If you really are interested, join the Peaceable Paws Yahoo! Group. (It's a fast moving email list with a lot of professional trainers, but anyone is welcome to join. They have a lot to share.) All of the positive training books I've read say pretty much the same thing. Determine cause of behavior and work hard to modify it. Using conditioning you can teach your dog that "bad" things are really "good" things. There's a lot more to it, which is why I have so many books. And it takes a long time. There are no quick fixes, despite what you see on TV.

I sorry I don't argee with you...do you own a dog that weights over 100 pounds....I just started to use the prong choke, I have only had to pull on it twice in the past week, Max already knows....I love my dogs more than anything, and if your trying to tell me I am cruel...I am sorry I am not!

[Erin]

Originally Posted by peanut

I sorry I don't argee with you...do you own a dog that weights over 100 pounds....I just started to use the prong choke, I have only had to pull on it twice in the past week, Max already knows....I love my dogs more than anything, and if your trying to tell me I am cruel...I am sorry I am not!

Did you try an Easy Walk or Sense-ible harness? I don't have a big dog, but I walk my neighbor's 100 pound lab mix occasionally and he about pulled my arm off until I bought him a harness and taught him how to walk on it.

Oh, and my trainer has labs and they all not only don't use choke collars but they walk, and heel, OFF leash. We learned how in class. All the big dogs did it too.

[peanut]

I will not get into a debate with you, but for the record I have 7 friends that are professional trainers, 4 that have published books, so I have there advice to go on...Max walks on a regular collar in our subdivision...but when we are out in public place, I put it on him because he was still pulling and wanting to chase cats...for his welfare of not getting ran over in the streets or worse..the vet, breeder and trainers have all suggest the prong choke..& when they are in training the have to wear a regular choke...I not talking basic obedience either...

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Erin

The first option for anyone with a "vicious" dog should be immediately meeting with an animal behaviorist to determine the problem, probably after ruling out any medical reason. They should not be handling it on their own. Otherwise, according to one of her books, you manage the behavior and work on modifying the behavior. If you really are interested, join the Peaceable Paws Yahoo! Group. (It's a fast moving email list with a lot of professional trainers, but anyone is welcome to join. They have a lot to share.) All of the positive training books I've read say pretty much the same thing. Determine cause of behavior and work hard to modify it. Using conditioning you can teach your dog that "bad" things are really "good" things. There's a lot more to it, which is why I have so many books. And it takes a long time. There are no quick fixes, despite what you see on TV.

Cesar Milan never says there are quick fixes for vicious dogs. You said to work on the problem. OK how. What do you do if your 120 pound dog has calimed the sofa and and bites at you if you try to make him get off.

You have not given any specific examples. Just generalizations. What if my dog does not fit into your box.

Cesar corrects the people. Once the people are corrected they can train the dog by any method they choose.

Until you have personally watched your trainer deal with a behavior problem, you really don't know how they would deal with it or how the animal would react. These are not simple problems with simple fixes. And they don't all react in textbook fashion.

Lets take your trainer and put her in front of a camera with a vicious dog and see how she deals with it and how tail wagging friendly the dog is.

What you read in a book, and what happens in reality are not always the same.

There is a HUGE difference between theory and practic, and between being educated and intelligent. Educated people come up with theories, Intelligent people are able to take a theory and put it into practice.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by peanut

I will not get into a debate with you, but for the record I have 7 friends that are professional trainers, 4 that have published books, so I have there advice to go on...Max walks on a regular collar in our subdivision...but when we are out in public place, I put it on him because he was still pulling and wanting to chase cats...for his welfare of not getting ran over in the streets or worse..the vet, breeder and trainers have all suggest the prong choke..& when they are in training the have to wear a regular choke...I not talking basic obedience either...

It would be foolish and dangerous to do otherwise.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Erin

Did you try an Easy Walk or Sense-ible harness? I don't have a big dog, but I walk my neighbor's 100 pound lab mix occasionally and he about pulled my arm off until I bought him a harness and taught him how to walk on it.

Oh, and my trainer has labs and they all not only don't use choke collars but they walk, and heel, OFF leash. We learned how in class. All the big dogs did it too.

There are many dogs that do that. It prove nothing because you do not know how they were trained, and not every dog fits neatly into the box.

It would be foolish and dangerous to take a large breed untrained dog out into public without a choke or prong collar.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

There are many dogs that do that. It prove nothing because you do not know how they were trained, and not every dog fits neatly into the box.

It would be foolish and dangerous to take a large breed untrained dog out into public without a choke or prong collar.

These dogs - boxers, labs, etc. ALL went from pulling with all their might to walking on a loose leash on a collar with distractions by the end of the 8 week class. No choke collars involved. I do know how they were trained, I was in class with them.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Erin

These dogs - boxers, labs, etc. ALL went from pulling with all their might to walking on a loose leash on a collar with distractions by the end of the 8 week class. No choke collars involved. I do know how they were trained, I was in class with them.

Were they aggressive towards other dogs and people?

[peanut]

Originally Posted by Erin

These dogs - boxers, labs, etc. ALL went from pulling with all their might to walking on a loose leash on a collar with distractions by the end of the 8 week class. No choke collars involved. I do know how they were trained, I was in class with them.

Thats the whole point, they were in class, Max isn't aggressive but when you walking on a street or in a crowd of people or around 30 to 50 different dogs that are not little dogs, you just have to make sure they are under control, I can let Max run off lease and he comes to me no problem, but when we are in public dogs act totally different, there are so many different distractions that you can't plan on and being only 4 1/2 months old he wouldn't hurt any one but I don't want him attacked because a dog that young attacked will become aggressive from fear. Lets put it this way when I am out with Lexie or Peanut, I expect other people to have there bigger dogs under control, I wouldn't want a dog jumping on my little dogs just because they are on a regular collar and pulling there owner, when you are being pulled and the dog has the lead, you don't have to much control of him...You take those dogs that are 8 weeks trained and put a live animal like a rabbit, cat or squirrel in the yard and you can tell me that they will not try to chase them. and on a regular collar when they start to run or the owner jerks them back you are doing more damage to the throat then you will do with just on pull on a prong collar..Like I said now I don't even have to pull on Max's anymore he knows, but when we are in public place I will not take the chance, so I will always put his prong on, until we are completely done with the Schutzhund and he is titled..The biggest thing is respect..I respect Max so much not to let him get hurt by himself or other animals and he respects me to be his protector...

[browniesmom622]

everything becomes a debate !

[peanut]

Originally Posted by browniesmom622

everything becomes a debate !

Boy are you not kidding!!! I am just trying to make the best healthy & sound dog I can, if the way I am training upsets some, then I am sorry, I know my dog the best and thats what I am trying to do...everyone has there opinions, It the same way with rearing children, everyone is alway going to disagree. I just want to make sure if you meet me out you will see and say, that Max is happy, healthy, and well minded where he is safe and happy, not a aggressive, threat to him or you....