What training style do you practice?

[ARCHIE]

I have taken Bud to puppy classes and then just worked with him myself.
He learns very fast. He can sit, stay, down, roll over, walk by me and sit
when I stop and continue when I continue. He comes when asked to
and can now do the crawl. All I have done is use his kibble (so he doesn't get
extra calories). After he catches on I give him less and less each time, therefore he does not expect it all the time. When I slap my palm he knows
to fetch his toy for catch. On the count of 1,2,3 he will sit up and beg.
We have done all this just playing for 1/2 hr every morning before I get
showered for work. Just have fun and forget all the do this, don't do that unless you have a problem dog. Were talking about a little dog not a
large one who needs strict obiedence to make it easier to handle him/her.
These Yorkies just love a challenge and they really enjoy learning everything
you can throw at them. Just have fun.

[Erin]

Pat Miller is not jealous of Cesar Milan. That is an absurd suggestion. Her entire life is devoted to the welfare of dogs and she was a successful businesswoman long before Cesar Milan came along.

People are putting choke chains are their dogs, TSST'ing/poking them, and making sure they do ridiculous things like walk behind them all in the name of Cesar Milan. Changing the terminology and calling it "assertive" rather than "dominant" doesn't change what he is doing.

These people are the experts. They have degrees up the wazoo in animal behavior and whatnot. They read the journals. Pat Miller is the training EDITOR for Whole Dog Journal. They know what to look for. They know what works. You might not see stress signals, but the experts see them and they know what to look for.

I do not understand the Cesar love. I don't believe it is a case of "what works for you." I think that if you screw up and give your dog a treat at the wrong time, you haven't ruined that dog and you can try again. I think if you use a choke collar or flooding, for example, you CAN ruin that dog - or at least lose it's trust. It is better to earn your dog's trust than it's fear. It's obvious that I can't reason with the Cesar lovers. I'm not qualified to go beyond stating my opinion and reiterate what I've read. But my trainer is qualified. And so are Pat Miller and Patricia McConnell. So I'm with them on this one.

[chachi]

I do Caesars methods along with some positive reinforcement. I have had alot of luck with caesars methods especially getting my dogs not to bark and walking properly. Another thing I have had luck with was his method of keeping the dog from charging through the door when you open it. Everyone has to find their own training method that works for them and their dogs.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by ARCHIE

I have taken Bud to puppy classes and then just worked with him myself.
He learns very fast. He can sit, stay, down, roll over, walk by me and sit
when I stop and continue when I continue. He comes when asked to
and can now do the crawl. All I have done is use his kibble (so he doesn't get
extra calories). After he catches on I give him less and less each time, therefore he does not expect it all the time. When I slap my palm he knows
to fetch his toy for catch. On the count of 1,2,3 he will sit up and beg.
We have done all this just playing for 1/2 hr every morning before I get
showered for work. Just have fun and forget all the do this, don't do that unless you have a problem dog. Were talking about a little dog not a
large one who needs strict obiedence to make it easier to handle him/her.
These Yorkies just love a challenge and they really enjoy learning everything
you can throw at them. Just have fun.

That's awesome! Bud sounds really cute! Loki has so much fun with "homework" too. Loki has a problem with fetch (he wants to eat the toy) so I just open and close my palm and say "I can't reach it!" and he puts it in my hand. Don't you love when they learn a trick in an afternoon? I just taught Loki to wave and it melts my heart every time he does it, it's SO cute.

[Erin]

Here's a great article from ClickerSolutions. This is also a great website with a TON of information.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../dominance.htm
www.clickersolutions.com

[browniesmom622]

Originally Posted by chachi

I do Caesars methods along with some positive reinforcement. I have had alot of luck with caesars methods especially getting my dogs not to bark and walking properly. Another thing I have had luck with was his method of keeping the dog from charging through the door when you open it. Everyone has to find their own training method that works for them and their dogs.

same here i agree 100 %

[Erin]

Originally Posted by browniesmom622

same here i agree 100 %

The problem is that the general public, without reading training books and/or taking a class, might not be able to distinguish what is OK and what is very bad from what Cesar does. Well meaning people follow him - they just want to train their dogs. It makes fixing these problems look easy and it's not. Training some dogs takes a lifetime and I don't think his show is realistic and yes I think there are better methods out there. I just wish people would stop defending him when the experts are out there with so many words of caution. I've posted articles, book references and more. I see no references from the other side...

[ARCHIE]

Originally Posted by Erin

That's awesome! Bud sounds really cute! Loki has so much fun with "homework" too. Loki has a problem with fetch (he wants to eat the toy) so I just open and close my palm and say "I can't reach it!" and he puts it in my hand. Don't you love when they learn a trick in an afternoon? I just taught Loki to wave and it melts my heart every time he does it, it's SO cute.

LOL - I be he looks adorable waving. Thanks, going to try that one with
Buddy.

[MyTrixie143]

Originally Posted by Erin

I disagree with Cesar's training methods. They are old, outdated, many are proven to be bogus and many of the dogs look stressed and/or fearful. Forcing your dog to submit to you, rather than teaching them the proper way to behave, is quite lazy IMO. Considering so many people on this board will jump on someone for using a collar on their yorkie, I'm surprised so many will stand up for Cesar when he advocates using collar correction.

We use positive reinforcement (basically clicker with a "YES!" instead of a click) and treats. There is a difference between a "reward" and a "bribe". We have done 6 different training classes from puppy class to canine good citizen. It's fun. I don't like traditional harnesses so I use an Easy Walk by Premier on Loki. He has learned how to walk on a loose leash so the harness isn't necessary, but I still prefer to walk him on it for longer distances, places with distractions, etc. My trainer only discouraged traditional harnesses because they encourage pulling. Most of our work was done off leash anyway, except leash walking, and there was no correction. Many people continued to use harnesses or switched to Easy Walks with no problem, as long as they taught their dog not to pull.

BTW there is a difference between "leadership" and "dominance" and you don't have to be dominant to be the leader. As the leader, all the good things come from you. You ask your dog to sit before feeding him, sharing a toy with him, or taking him for a walk. You don't "own" the good things, you control them. If you dog behaves he gets good things. If he does not he gets ignored. We also use time-outs in the crate. With positive reinforcement you teach your dog how you want him to behave. You reward good behavior, and therefore see more of it.

If you would like some book suggestions, I would start with Pat Miller's books. Positive Perspectives or The Power of Positive Dog Training. Everyone should read The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. If you are interested specifically in clicker training, read Karen Pryor's book. I am currently reading Bones Would Rain by Suzanne Clothier - more philosophy/stories than training but it's really good. Also look for Ian Dunbar, Turid Rugrass & Jean Donaldson.

By the way, putting a choke or prong collar on the wrong dog actually can make the dog fearful. Say the dog lunges for a kid (happily, to greet the kid) then you use the choke collar. The dog now associates PAIN with CHILDREN. Do this a few dozen times and your dog could develop a fear or agression towards kids that did not exist before. It is time consuming, though not difficult, to teach your dog to walk on a loose leash. It involves a lot of stopping, starting and rewarding. We learned this in class and practiced every day for about 3 weeks. You have to learn this in Canine Good Citizen - I would suggest that class to everyone!

You took the words right out of my mouth!!! Excellent post, I agree with you 100 percent.

When I taught dog classes, I always used positive reinforcement, not that crap that Cesear uses. His method simply does not work and cruel in my opinion. I even had some people come in for classes after they tried Cesear's way, which only made the dog worse by using Ceaser's methods. So yes it has been proven, and I have seen it first hand, that Cesear's methods do not work and only leads to more problems!!! It has made many dogs fearful and agressive.
The worst thing is putting a dog on his back and holding them there. And using a chokeer or prong collar can be used with the right dog, say a husky, never a small dog, and it has to be properly used, which alot of people do not know how to use them properly. Also, that using your hand to snap at the dog is just absurd!!

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Erin

Pat Miller is not jealous of Cesar Milan. That is an absurd suggestion. Her entire life is devoted to the welfare of dogs and she was a successful businesswoman long before Cesar Milan came along.

People are putting choke chains are their dogs, TSST'ing/poking them, and making sure they do ridiculous things like walk behind them all in the name of Cesar Milan. Changing the terminology and calling it "assertive" rather than "dominant" doesn't change what he is doing.

These people are the experts. They have degrees up the wazoo in animal behavior and whatnot. They read the journals. Pat Miller is the training EDITOR for Whole Dog Journal. They know what to look for. They know what works. You might not see stress signals, but the experts see them and they know what to look for.

I do not understand the Cesar love. I don't believe it is a case of "what works for you." I think that if you screw up and give your dog a treat at the wrong time, you haven't ruined that dog and you can try again. I think if you use a choke collar or flooding, for example, you CAN ruin that dog - or at least lose it's trust. It is better to earn your dog's trust than it's fear. It's obvious that I can't reason with the Cesar lovers. I'm not qualified to go beyond stating my opinion and reiterate what I've read. But my trainer is qualified. And so are Pat Miller and Patricia McConnell. So I'm with them on this one.

I never disagreed with the fact that there are other qualified trainers out there. Or that Pat Miller is an excellent dog trainer. I have never read her books or seen her in action, so I am not qualified to make that judgement.

What I did disagree with, was the statement that is was PROVEN that Cesar's methods are bogus. I just asked for the proof.

I also asked you twice if you had ever actually watched the show. Since you have not answered, I am guessing that the answer is no. I challenge you to watch the show and then make up your own mind and not just take someone else's word for it. Because for every well educated, professional that you find that does not agree with Cesar's methods, I can find one that does.

I believe that he has saved many dogs from being put down, by his methods of rehabilitaion. When dealing with a vicious dog, one cannot use kid gloves.

I've enjoyed the discussion, but until you actually watch the show and have some specifics to discuss, rather than someone else's generalizations, there is no point in continuing this debate.

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by chachi

I do Caesars methods along with some positive reinforcement. I have had alot of luck with caesars methods especially getting my dogs not to bark and walking properly. Another thing I have had luck with was his method of keeping the dog from charging through the door when you open it. Everyone has to find their own training method that works for them and their dogs.

The charging the door has been my biggest accomplishment using his method. My guys both sit and wait to be told that it is OK to go through the door. It sure is better than chasing them down the street with a treat begging them to come back.

[Erin]

Originally Posted by JeanieK

I never disagreed with the fact that there are other qualified trainers out there. Or that Pat Miller is an excellent dog trainer. I have never read her books or seen her in action, so I am not qualified to make that judgement.

What I did disagree with, was the statement that is was PROVEN that Cesar's methods are bogus. I just asked for the proof.

I also asked you twice if you had ever actually watched the show. Since you have not answered, I am guessing that the answer is no. I challenge you to watch the show and then make up your own mind and not just take someone else's word for it. Because for every well educated, professional that you find that does not agree with Cesar's methods, I can find one that does.

I believe that he has saved many dogs from being put down, by his methods of rehabilitaion. When dealing with a vicious dog, one cannot use kid gloves.

I've enjoyed the discussion, but until you actually watch the show and have some specifics to discuss, rather than someone else's generalizations, there is no point in continuing this debate.

I have seen the show. I don't watch it on NG since I don't have that channel, but I HAVE seen the show. However I don't choose to watch it on a regular basis. And I've given plenty of specifics... I simply quote those people because they are more qualified to analyze him and can say it far more eloquently than I can. I don't see specifics coming from you because there aren't any. Being "calm and assertive" is not going to solve anyone's problems. I give plenty of "specifics" on this site trying to help people do everything from housetrain to leash walking. I don't recommend they watch a TV show.

As far as charging out the door, my dog doesn't do that either. Because I taught him what SIT and STAY and WAIT means using positive methods. Why would anyone choose to "correct" their dog when they can just ask for a simple command??

[JeanieK]

Originally Posted by Erin

I have seen the show. I don't watch it on NG since I don't have that channel, but I HAVE seen the show. However I don't choose to watch it on a regular basis. And I've given plenty of specifics... I simply quote those people because they are more qualified to analyze him and can say it far more eloquently than I can. I don't see specifics coming from you because there aren't any. Being "calm and assertive" is not going to solve anyone's problems. I give plenty of "specifics" on this site trying to help people do everything from housetrain to leash walking. I don't recommend they watch a TV show.

As far as charging out the door, my dog doesn't do that either. Because I taught him what SIT and STAY and WAIT means using positive methods. Why would anyone choose to "correct" their dog when they can just ask for a simple command??

I didn't use specifics because I am not the one that said his methods were PROVEN to be bogus. You are the one that made the generalization, and I asked for specifics so we could both be discussing the same thing. It's like going into court, you made the accusation, so the burden of proof is on you, not me.

As for training my dog not to charge the door. I simply used the touch method that Cesar does. I did not kik, hit, beat, yell or use a choke chain. No physical force was involved at all. And no treats either.

They also follow me when I walk and stop when I stop and there was not even a leash involved in that. They do it simply becuase they respect me as the pack leader, and pack leaders dont give treats. Dogs don't even expect treats until we teach them that they should be rewarded for doing what is expected of them. And when they need to be reminded, all it takes is a tsssssssst and point a finger.

BTW, I never gave allowances to my children either. They did their chores simply because they were part of the family and it was expected of them. They were never beaten or bribed.

[chachi]

For the charging out the door Caesar just taught you to teach your dog to stay so far away from the door untill after you opened it and shut the door. There were no corrections. For walking there are corrections but I dont use a collar I walk with a harness so the correction is mild. I can see how a collar is needed for bigger dogs though. My dogs arent fearful. I just know I am an average joe person and I tried some of his methods and they worked for me where using treats and rewarding for some of the things wasnt working. My dogs well behaved and I have taught them all kinds of tricks also using treats as rewards so I also see the benefit of positive reinforcement. Also I wanted too say using your hand as if you are biting the dog with it does work to keep them from biting I have done it.

[Erin]

Dr. Beach's study proved this in the last link I gave.

Here is another article citing Ian Dunbar regarding the study of dog pack behavior. http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../Debunking.pdf (Be careful, it's a PDF and slower to open.)